Seb Ross

[CQ SAINT]

So saying the coaches didn't love Ross is also stating they didn't love Billings or Gresham with all three polling around the same amount of votes.

This is clearly bulls***.

And they must hate Marshall, Membrey and Dunstan if this line of crap is to be believed.

Also provides the reason Bruce was traded as the coaches must have absolutely despised him

f****** post of the year. NOT.

If this was a bar from a different era, my era being the 80's and 90's, this conversation would have ended a lot uglier than the sooky lala rantings of an ex-champion state league/VAFA park footballer, which I just find amusing. The internet is a safe environment for the world's sociopaths.

True, but you manage to be offensive towards BM all the same.

The internet might be a safe environment for sociopaths but it is not a safe environment for their victims. No wonder a number of prominent footballers and athletes have mental health issues.

BM brings it upon himself.
Loves an argument and wont back down. Is very timesone to see messages quoted and requoted.

Maybe. Sure BM doesn't accept that his opinions might be wrong and not widely shared, but neither do those who disagree with him. The offensiveness is not one sided nor restricted to BM as anyone who agrees with him is added to the insult list.

Not trying to be offensive myself but I don't know what "timesone "is. I suppose you mean "tiresome" which could apply to numerous posts in this thread.

i don't believe BM was trying to cause a s*** storm when he posted the OP.

"

I'm not sure if BM has been offended by anything I have written. I doubt he has actually taken in a lot of what I have written. He hasn't said so, but with you to speak for him Saynta, he doesn't have to. I similarly am.not offended by anything BM has posted. Why would I be?

I didn' t particularly have you in mind because I have little memory of your posts replying to BM

I do however have certain views about the usual suspects who enjoy putting s*** on and denigrating BM 's sporting achievements in both football and cricket.

To me they are impressive and therefore give me some confidence that he has some idea about his subjects.

I would think some of his critics have never been on a sporting field in any capacity other than as a spectator in their lives.

I know BM doesn't need me to speak for him and I don't presume to do so, but I don't like any poster being ganged up on when their views are credible.

Also his views on Seb are more in keeping with mine.

That's funny, quite a few of your posts have quoted mine and you directly accused me of being offensive to BM. Bloody tricky this internetty webbo thing hey Saynta.

Just shows how quiclquiclkly your posts are forgotten.

Yeah. Just like how quickly you forgot you weren't going to reply to me anymore. That's ok though. Writing a full paragraph was clearly a challenge for you and must have effected your fading memory.

[CQ SAINT]

So saying the coaches didn't love Ross is also stating they didn't love Billings or Gresham with all three polling around the same amount of votes.

This is clearly bulls***.

And they must hate Marshall, Membrey and Dunstan if this line of crap is to be believed.

Also provides the reason Bruce was traded as the coaches must have absolutely despised him

f****** post of the year. NOT.

If this was a bar from a different era, my era being the 80's and 90's, this conversation would have ended a lot uglier than the sooky lala rantings of an ex-champion state league/VAFA park footballer, which I just find amusing. The internet is a safe environment for the world's sociopaths.

True, but you manage to be offensive towards BM all the same.

The internet might be a safe environment for sociopaths but it is not a safe environment for their victims. No wonder a number of prominent footballers and athletes have mental health issues.

BM brings it upon himself.
Loves an argument and wont back down. Is very timesone to see messages quoted and requoted.

Maybe. Sure BM doesn't accept that his opinions might be wrong and not widely shared, but neither do those who disagree with him. The offensiveness is not one sided nor restricted to BM as anyone who agrees with him is added to the insult list.

Not trying to be offensive myself but I don't know what "timesone "is. I suppose you mean "tiresome" which could apply to numerous posts in this thread.

i don't believe BM was trying to cause a s*** storm when he posted the OP.

"

I'm not sure if BM has been offended by anything I have written. I doubt he has actually taken in a lot of what I have written. He hasn't said so, but with you to speak for him Saynta, he doesn't have to. I similarly am.not offended by anything BM has posted. Why would I be?

I didn' t particularly have you in mind because I have little memory of your posts replying to BM

I do however have certain views about the usual suspects who enjoy putting s*** on and denigrating BM 's sporting achievements in both football and cricket.

To me they are impressive and therefore give me some confidence that he has some idea about his subjects.

I would think some of his critics have never been on a sporting field in any capacity other than as a spectator in their lives.

I know BM doesn't need me to speak for him and I don't presume to do so, but I don't like any poster being ganged up on when their views are credible.

Also his views on Seb are more in keeping with mine.

That's funny, quite a few of your posts have quoted mine and you directly accused me of being offensive to BM. Bloody tricky this internetty webbo thing hey Saynta.

My bad.
Just shows how quickly your posts are forgotten.

And while I have your attention. Tell us all some stories about BM's sporting achievements. I bet he was an A grader and there are lots of memorable tales.

[saynta]

So saying the coaches didn't love Ross is also stating they didn't love Billings or Gresham with all three polling around the same amount of votes.

This is clearly bulls***.

And they must hate Marshall, Membrey and Dunstan if this line of crap is to be believed.

Also provides the reason Bruce was traded as the coaches must have absolutely despised him

f****** post of the year. NOT.

If this was a bar from a different era, my era being the 80's and 90's, this conversation would have ended a lot uglier than the sooky lala rantings of an ex-champion state league/VAFA park footballer, which I just find amusing. The internet is a safe environment for the world's sociopaths.

True, but you manage to be offensive towards BM all the same.

The internet might be a safe environment for sociopaths but it is not a safe environment for their victims. No wonder a number of prominent footballers and athletes have mental health issues.

BM brings it upon himself.
Loves an argument and wont back down. Is very timesone to see messages quoted and requoted.

Maybe. Sure BM doesn't accept that his opinions might be wrong and not widely shared, but neither do those who disagree with him. The offensiveness is not one sided nor restricted to BM as anyone who agrees with him is added to the insult list.

Not trying to be offensive myself but I don't know what "timesone "is. I suppose you mean "tiresome" which could apply to numerous posts in this thread.

i don't believe BM was trying to cause a s*** storm when he posted the OP.

"

I'm not sure if BM has been offended by anything I have written. I doubt he has actually taken in a lot of what I have written. He hasn't said so, but with you to speak for him Saynta, he doesn't have to. I similarly am.not offended by anything BM has posted. Why would I be?

I didn' t particularly have you in mind because I have little memory of your posts replying to BM

I do however have certain views about the usual suspects who enjoy putting s*** on and denigrating BM 's sporting achievements in both football and cricket.

To me they are impressive and therefore give me some confidence that he has some idea about his subjects.

I would think some of his critics have never been on a sporting field in any capacity other than as a spectator in their lives.

I know BM doesn't need me to speak for him and I don't presume to do so, but I don't like any poster being ganged up on when their views are credible.

Also his views on Seb are more in keeping with mine.

That's funny, quite a few of your posts have quoted mine and you directly accused me of being offensive to BM. Bloody tricky this internetty webbo thing hey Saynta.

My bad.
Just shows how quickly your posts are forgotten.

And while I have your attention. Tell us all some stories about BM's sporting achievements. I bet he was an A grader and there are lots of memorable tales.

How about you tell me about yours instead.

You need to be quick about it as I obviously quickly forget your posts.

[saynta]

So saying the coaches didn't love Ross is also stating they didn't love Billings or Gresham with all three polling around the same amount of votes.

This is clearly bulls***.

And they must hate Marshall, Membrey and Dunstan if this line of crap is to be believed.

Also provides the reason Bruce was traded as the coaches must have absolutely despised him

f****** post of the year. NOT.

If this was a bar from a different era, my era being the 80's and 90's, this conversation would have ended a lot uglier than the sooky lala rantings of an ex-champion state league/VAFA park footballer, which I just find amusing. The internet is a safe environment for the world's sociopaths.

True, but you manage to be offensive towards BM all the same.

The internet might be a safe environment for sociopaths but it is not a safe environment for their victims. No wonder a number of prominent footballers and athletes have mental health issues.

BM brings it upon himself.
Loves an argument and wont back down. Is very timesone to see messages quoted and requoted.

Maybe. Sure BM doesn't accept that his opinions might be wrong and not widely shared, but neither do those who disagree with him. The offensiveness is not one sided nor restricted to BM as anyone who agrees with him is added to the insult list.

Not trying to be offensive myself but I don't know what "timesone "is. I suppose you mean "tiresome" which could apply to numerous posts in this thread.

i don't believe BM was trying to cause a s*** storm when he posted the OP.

"

I'm not sure if BM has been offended by anything I have written. I doubt he has actually taken in a lot of what I have written. He hasn't said so, but with you to speak for him Saynta, he doesn't have to. I similarly am.not offended by anything BM has posted. Why would I be?

I didn' t particularly have you in mind because I have little memory of your posts replying to BM

I do however have certain views about the usual suspects who enjoy putting s*** on and denigrating BM 's sporting achievements in both football and cricket.

To me they are impressive and therefore give me some confidence that he has some idea about his subjects.

I would think some of his critics have never been on a sporting field in any capacity other than as a spectator in their lives.

I know BM doesn't need me to speak for him and I don't presume to do so, but I don't like any poster being ganged up on when their views are credible.

Also his views on Seb are more in keeping with mine.

That's funny, quite a few of your posts have quoted mine and you directly accused me of being offensive to BM. Bloody tricky this internetty webbo thing hey Saynta.

Just shows how quiclquiclkly your posts are forgotten.

Yeah. Just like how quickly you forgot you weren't going to reply to me anymore. That's ok though. Writing a full paragraph was clearly a challenge for you and must have effected your fading memory.

English not your strong suit?. I never said I was never going to reply to you again.

[BarryGrogan]

If one looks "objectively at the number of coaches votes Seb received ....

Cho gave coaches votes, remember.

Cho thinking a bloke played well isn't really solid evidence of anything.

Cho thought Newnes, Weller and Longer were awesome.

[saynta]

If one looks "objectively at the number of coaches votes Seb received ....

Cho gave coaches votes, remember.

Cho thinking a bloke played well isn't really solid evidence of anything.

Cho thought Newnes, Weller and Longer were awesome.

Isn't that stretching things a bit?

[Joffa Burns]

OK, back on topic.

I rate Ross B+, not on stats but from watching his influence on a game.
I think he's a very good player who probably boosts his efficiency by goiong short and sideways and taking some easier options and does not cause havoc by breaking the lines in a manner Steven did in his prime.

Here are my personal (I'm not an AFL stats man) rankings.
I'd like to see some others rank the same players and see the differences.

Elite
Bont, Danger, Fyfe, Martin, Grundy

A +
Zorko, Whitfield, Cripps, Neale, J Kelly, Gawn, Treloar, Coniglio, J.Kennedy (syd)

A grade
T. Kelly, McCrae, Yeo, Boak, Cotchin, Shiel, Hill, Merrett, Walters, R.Gray, Parker, Shuey, Gaff, Higgins, Oliver,

B+
Marshall, Ross, Billings, Gresham, Dunkley, Cunnington

# Perhaps I judge saints players harshly as I see them more regularly.
I would not be surprised if Billings, Gresham & Marshall all elevate themselves to genuine A graders next season.

I tend to feel Ross has just about peaked as a player, and he is a very good one IMO.

[BarryGrogan]

If one looks "objectively at the number of coaches votes Seb received ....

Cho gave coaches votes, remember.

Cho thinking a bloke played well isn't really solid evidence of anything.

Cho thought Newnes, Weller and Longer were awesome.

Isn't that stretching things a bit?

How so?

Cho had players, such as Ross playing roles that they weren't suited to.
Cho continued to play guys that were doing nothing.

We sucked arse under Cho. Largely due to the above.


Cho's idea of a guy playing well, were clearly misguided.

So when discussing whether a player played well or not, I wouldn't rate his opinion very highly at all.


Cho obviously believed that Ross running out of the middle and bombing floaters to the hot spot time and time again, only to see itneasily repelled by the opposition every time - was him playing well.

To me, it wasn't. It was him murdering the ball, wasting forward entries and effectively handing the ball back to the opposition (even though 50/50 bombs that ignored better targets are counted by Champion Data as 'Effective Disposals').

Cho was wrong. That's why he got sacked. His coaches votes mean f*** all.



Back to Ross.... his football in the last.month under Ratten was far better. The bombing subsided, and as a result we looked better as a team.

Therefore the question is: was Cho's rubbish coaching causing Ross to be average? Was he just following instructions from the coach?

If so, like many others on the list, he may look a far better player under Ratten.

[CQ SAINT]

OK, back on topic.

I rate Ross B+, not on stats but from watching his influence on a game.
I think he's a very good player who probably boosts his efficiency by goiong short and sideways and taking some easier options and does not cause havoc by breaking the lines in a manner Steven did in his prime.

Here are my personal (I'm not an AFL stats man) rankings.
I'd like to see some others rank the same players and see the differences.

Elite
Bont, Danger, Fyfe, Martin, Grundy

A +
Zorko, Whitfield, Cripps, Neale, J Kelly, Gawn, Treloar, Coniglio, J.Kennedy (syd)

A grade
T. Kelly, McCrae, Yeo, Boak, Cotchin, Shiel, Hill, Merrett, Walters, R.Gray, Parker, Shuey, Gaff, Higgins, Oliver,

B+
Marshall, Ross, Billings, Gresham, Dunkley, Cunnington

# Perhaps I judge saints players harshly as I see them more regularly.
I would not be surprised if Billings, Gresham & Marshall all elevate themselves to genuine A graders next season.

I tend to feel Ross has just about peaked as a player, and he is a very good one IMO.

Given most of my exposure to these other players is when they play the Saints or on Friday night's I wont argue with any of those ratings.
I'm just not sure that Marshall didn't display A grade output more often than not. His ability to drive the ball forward sets him streaks ahead of the 2 ruckman you have mentioned. I feel that may be a result of the mids around him. I rather he take the clearance and kick than pass it off to a lesser skilled player.
I also think in games against Gawn he has taken the advantage and caused havoc around the ground and in clearances, while evening out the actual taps by nullifying Gawns taps to advantage. Gawn is a clear A grader. Grundy is the better of the 3 and the elite ruckman in the comp.
I agree with your observations on Seb Ross too, but I would say his athletic ability has been the driving force behind his consistent form since the later parts of 2016. This is not a slur just my observations. His game play has been adjusted to get the most out of this ability.

[Joffa Burns]

OK, back on topic.

I rate Ross B+, not on stats but from watching his influence on a game.
I think he's a very good player who probably boosts his efficiency by goiong short and sideways and taking some easier options and does not cause havoc by breaking the lines in a manner Steven did in his prime.

Here are my personal (I'm not an AFL stats man) rankings.
I'd like to see some others rank the same players and see the differences.

Elite
Bont, Danger, Fyfe, Martin, Grundy

A +
Zorko, Whitfield, Cripps, Neale, J Kelly, Gawn, Treloar, Coniglio, J.Kennedy (syd)

A grade
T. Kelly, McCrae, Yeo, Boak, Cotchin, Shiel, Hill, Merrett, Walters, R.Gray, Parker, Shuey, Gaff, Higgins, Oliver,

B+
Marshall, Ross, Billings, Gresham, Dunkley, Cunnington

# Perhaps I judge saints players harshly as I see them more regularly.
I would not be surprised if Billings, Gresham & Marshall all elevate themselves to genuine A graders next season.

I tend to feel Ross has just about peaked as a player, and he is a very good one IMO.

Given most of my exposure to these other players is when they play the Saints or on Friday night's I wont argue with any of those ratings.
I'm just not sure that Marshall didn't display A grade output more often than not. His ability to drive the ball forward sets him streaks ahead of the 2 ruckman you have mentioned. I feel that may be a result of the mids around him. I rather he take the clearance and kick than pass it off to a lesser skilled player.
I also think in games against Gawn he has taken the advantage and caused havoc around the ground and in clearances, while evening out the actual taps by nullifying Gawns taps to advantage. Gawn is a clear A grader. Grundy is the better of the 3 and the elite ruckman in the comp.
I agree with your observations on Seb Ross too, but I would say his athletic ability has been the driving force behind his consistent form since the later parts of 2016. This is not a slur just my observations. His game play has been adjusted to get the most out of this ability.

Agree on Marshall, he was A grade last year IMO.
Needs to do it consistently, and I'm probably harsh because I'm a huge Marshall fan I think I may overrate him so I wound back the A to B+. Could mount an argument for Billings to be A grade as well.

[The Linton Street Flash]

Perhaps dud, you will be telling me how average our best player is because of you immense knowledge of the game, because obviously you know more than AFL coaches and officials...

Have a good read

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/milesto ... games/amp/

And I played State League footy champ, and A Grade VAFA, and EFL Div 1
Not sure what you’ve ever done, but that ain’t Park footy.

hahahahaha - oooooh BM played footy, wow!!!

We have a footy player amongst us.... OMG!!!

I know it's early days but this has to be an early contender for post of the year!

[The_Dud]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/02/13/ ... eficiency/

Wowee, it’s like Ross himself is saying the exact same thing most on here were.

But what would we know

[skeptic]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/02/13/ ... eficiency/

Wowee, it’s like Ross himself is saying the exact same thing most on here were.

But what would we know

How could an observation you make with your eyes be as valuable as 3 lines from the Herald ‘Credibility Files’ Sun

[saynta]

https://www.saints.com.au/news/563901/r ... oots-award

In part, article reads as follows;

"“Wimmera is a great place to grow up and it’s a real testament to the facilities, the coaching and all the sports we’re able to play there.”

The dual Trevor Barker Award winner’s acknowledgement comes off the back of his superb 2019 campaign, where he served as stand-in skipper for 17 games.

He topped St Kilda’s disposals, effective disposals, inside-50s, metres gained and score involvements to take out his second best-and-fairest.

Ross grew up in the Wimmera region plying his trade as an inside midfielder, before moving to Ballarat to increase his chances of being picked up by an AFL club.

The reliable on-baller was selected with pick No. 25 at the 2011 National Draft and has played 124 games for the Saints."

[Nick_BlueNRG]

Seb wouldn't get a game in most midfields as an attacking mid.

As a defensive mid however, he'd play in most. He's an A-Grade defensive mid.

He's a C-B offensive mid though.

Can't kick.

You are completely off the mark Barry. His kicking may not be elite but to say he can’t kick is ludicrous at best and downright stupid at worst.

[saynta]

Seb wouldn't get a game in most midfields as an attacking mid.

As a defensive mid however, he'd play in most. He's an A-Grade defensive mid.

He's a C-B offensive mid though.

Can't kick.

You are completely off the mark Barry. His kicking may not be elite but to say he can’t kick is ludicrous at best and downright stupid at worst.

For once we can agree. Seb topped St Kilda’s total disposals and also the number of effective disposals.

If Seb can't kick, then the rest of his teammates disposals must be diabolical.

[Secret Kiel]

The thing I find most interesting about Sebby's public musing about his strengths and weaknesses is how this impacted his assisted meters gained. It's a stat that is helping players improve their rankings and clearly the club was happy with that area of his game in 2019.

[CQ SAINT]

Ross has an awkward kicking action. It comes from his onesidedness. He has power, great burst speed and endurance. These are his strengths. Kicking is not one of them. Racking up possession is.
I'm glad it has been pointed out to him and think he can take the next step to elite by increasing his effective disposal tally by adding kicking to it and reduce his metres gained by ensuring his kicks (particularly inside 50) go directly to the advantage of a target. Just making KPIs wont cut it anymore.

[Secret Kiel]

Expect 'potential to score' stats to be highly valued by BR for his midfielders. Also expect the mechanism into F50 being the main tweak to our game plan hence the focus on 'potential to score' and 'expected score' stats being valued almost as much as scoring itself.

[Secret Kiel]

Ross has an awkward kicking action. It comes from his onesidedness. He has power, great burst speed and endurance. These are his strengths. Kicking is not one of them. Racking up possession is.
I'm glad it has been pointed out to him and think he can take the next step to elite by increasing his effective disposal tally by adding kicking to it and reduce his metres gained by ensuring his kicks (particularly inside 50) go directly to the advantage of a target. Just making KPIs wont cut it anymore.

increase 'assisted meters gained'.

KPIs are a massive focus at the club these days and why we have invested heavily in DOS and his department.

[BarryGrogan]

Seb wouldn't get a game in most midfields as an attacking mid.

As a defensive mid however, he'd play in most. He's an A-Grade defensive mid.

He's a C-B offensive mid though.

Can't kick.

You are completely off the mark Barry. His kicking may not be elite but to say he can’t kick is ludicrous at best and downright stupid at worst.

"I wasn’t happy with my long kicking. Last year I tended to kick it off my knee or shin a little bit because I’m just trying to boot the cover off it,” the Saints midfielder said.

“Halfway through last year I was just having an issue with my inside 50 kicking and it was all to do with the longer entries.

“I sat down with Brendon Lade, we worked out a way I could be more efficient for the team by playing within my realms. I’m a good short kick and it’s beneficial for the team a lot of the time to keep the ball in possession.

“You’ve just got to learn to work with what you’ve got and be able to manipulate certain situations to your advantage. Obviously, I’m just trying to hit the short option and swim between my flags."

So I'm not off the mark. It was clear as day that he can't kick. Even he knows it.


What is staggering though....is that Cho didn't pull him up on it!! I mean FFS. The average punter in the stands could see it - but the head coach just kept letting him roll with it.

Honestly, that is just appalling.

[Secret Kiel]

Seb wouldn't get a game in most midfields as an attacking mid.

As a defensive mid however, he'd play in most. He's an A-Grade defensive mid.

He's a C-B offensive mid though.

Can't kick.

You are completely off the mark Barry. His kicking may not be elite but to say he can’t kick is ludicrous at best and downright stupid at worst.

"I wasn’t happy with my long kicking. Last year I tended to kick it off my knee or shin a little bit because I’m just trying to boot the cover off it,” the Saints midfielder said.

“Halfway through last year I was just having an issue with my inside 50 kicking and it was all to do with the longer entries.

“I sat down with Brendon Lade, we worked out a way I could be more efficient for the team by playing within my realms. I’m a good short kick and it’s beneficial for the team a lot of the time to keep the ball in possession.

“You’ve just got to learn to work with what you’ve got and be able to manipulate certain situations to your advantage. Obviously, I’m just trying to hit the short option and swim between my flags."

So I'm not off the mark. It was clear as day that he can't kick. Even he knows it.


What is staggering though....is that Cho didn't pull him up on it!! I mean FFS. The average punter in the stands could see it - but the head coach just kept letting him roll with it.

Honestly, that is just appalling.

Read it again. He didn't say he can't kick. Actually he said he was a good short kick. Big difference.

[CQ SAINT]

Ross has an awkward kicking action. It comes from his onesidedness. He has power, great burst speed and endurance. These are his strengths. Kicking is not one of them. Racking up possession is.
I'm glad it has been pointed out to him and think he can take the next step to elite by increasing his effective disposal tally by adding kicking to it and reduce his metres gained by ensuring his kicks (particularly inside 50) go directly to the advantage of a target. Just making KPIs wont cut it anymore.

increase 'assisted meters gained'.

KPIs are a massive focus at the club these days and why we have invested heavily in DOS and his department.

KPI's don't account for much without quality control. More is not necessarily better. This is where Rath comes in and coaches step in. Seb will get better and everyone will notice.
'....we worked out a way we could be more efficient for the team....' interesting choice of words for a bloke who was leading all the stats.

[BarryGrogan]

Read it again. He didn't say he can't kick. Actually he said he was a good short kick. Big difference.

What's the difference?

That's like a sprinter saying 'I'm a good runner - I just f*** up when I try to run fast. I'm pretty good at running slow though.'

[Secret Kiel]

Ross has an awkward kicking action. It comes from his onesidedness. He has power, great burst speed and endurance. These are his strengths. Kicking is not one of them. Racking up possession is.
I'm glad it has been pointed out to him and think he can take the next step to elite by increasing his effective disposal tally by adding kicking to it and reduce his metres gained by ensuring his kicks (particularly inside 50) go directly to the advantage of a target. Just making KPIs wont cut it anymore.

increase 'assisted meters gained'.

KPIs are a massive focus at the club these days and why we have invested heavily in DOS and his department.

KPI's don't account for much without quality control. More is not necessarily better. This is where Rath comes in and coaches step in. Seb will get better and everyone will notice.
'....we worked out a way we could be more efficient for the team....' interesting choice of words for a bloke who was leading all the stats.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more. Coaching and good analytical and measuring tools go together at elite sporting clubs. You can't have one without the other. So the stat the coaches asked Seb to focus on was his assisted meters gained as apposed to his meters gained. So say Seb kicks, OR handballs backwards 5m to someone who then dispatches the ball forward 50m. That is 45m assisted meters gained by Seb. That is how they measured Seb last year to monitor how well Lade's coaching adjustment was working. That metric worked to massive effect at Hawthorn for the coaches and probably why the Hawks were well known for being great by foot. BR and DOS have formed a formidable team in the past.