Locks and openings round 1

[Joffa Burns]

on the topic of locks and round 1, looking at the back, mid and forward positions up for grabs, who are the players that will be worried about their position in the team.

On paper it looks like the backline is where most of the competition will be and I think DMac will struggle to get picked this year, it's a genuine make or break season for him and the challenge is huge with all of the players seemingly ahead of him.

Thankfully the midfield for the first time in over a decade also has competition for spots and I reckon Jack Sinclair will know he won't be an automatic selection in the midfield in 2020. Possibly will be trialled as a HF player. He's a good user of the ball especially by foot so Ratt's will give him a tick in that department however his challenge will probably be in lifting his possession rate which would have to increase by at least 5 per game to get near the numbers of the midfielders that will keep him out of the middle. Not an impossible task and if he can do that then our midfield will be well on the way to competing with the top 4 midfields in the comp.

In the forward line I think Dean Kent will need to improve on his 2019 to hold a spot in 2020. I suspect we will have a ferociously quick and manic forward line in 2020 and Kent might not make that grade.

Agree with above, given Ratts time at Hawthorn you would think he'd rate ball users highly so D Mac may struggle and Sinclair given opportunity. Webster and Roberton potentially coming back provide a bit more skill than D Mac. I guess Savage, Clark, Jones, Webster, Geary would all be ahead of him.I can't see them playing Geary and D Mac much together so I think he's not first choice.

Kent while straight line fast doesn't move well laterally or lay many tackles or pressure so I think he'll struggle as Butler, Lonie, Long, Sinclair, Gresham, Billings and others provide more flexibility than Kent and can also play further up the ground while Kent seems a one trick pony.

With Jones, Hill & Billings first choice wingers I think Sinclairs best option is high half forward or half back but we have plenty of backmen already.

[Joffa Burns]

B: Geary Carslile Roberton
HB: Clark Battle Savage
C: Hill Hannebury Jones
HF: Billings Howard Gresham
F: Membrey King Long
R: Marshall Steele Ross
I: Wilkie Butler ??? ???

Ryder, Sinclair, Coffield, Dunstan, Lonie, Webster, Parker

[skeptic]

Bit silly to suggest that Kent needs to step up to hold his spot...
He’d want to improve to even earn opportunity to get back into the team. IMO is behind Lonie, Long, Hind, Parker and especially Gresh if they move him back forward

[Secret Kiel]

If Gresh moves to a forward pocket at any time in 2020 then it more than likely means something has gone horribly wrong with either Gresh's career progression to a full time roll in the midfield or the abundance of ready made forward pocket players have been placed on the long term injury list, or have been killed by Kent.

[B.M]

Do you think Gresh had more impact in 2018 as a forward

Or in 2019 as a mid?

Not all peripheral players have to turn into Mids

S.Milne was an elite small forward... never played as a mid
Same with Schneider

I think Jade can roll through the middle as a rotation, but he as at his most damaging around goal.

I also think Hunter Clarke is a natural HB who may also rotate through the middle at times

Both lack the engine to be full time Mids and play their best footy elsewhere.

[Secret Kiel]

Gresh showed in 2018 he was capable of executing the FP role. You hear often that playing forward pocket is one of the hardest positions on the ground but I think it's a position that no longer allows you to select a player with only one trick. Milney was very good with his one trick but not capable of playing any other position. In 2019 Gresh showed he is well capable of playing in the midfield and capable of playing on a much bigger part of the ground than Milne ever did. Keeping Gresh anchored to the FPs might sell him short.

[Trev from the Bush]

Can't compare Gresham to Milne. You may not rate Milne as good a player as Gresham, I might rate Gresh his equal once he has kicked 576 goals from 275 games. Not bad for a player "with only one trick".

If what you say is true, Milney had one more trick than Gresh has shown to date.

[saynta]

Funny, I actually saw Milne have several runs on the ball.

[B.M]

Being up the ground as a forward, is very different to being onball

Milne rarely (if ever?) attended a centre bounce and ran through the midfield

Mainly because he was too valuable forward of the footy.

Greshams 35 goals in 2018 suggested to me that he’s a dangerous forward.

[skeptic]

Correct BM...
And what’s just as pertinent is that that role better suits his skill set. Gresh is more prone to fast, instinctive, explosive football and is capable of doing things around goal that Kent could only dream of.

The reason he needs to play there whilst occasionally running up the ground is because he can do the stuff others can’t.
This is the reason why the truly great forwards are generally regarded as the best players.

Take a guy like Stewart Loewe... could easily have had s great career as a CHB but which of the defenders at the Saints of his era could do what he did forward

[Secret Kiel]

What's the point of occasionally running up the ground if you don't know what to do once you get there. Have a look at any AFL player's bio to see what postion they play and more than likely you will see two postions stated. Midfielders who can play forward or back are way more valuable than a one dimensional FP or BP player.

[shanegrambeau]

So I take it Josh Battle is now a bonafide A Lister in anyone's team. What are his weak points?
I wanna cause I can't sort wood from trees. Talk about club propaganda. Here https://www.saints.com.au/news/253423/b ... t-equation

From the Saints says he is a smokey go B&F. He didn't win, not top 3,4,5...not even top ten. Hard to tell what's what from afar. Certainly the hyperbole wheels are spinning, so I assume any club news about Bytel, Steele, Hannebury, (Kent and Parker hyperbole Exhibit A100) needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Basically with any player whose perceived stock value is still up for grabs.

[Joffa Burns]

The thing with Gresham is he will be an average midfielder whilst probably decent at stoppages.

However forward of the centre he is very dangerous as he is creative and a guy who you would feel nervous at being one out against. This means he'll get a decent defender which will help the other forwards as he's not a guy you'll constantly zone off as he can do plenty of damage.

The game has been full of very good small medium forwards who don't have to be midfielders to validate their team value.

I didn't see Cyril, Milne, Eddie, Papley or Robbie Gray playing regularly in the midfield but all very good to great players. Yep they might roll into a stoppage or a centre bounce due to their skill level but they are not playing pure on-ball roles.

I see Gresham and Billings as being real weapons as high half forwards pushing up and playing deep when getting the right match up. While both are average pure mids I believe both could be A-grade to elite half forwards particularly with Jones and Hill running the wings and providing some real outside speed.

[B.M]

I would take an elite specialist over a good utility anyday

[Secret Kiel]

A good utility is considered elite by all AFL coaches. In fact elite players generally are utility players. They are interchangeable labels.

[B.M]

Dustin Martin Mid/Forward
Nat Fyfe Mid/Forward
Dangerfield Mid
Shuey Mid
McGovern KPD
Tom Lynch KPF
Selwood Mid
Pendlebury Mid
Bontempelli Mid/Forward
Cripps Mid
Hill Wing
Franklin KPF
Tom Mitchell Mid
Cunnington Mid
Gawn Ruck
Grundy Ruck
Oliver Mid
Boak Mid
Gray HF
Cotchin Mid
Kennedy Mid
Kennedy KPF
Turn HB
Cameron KPF
Cameron FP

Couple of dual position players - in the fact that they can rest forward to keep them on the ground because they are so good.
The rest generally play in the position they are best at playing.

List could go on

[Secret Kiel]

There's a fair bit of alternate facts in your list there BM

[Joffa Burns]

A good utility is considered elite by all AFL coaches. In fact elite players generally are utility players. They are interchangeable labels.

The above doesn't make any sense to me.

A good utility is considered elite by all AFL coaches.
Name one good utility that an AFL coach would consider elite (due to him being a utility)?

Elite players are elite!

In your scenario a good utility such as Crisp at Collingwood who plays half back but can run through the middle or a player like Rory Lobb who can play ruck and forward become elite due to their flexible positions?

Most times utilities are not good enough to lock down a permanent spot, example Blake Acres.

I agree with BM's summary.

[Secret Kiel]

A good utility is considered elite by all AFL coaches. In fact elite players generally are utility players. They are interchangeable labels.

The above doesn't make any sense to me.

A good utility is considered elite by all AFL coaches.
Name one good utility that an AFL coach would consider elite (due to him being a utility)?

Elite players are elite!

In your scenario a good utility such as Crisp at Collingwood who plays half back but can run through the middle or a player like Rory Lobb who can play ruck and forward become elite due to their flexible positions?

Most times utilities are not good enough to lock down a permanent spot, example Blake Acres.

I agree with BM's summary.

You make it sound like there are waiting lounges on an AFL field reserved for players who are not good enough to hold down a position.

Pretty sure if a player is not good enough to hold down a postion he doesn't stay on the field of play very long.

[B.M]

No, he gets thrown around in order to find a suitable role!

Of course the greatest players could play anywhere they want, but still usually master 1 position.

[Secret Kiel]

Yep and that's pretty much what I said BM, elite players are usually players who can play many positions.

Players get thrown around because the coach thinks they might be able to hold down the position based on a skill set or strengths that match the position, they usually try not to work on trial and error or hit and hope, well not at the elite level.

[Joffa Burns]

Yep and that's pretty much what I said BM, elite players are usually players who can play many positions.

Players get thrown around because the coach thinks they might be able to hold down the position based on a skill set or strengths that match the position, they usually try not to work on trial and error or hit and hope, well not at the elite level.

That’s not what I read, I read that you wrote “A good utility is considered elite by all AFL coaches” which makes little sense to me.

You are either elite or not, being good and versatile does not make you elite or I would suspect render all AFL coaches thinking you are elite.

[samuraisaint]

B: Geary Carlisle Howard
HB: Savage Battle Roberton
C: Steele Hannebury Hill
HF: Billings Membrey Gresham
F: Long King Lonie
R: Marshall, Jones, Ross
I/C Ryder, Webster, Clark
E: Coffield, Hind, Parker

Round 1 team could look something like that.
I would like to play N Brown, but against a big, mobile forward line like North have, a fit Carlisle and more mobile Battle to play in the key position posts seems a better option.

[Joffa Burns]

B: Geary Carlisle Howard
HB: Savage Battle Roberton
C: Steele Hannebury Hill
HF: Billings Membrey Gresham
F: Long King Lonie
R: Marshall, Jones, Ross
I/C Ryder, Webster, Clark
E: Coffield, Hind, Parker

Round 1 team could look something like that.
I would like to play N Brown, but against a big, mobile forward line like North have, a fit Carlisle and more mobile Battle to play in the key position posts seems a better option.

Agree on Savage, walk up start for me but many on here don't pick him in their potential teams.
Roberton and Wilkie are like for like but can we afford both?
Hard to leave Wilkie out when he was 6th (?) in B&F.

One more spot on your bench samuraisaint!
Butler, Wilkie, Sinclair, Paton, Webster, Dunstan, Coffield, Hind, Parker, Langlands?

Geary Howard Savage
Roberton Carslile Clark
(2 talls, 3 who can run out of defence and deliver and small lock down, back ups Wilkie, Battle and Paton)
Jones Hannebery Hill
(Pace on the wings and ball winning ability in the middle)
Billings Battle Gresham
(Skillful, running, dangerous half forward line getting up the ground and working back)
Membrey King Long
(Long/Lonie/Butler harassing and front and square to King & Membrey, expect King to be on his bike and interchanging roles with Membrey and Battle. Interestingly all 3 more comfortable on the lead than the contested pack which is where Ryder & Marshall may be used)

Marshall Steele Ross

Ryder, Wilkie, two of Lonie/ Sinclair/ Butler/ Paton

Really hope Coffield has a great pre-season and stamps himself as a round 1 starter.
No Ryder for me, but he didn't come to play at Sandy so I'm assuming he's a lock for R1.

[saynta]

Too early to pick.