Jack Bytel

[saynta]

" I'm just not sure that in the last 2 years, a St.kilda B&F amounts to a whole lot."

WOW, just WOW.

Ok. My apologies. But if Steven was in full flight what would be the accolade for Ross?

Apology accepted.

[B.M]

I would say 2018 b&f after 4 wins is less of achievement (Steven) than 2017 (11w) and 2019 (9w) Ross

Steven also won in 2013 when we won 6 games
Is that also a poor achievement

Hmm

Steven got 18 Brownlow votes in 2018 so I guess not.
Actually the best player in a poor team, can still be one of the best players in the game. Nothing can be done by one individual if his team is s***!

Robert Flower
Bob Skilton

[CQ SAINT]

I would say 2018 b&f after 4 wins is less of achievement (Steven) than 2017 (11w) and 2019 (9w) Ross

Steven also won in 2013 when we won 6 games
Is that also a poor achievement

Hmm

Steven got 18 Brownlow votes in 2018 so I guess not.
Actually the best player in a poor team, can still be one of the best players in the game. Nothing can be done by one individual if his team is s***!

Robert Flower
Bob Skilton

Seb Ross was at his best in 2018. His best just doesn't make a huge impact nor does it seem to be as inspiring as the stuff Steven does. Ross was getting more kicks, covering more ground and gaining more metres. He is by no means a hack but he will never be in my favourite player list. He just looks like an athlete rather than a footballer to me.

[damienc]

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 2=S&type=A

There is a distinct difference in the roles Ross and Dunstan play. Driven mostly by the difference in there mobility.

Statistically speaking there isn't that much difference except the obvious luxury Ross enjoys at stoppages because of the work Dunstan does and Ross's ability to burst into vacant space. The dramatic differences are in time on ground and uncontested possessions, resulting in a metres gained advantage to Ross.

The perceptions that Ross is a worthy B&F winner, while Dunstan is a simple plodder, to me, suggest the observer's lack insight on just how difficult Dunstans role is and how easy it is for an elite runner to accumulate possession.

I'd expect 10-15 more goals from a player with Ross's stats. Then he would be a real champion. If the perception is that he sets up play and contributes massively to the success of team plays then the observer's are buying into a myth created by lack of competition for his role and the resulting votes and accolades he receives. Billings is in a similar position.

Clark and Hill will most likely expose this this year because they win contested ball and use it more effectively to the advantage of team play. Ross may or may not improve with this type of support. Jones will assist Dunstan in his role because he attacks the contest the same way.

One thing for sure is that if all the blokes stay fit, we will control the play better and for longer in games.

I am liking your thinking.

[Nick_BlueNRG]

Dunstan is a plodder.

Not sure what the argument is.

You have absolutely no idea and typical of your moronic style of posting.

That's not very nice, Kells.

Dunstan is not a Plodder. Thanks for dobbing me in. One day ban, I can live with that.

If Dunstan is a plodder as you say, how good were you when you played in the AFL?

[B.M]

CQ

If Seb is so average

Why do the coaches, players and opposition rate him

Because if you were to tell them your synopsis of Ross
They would laugh at you

You don’t play 4 seasons as a starting mid in the AFL if you’re not a footballer
You don’t average 28ppg if you’re not a footballer
You don’t win 2 best and fairests if your not a good footballer
You don’t get 42 Brownlow votes if you don’t impact games
You don’t make an AA squad if you are not performing

And if Dunstan was as good as Ross... well he’d perform as well as Ross?

Your post is nonsensical

[CQ SAINT]

CQ

If Seb is so average

Why do the coaches, players and opposition rate him

Because if you were to tell them your synopsis of Ross
They would laugh at you

You don’t play 4 seasons as a starting mid in the AFL if you’re not a footballer
You don’t average 28ppg if you’re not a footballer
You don’t win 2 best and fairests if your not a good footballer
You don’t get 42 Brownlow votes if you don’t impact games
You don’t make an AA squad if you are not performing

And if Dunstan was as good as Ross... well he’d perform as well as Ross?

Your post is nonsensical

BM

I didn't say he was average. I think he is better than average but not A grade or even close. He is an exceptional athlete and an average footballer.
No doubt he has played at least 7 outstanding games in the last 80 but he has big skill and awareness deficiencies that prevent him from being A grade on a consistent basis.
Even if he averages 28 ppg for the next 4 years in the same manner he won't make A grade. He needs to do more with his 28ppg.
I didn't say Dunstan is as good as Ross. I said, based on their output and playing styles, that Ross isn't that much better than Dunstan. You call Dunstan a plodder and discount his 10th ranking at clearances as lucky. What does Ross rank top 10 In?
He made the AA squad in his breakout year. Hasn't made it since. Perhaps the selectors expect more? I do, don't you?.
I don't think the 20 best mids in the league, of which Ross is not one, would laugh at me at all. I think that in the modern era, they say what is expected. But I expect that they are all aware of his shocking onesidedness, his propensity to slow down to kick, and his consistent back tracking and inability to.make quick effective disposal when he wins contested footy. He has average skills and a better than average mark.

I don't rate him. Obviously you do.but don't put words into my mouth. Discredit my actual arguments if you like. I don't mind debate but I don't rate his brownlow votes or his B&F's and I think at least half of his disposals are wasted. I think he has benefited from a lack of competition from within an inexperienced and developing group and I hope to Christ that we can improve that or we will struggle for a lot longer.

[damienc]

CQ

If Seb is so average

Why do the coaches, players and opposition rate him

Because if you were to tell them your synopsis of Ross
They would laugh at you

You don’t play 4 seasons as a starting mid in the AFL if you’re not a footballer
You don’t average 28ppg if you’re not a footballer
You don’t win 2 best and fairests if your not a good footballer
You don’t get 42 Brownlow votes if you don’t impact games
You don’t make an AA squad if you are not performing

And if Dunstan was as good as Ross... well he’d perform as well as Ross?

Your post is nonsensical

BM

I didn't say he was average. I think he is better than average but not A grade or even close. He is an exceptional athlete and an average footballer.
No doubt he has played at least 7 outstanding games in the last 80 but he has big skill and awareness deficiencies that prevent him from being A grade on a consistent basis.
Even if he averages 28 ppg for the next 4 years in the same manner he won't make A grade. He needs to do more with his 28ppg.
I didn't say Dunstan is as good as Ross. I said, based on their output and playing styles, that Ross isn't that much better than Dunstan. You call Dunstan a plodder and discount his 10th ranking at clearances as lucky. What does Ross rank top 10 In?
He made the AA squad in his breakout year. Hasn't made it since. Perhaps the selectors expect more? I do, don't you?.
I don't think the 20 best mids in the league, of which Ross is not one, would laugh at me at all. I think that in the modern era, they say what is expected. But I expect that they are all aware of his shocking onesidedness, his propensity to slow down to kick, and his consistent back tracking and inability to.make quick effective disposal when he wins contested footy. He has average skills and a better than average mark.

I don't rate him. Obviously you do.but don't put words into my mouth. Discredit my actual arguments if you like. I don't mind debate but I don't rate his brownlow votes or his B&F's and I think at least half of his disposals are wasted. I think he has benefited from a lack of competition from within an inexperienced and developing group and I hope to Christ that we can improve that or we will struggle for a lot longer.

I think you are being a bit tough on Seb.

I also think he's a better player than you give him credit for.

But even if you are 100 percent correct, we are a very different footy team this year playing a very different style of footy.

That will be Ratten's gift.

I am also hoping that different style might be transformative for a number of St Kilda players including Seb.

[CQ SAINT]

It might be tough but he reminds me of Clinton Jones in a way. Jones was at least accountable for an opponent and played in much better company.

[stkfc1]

Ross is a good player. But that's all he is, which is fine but we need others to go past him. Honestly would he play in the Richmond starting midfield? West Coast? GWS? Close, but probably not. He'd get a guernsey and start on the bench as 2nd or 3rd rotation For us to take it to the next level ,that's where we need to improve. When Ross is coming 5th or 6th in the B&F, we'll be better team.

[Secret Kiel]

CQ

If Seb is so average

Why do the coaches, players and opposition rate him

Because if you were to tell them your synopsis of Ross
They would laugh at you

You don’t play 4 seasons as a starting mid in the AFL if you’re not a footballer
You don’t average 28ppg if you’re not a footballer
You don’t win 2 best and fairests if your not a good footballer
You don’t get 42 Brownlow votes if you don’t impact games
You don’t make an AA squad if you are not performing

And if Dunstan was as good as Ross... well he’d perform as well as Ross?

Your post is nonsensical

BM

I didn't say he was average. I think he is better than average but not A grade or even close. He is an exceptional athlete and an average footballer.
No doubt he has played at least 7 outstanding games in the last 80 but he has big skill and awareness deficiencies that prevent him from being A grade on a consistent basis.
Even if he averages 28 ppg for the next 4 years in the same manner he won't make A grade. He needs to do more with his 28ppg.
I didn't say Dunstan is as good as Ross. I said, based on their output and playing styles, that Ross isn't that much better than Dunstan. You call Dunstan a plodder and discount his 10th ranking at clearances as lucky. What does Ross rank top 10 In?
He made the AA squad in his breakout year. Hasn't made it since. Perhaps the selectors expect more? I do, don't you?.
I don't think the 20 best mids in the league, of which Ross is not one, would laugh at me at all. I think that in the modern era, they say what is expected. But I expect that they are all aware of his shocking onesidedness, his propensity to slow down to kick, and his consistent back tracking and inability to.make quick effective disposal when he wins contested footy. He has average skills and a better than average mark.

I don't rate him. Obviously you do.but don't put words into my mouth. Discredit my actual arguments if you like. I don't mind debate but I don't rate his brownlow votes or his B&F's and I think at least half of his disposals are wasted. I think he has benefited from a lack of competition from within an inexperienced and developing group and I hope to Christ that we can improve that or we will struggle for a lot longer.

I think you are being a bit tough on Seb.

I also think he's a better player than you give him credit for.

But even if you are 100 percent correct, we are a very different footy team this year playing a very different style of footy.

That will be Ratten's gift.

I am also hoping that different style might be transformative for a number of St Kilda players including Seb.

What is this different style we will be playing look like?

[SaintPav]

Dunstan is a plodder.

Not sure what the argument is.

You have absolutely no idea and typical of your moronic style of posting.

That's not very nice, Kells.

Dunstan is not a Plodder. Thanks for dobbing me in. One day ban, I can live with that.

If Dunstan is a plodder as you say, how good were you when you played in the AFL?

Nonsensical argument not worth responding to but this is rich. You’ve been bagging all things St Kilda for donkeys years.

It wasn't me who dobbed you in.

[saintspremiers]

Dunstan is a plodder.

Not sure what the argument is.

You have absolutely no idea and typical of your moronic style of posting.

That's not very nice, Kells.

Dunstan is not a Plodder. Thanks for dobbing me in. One day ban, I can live with that.

If Dunstan is a plodder as you say, how good were you when you played in the AFL?

Nonsensical argument not worth responding to but this is rich. You’ve been bagging all things St Kilda for donkeys years.

It wasn't me who dobbed you in.

Dunny, like Sebby, will appear to be far more effective with the additions of Jones & Hill.

Let’s stop the discussion until the season proper and see the effect those two new gun midfielders, along with Ratts input, will have.

[magnifisaint]

WTF does Seb Ross have to do with Jack Bytel?
Some of you guys love taking the tangent to the high road.

[B.M]

Because apparently Jack Bytel is already better than Seb Ross

[lewdogs]

If our list can stay relatively injury-free early, it will be interesting to watch the Sandringham midfield. Bytel, Langlands who seems fitter, Dunstan, Paton, Coffield. They could actually be half-decent if we get a good run.

[Joffa Burns]

Because apparently Jack Bytel is already better than Seb Ross

Yep and he's going to be better than Jimmy Bartel as well.

Plenty are picking him in their round 1 teams displacing seasoned well performed players.

I'll throw him out there as the most hyped Saintsational player of all time.

[CQ SAINT]

It takes a special footballer to impact early and demand a spot. I hope the coaches learnt from Marshall and Wilkies stoic seasons to have a little faith and the younger guys like Clark, Paton and Bytel understand the opportunity in front of them to break into an evolving midfield structure that should be vastly different to the last 3 years.

[Secret Kiel]

It takes a special footballer to impact early and demand a spot. I hope the coaches learnt from Marshall and Wilkies stoic seasons to have a little faith and the younger guys like Clark, Paton and Bytel understand the opportunity in front of them to break into an evolving midfield structure that should be vastly different to the last 3 years.

Marshall and Wilkie played senior footy before 2109.

Bytel has absolutely zero to nought's chances of being selected for round 1 and I'll be surprised if he gets a debut in the first half of the season. If he does it means the wheels have fallen off our season.

[CQ SAINT]

It takes a special footballer to impact early and demand a spot. I hope the coaches learnt from Marshall and Wilkies stoic seasons to have a little faith and the younger guys like Clark, Paton and Bytel understand the opportunity in front of them to break into an evolving midfield structure that should be vastly different to the last 3 years.

Marshall and Wilkie played senior footy before 2109.

Bytel has absolutely zero to nought's chances of being selected for round 1 and I'll be surprised if he gets a debut in the first half of the season. If he does it means the wheels have fallen off our season.

That doesn't change the fact that neither Marshall or Wilkie wouldnt have been starters round 1 in a full strength squad. When your team is struggling with injury and performance, good players will emerge, despite the tendancy to harbour reliability and consistency. The secret is once you establish a better level of skill within your squad you have to reset the bar and occasionally let talent preceed experience.

[Secret Kiel]

It takes a special footballer to impact early and demand a spot. I hope the coaches learnt from Marshall and Wilkies stoic seasons to have a little faith and the younger guys like Clark, Paton and Bytel understand the opportunity in front of them to break into an evolving midfield structure that should be vastly different to the last 3 years.

Marshall and Wilkie played senior footy before 2109.

Bytel has absolutely zero to nought's chances of being selected for round 1 and I'll be surprised if he gets a debut in the first half of the season. If he does it means the wheels have fallen off our season.

That doesn't change the fact that neither Marshall or Wilkie wouldnt have been starters round 1 in a full strength squad. When your team is struggling with injury and performance, good players will emerge, despite the tendancy to harbour reliability and consistency. The secret is once you establish a better level of skill within your squad you have to reset the bar and occasionally let talent preceed experience.

Yup. But Bytel is joining a sqaud that is now finals capable and with that comes a want for a coach to get stability and cohesion by settling down the best 22. Like I say, Bytel will stuggle to get a game in 2020 but if he does get a regular gig it probably means the wheels have fallen off.

[CQ SAINT]

I agree. But looking at the draw, it won't take long to see a need for either change or stability. I dont expect any young guys to be gifted starts but I have a strong feeling Bytel won't take long to knock the door down. He can run, tackle, kick, mark and is a contested ball beast. Forward back or in the middle. It will only take 5 or so games of VFL to tell.and like King, he has been waiting a while for his chance already.

[skeptic]

Because apparently Jack Bytel is already better than Seb Ross

Yep and he's going to be better than Jimmy Bartel as well.

Plenty are picking him in their round 1 teams displacing seasoned well performed players.

I'll throw him out there as the most hyped Saintsational player of all time.

Just my personal opinion...

The point that ppl think Bytel is better is just plain incorrect. It’s not about being better now. It’s not expecting him to play round one and be better than a myriad of other options.

If one concept characterised the Richo years the most... it is the notion that a consistently reliable mediocre performance was preferred then something that wouldn’t have been better right away but could have developed.

That’s why Weller, Newnes, Longer, and Hickey name a few were automatics for so long.

Me personally, my preference has always been to back the Clarkes, Coffields, Patons, Whites, etc that show early promise even if they stall a little bit along the way .

New coach, new year, new list... Bytel by all accounts is training well and they reckon he’ll be good... back him in.

[Secret Kiel]

What's Richo got to do with a discussion about Bytel?

Seems random.

[CQ SAINT]

What's Richo got to do with a discussion about Bytel?

Seems random.

It may be relevant to Rattens comments on intolerance to poor skill standards and the fact that Bytel came from the development league with huge wraps on his talent.
Marshall, Wilkie, Paton and Long all had State League experience and exposed senior form.
Bytel, if training at full swing may be the one you take a punt on. Im not sure Richo was that bad though. White seems to be the big victim but where is he now.
Nevertheless, the list has been well turned and there is a feeling of expectation brewing now. Might be best not to look back to that era.