Seb Ross

[The_Dud]

“I don’t think people underrate Seb”

The in the next sentence talk about all his deficiencies and compare him to the absolute elite of the competition.

I don’t think anyone is comparing him to Cripps, Mitchell, Bont, Martin, Fyfe etc... and I can tell you he doesn’t get paid nowhere near as much as they do.
But coming off a 14 Brownlow vote season in an average team, highlights he can mix it with most.

I love the down play of all the positives and highlight of any negatives to suit agendas

But at the end of the day, the coach(es) rate his last 3 seasons as outstanding first, second, first in the B&F and you cannot get away from that - so he’s doing something right - or do forumites know more than coaches?

I also was unaware the Mids were rated on goals kicked?
It’s one measurement out of plenty. Clearances, UPs and CPs, efficiency, GAs, Tackles, Bounces, Centre Clearances
All stats to measure output
Goals scored is one measure, Scott West one of the best Mids in his generation averaged 0.3gpg Sam Mitchell another of the very best Mids ever to play averaged 0.2gpg. Should I find a few more, How about Brownlow medallist and multiple B&F winner Matt Priddis at 0.3, even our own Jack Steele at 0.3gpg.
There is more to being a mid than kicking goals, nice if you can, but if you generate scores for others, that’s the key.

What skill he does possess, is that he can win the footy, which is the most important skill in footy, because without it your not even getting a kick!

And I just checked out his woeful kicking efficiency
At 72.9 for an inside Mid
Rated above average
But I suppose that stat is a waste of time if it doesn’t suit the argument.

Supporters believe coaches overrate Seb, therefore in my mind underrate him - and judging by this thread it’s ridiculous

So you say he’s an A-grader, but we’re not allowed to compare him to other A-graders??

No one’s underrating him, everyone has said he’s good, but not great. He’s a B-grader, and what’s stopping him from being an A-grader is he’s not damaging enough, which is what A-graders are.

The 3 A-grade players (all retired) you managed to find who don’t kick many goals STILL kick goals at a much higher rate than Seb. Are there any current A-grade mids who kick less goals than Seb?

And of course stats can be used to suit agendas, just like you’re doing. Hitting a player with a sideways 15m pass who’s all on his own goes down as an effective kick, just the same as pinpointing a player on the lead 50m down the ground. All effective possessions aren’t equal.

Lastly, B&Fs are one of the worst ratings on whether a player is great or not. Every team, from first to last, gives away a B&F every year. If you win one in a great team that says something, winning one in a team that hasn’t played finals in 8 years not so much. You could have a team of C-graders and one of them is going to win it, doesn’t mean they’re still not a C-grader tho.

So in conclusion, he’s good, a B-grader, but every team needs B-graders, and if he wants to be an A-grader he has to become much more damaging.

[Secret Kiel]

Yep absolutely correct about effective possession stat. On its own it is almost useless information. But read in combination with other stats it gives a much better measure if a player is executing his role in accordance with set plays. The derived and calculated stats and data coaches use to measure execution is something a lot of fans don't get to see, mostly because it's closely guarded IP and to discuss it in the public arena would be telegraphing your set plays.

So meters gained is now widely used by many AFL coaches but again on its own it is fairly useless data, but other derived stats like assisted meters gained which has infinite combinations and permeatations based on a coaches set plays is a much more useful stat. But fans will never seen these stats.

So back on Sebby and his 15m sideway passes it's impossible to know if he is executing a set play with this type of kick which then either follows on to the reciecer of that kick who then makes an effective pass 50 meters down the field thus adding 50m to Sebby's tally of assisted meters gained.

[The Barometer]

Ah...

Getting desperate talking about the quoting, I think you know I’m referring to you.. or you wouldn’t have replied.

Next you’ll be picking up spelling or grammar?!

Barometer
I rate him in a similar vein to the coaches

A quality player, best performed on our list (not best player)
I’d have him as an A Grade mid.

Nah not desperate at all. I’m ok with what I’ve posted. How are you going convincing everyone that they under rate Seb?

[B.M]

I would rate All Austs and B&Fs as the best measure of a players output

So he’s won a B&F in a team that’s won 11 games and another in a team that’s won 9 games

And made an All Aust squad which carries the best 10-12 Mids in the AFL that year. 5-6 get selected and 5-6 miss out.

So clearly that year he was A Grade?! To make the AA Squad clearly that’s the case

Are you saying you can’t have good players in poor teams?
Jack Steven is an example? Is he just average because he won 2 of his B&Fs in teams that won 4 and 6 games?
We better not rate Greg Burns at all, he won two in wooden spoon teams.

I would say that if you told B Ratten that Seb Ross was not an A Grade mid, he’d laugh at you, as would his team mates.

Cannot have an AFL team win NINE games in a season and their BEST player not be considered A Grade
Ridiculous thinking

They know a f***load more than you dud.

[B.M]

Oh

And do you rate Matt Crouch as a mid?

109 games
26 Goals 0.2 per game

[B.M]

Barometer,

Going by the number of people trying to convince me how Seb has no impact

I’d say I’m pretty accurate in suggesting Seb is underrated

He’s only got 42 Brownlow votes in 4 years in average teams and made an AA Squad

He’s clearly a crab

[SydneySainter]

Seb Ross is a solid player and would probably be in any other teams best 22.

Great accumulator of the footy, gets plenty of touches, just doesn’t hurt the opposition enough when he has it.

If we’re going to be realistic, in a strong team, he would be their third or perhaps even fourth best mid. Whereas in our team he’s our first.

[samoht]

Great accumulator of undue disrespect ... he goes okay.
He has more than lived up to his potential - he wasn't a number 1, he was draft pick 25 and not many players will develop into a Dustin Martin, a Fyfe or a Dangerfield.
We just need another 6 players to follow his lead, of a couple of years ago, and have themselves similar breakout years ... the opposition won't know what hit them, if that were to happen.

[B.M]

28ppg at 72% for an inside mid.

Best three players on the ground 21 times in the last 4 seasons

Best player on the ground 7 times

Pretty reasonable I’d think?!

Maybe he needs to do more ‘blocking’?!

[The_Dud]

Yep absolutely correct about effective possession stat. On its own it is almost useless information. But read in combination with other stats it gives a much better measure if a player is executing his role in accordance with set plays. The derived and calculated stats and data coaches use to measure execution is something a lot of fans don't get to see, mostly because it's closely guarded IP and to discuss it in the public arena would be telegraphing your set plays.

So meters gained is now widely used by many AFL coaches but again on its own it is fairly useless data, but other derived stats like assisted meters gained which has infinite combinations and permeatations based on a coaches set plays is a much more useful stat. But fans will never seen these stats.

So back on Sebby and his 15m sideway passes it's impossible to know if he is executing a set play with this type of kick which then either follows on to the reciecer of that kick who then makes an effective pass 50 meters down the field thus adding 50m to Sebby's tally of assisted meters gained.

For arguments sake let’s say that what you’re saying is the case. That’s makes him a good role player, not an A-grader. An A-grader would be the one putting it upon themselves to make the big play.

[CQ SAINT]

Yep absolutely correct about effective possession stat. On its own it is almost useless information. But read in combination with other stats it gives a much better measure if a player is executing his role in accordance with set plays. The derived and calculated stats and data coaches use to measure execution is something a lot of fans don't get to see, mostly because it's closely guarded IP and to discuss it in the public arena would be telegraphing your set plays.

So meters gained is now widely used by many AFL coaches but again on its own it is fairly useless data, but other derived stats like assisted meters gained which has infinite combinations and permeatations based on a coaches set plays is a much more useful stat. But fans will never seen these stats.

So back on Sebby and his 15m sideway passes it's impossible to know if he is executing a set play with this type of kick which then either follows on to the reciecer of that kick who then makes an effective pass 50 meters down the field thus adding 50m to Sebby's tally of assisted meters gained.

For arguments sake let’s say that what you’re saying is the case. That’s makes him a good role player, not an A-grader. An A-grader would be the one putting it upon themselves to make the big play.

Exactly, a great role player. A role which suits his limitations and gains him respect from his coaches, the bloke that has to follow him around, his team mates and 'workman type' adoring fans. Geary is in the same ilk.

[The_Dud]

I would rate All Austs and B&Fs as the best measure of a players output

So he’s won a B&F in a team that’s won 11 games and another in a team that’s won 9 games

And made an All Aust squad which carries the best 10-12 Mids in the AFL that year. 5-6 get selected and 5-6 miss out.

So clearly that year he was A Grade?! To make the AA Squad clearly that’s the case

Are you saying you can’t have good players in poor teams?
Jack Steven is an example? Is he just average because he won 2 of his B&Fs in teams that won 4 and 6 games?
We better not rate Greg Burns at all, he won two in wooden spoon teams.

I would say that if you told B Ratten that Seb Ross was not an A Grade mid, he’d laugh at you, as would his team mates.

Cannot have an AFL team win NINE games in a season and their BEST player not be considered A Grade
Ridiculous thinking

They know a f***load more than you dud.

Let’s look at B&Fs then. Here’s a list of players who have won 2 or less in recent times.

2 - S Fisher, N Winmar, T Lockett, T Barker
1 - L Ball, P Everitt, S Loewe, D Frawley
0 - B Goddard, N Dal Santo, S Milne, L Montagna, F Gehrig

Please try tell me Seb is equal to or better than most of the players on that list. Please.

Also, Jarrod Witts has won as many B&Fs as Gary Ablett Sr...

Like I said earlier, you could have a team full of duds and a team full of stars, each is going to give away one B&F, and they are definitely not equal.

And are you seriously trying to use making the AA squad once in 7 years a reason for a player to be A-grade?! Yeah he might have had a good year a few seasons ago, doesn’t mean he’s an A-grader today.

No I don’t rate M Crouch as a star midfielder. He may be in the future. And again, he still scores goals more often than Seb. You’re going to have to dig a bit deeper than that.

And just for context, I had Seb as my pick for captain before last season, so I’m definitely not a hater. But maybe most on here giving the same reason for saying he’s not an A-grader might have something to it

[Secret Kiel]

It's the case, unless of coarse you genuinely believe AFL coaches measure performance of their set plays with the stats you have access to as a fan.

So are you arguing Seb isn't capbable of going to another level?

[CQ SAINT]

I would rate All Austs and B&Fs as the best measure of a players output

So he’s won a B&F in a team that’s won 11 games and another in a team that’s won 9 games

And made an All Aust squad which carries the best 10-12 Mids in the AFL that year. 5-6 get selected and 5-6 miss out.

So clearly that year he was A Grade?! To make the AA Squad clearly that’s the case

Are you saying you can’t have good players in poor teams?
Jack Steven is an example? Is he just average because he won 2 of his B&Fs in teams that won 4 and 6 games?
We better not rate Greg Burns at all, he won two in wooden spoon teams.

I would say that if you told B Ratten that Seb Ross was not an A Grade mid, he’d laugh at you, as would his team mates.

Cannot have an AFL team win NINE games in a season and their BEST player not be considered A Grade
Ridiculous thinking

They know a f***load more than you dud.

Let’s look at B&Fs then. Here’s a list of players who have won 2 or less in recent times.

2 - S Fisher, N Winmar, T Lockett, T Barker
1 - L Ball, P Everitt, S Loewe, D Frawley
0 - B Goddard, N Dal Santo, S Milne, L Montagna, F Gehrig

Please try tell me Seb is equal to or better than most of the players on that list. Please.

Also, Jarrod Witts has won as many B&Fs as Gary Ablett Sr...

Like I said earlier, you could have a team full of duds and a team full of stars, each is going to give away one B&F, and they are definitely not equal.

And are you seriously trying to use making the AA squad once in 7 years a reason for a player to be A-grade?! Yeah he might have had a good year a few seasons ago, doesn’t mean he’s an A-grader today.

No I don’t rate M Crouch as a star midfielder. He may be in the future. And again, he still scores goals more often than Seb. You’re going to have to dig a bit deeper than that.

And just for context, I had Seb as my pick for captain before last season, so I’m definitely not a hater. But maybe most on here giving the same reason for saying he’s not an A-grader might have something to it

Paul 'circles Morwood comes to mind. Seb is probably better than Morwood.

[The_Dud]

It's the case, unless of coarse you genuinely believe AFL coaches measure performance of their set plays with the stats you have access to as a fan.

So are you arguing Seb isn't capbable of going to another level?

Not at all, he can definitely go to another level, and to do that he needs to become more damaging and start to boss games and hurt the opposition.

[CQ SAINT]

I think Ross needs a different role. I think.his ideal role could be the link out of defense and the mid who hangs back from attack to rebound opposition defensive drive.
Billings form last year and the acquisition of Hill should
eliminate the single handed drive into attack role that Seb has tried to play. Jones, Ross and Clark would be a formidable trio running transition from defence.

[The_Dud]

Against Melbourne last year he got 30 touches and kicked 2 goals, so he can do it, just need more of those kind of performances.

[B.M]

Or maybe a 39 possession game in a win vs Hawthorn

Where he was clearly BOG

But no, he’s only average.

I find it hilarious you think winning B&Fs at an AFL club can be done by duds... especially at a team that wins as many as it loses... fkn hilarious.

GCS were indeed a poor team, what 3 wins?
But Jarrod Witts was a dominant ruckman and close to the most improved player in the game. Watch more footy!

[The_Dud]

Or maybe a 39 possession game in a win vs Hawthorn

Where he was clearly BOG

But no, he’s only average.

I find it hilarious you think winning B&Fs at an AFL club can be done by duds... especially at a team that wins as many as it loses... fkn hilarious.

GCS were indeed a poor team, what 3 wins?
But Jarrod Witts was a dominant ruckman and close to the most improved player in the game. Watch more footy!

I don’t know if you intentional misinterpret posts or you are really just struggling that much. But if all you’re going to do is invent something that wasn’t said then argue against it, don’t even bother replying.

[B.M]

Your the one arguing that our best player over the last 3 seasons is just a B Grade mid

When all indicators suggest otherwise

Get a clue

[The_Dud]

Your the one arguing that our best player over the last 3 seasons is just a B Grade mid

When all indicators suggest otherwise

Get a clue

Yep. That’s why we haven’t played finals in 8 years.

Now tell me about Witts (one B&F) being a better player than Goddard was for us (no B&F).

[CQ SAINT]

Your the one arguing that our best player over the last 3 seasons is just a B Grade mid

When all indicators suggest otherwise

Get a clue

When you say ALL INDICATORS, can you please explain what indicators you mean.
So far we have coaches votes, brownlow votes and ppg. Not very scientific really.

When you do that, do the same for Marshall, Hannerbery, Steele, Billings, Gresham and Dunstan and explain, other than your opinion, what sets him apart from the rest of those players.

By the way, try to use the most current exposed form. I don't know, let's just say, season 2019.

How he gained more votes in the B&F than Marshall in 2019 is just beyond me. Maybe it was those same coaches voting that ranked Marshall as our 3rd best ruck at the start of the year, behind Longer and Pierce

I think Marshall was the actual only A grade performer, according to statistics, that we had last year. Go figure.

[CQ SAINT]

Your the one arguing that our best player over the last 3 seasons is just a B Grade mid

When all indicators suggest otherwise

Get a clue

Try starting here with your analysis of who our best inside mid is.
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 2=S&type=A

How about a comparison with a loose running back who can actually kick the ball.
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 2=S&type=A

[B.M]

And you are the exact bellend that I started this thread about?

Your actually trying to convince yourself that a bloke who has performed at a high level on most measures as an AFL footballer is average - it’s moronic!

Brownlow votes mean nothing (if it suits your argument)

All Aust squads mean nothing if it suits your argument

Data means nothing if it....

Best and Fairests mean nothing if it ....

I mean, what more can a man do, other than be the best player in his team?

Maybe focus on some serial underperformers like Dunstan and Acres as to why we have been average - not crap - we won 9 games.

I am not sure why you find it so hard to rate the best player at the club over the past three seasons?!


And,
Goddard won a B&F (as well as finishing top 3 four times) in his career, and was a three time All Australian and played 300 games and was a captain
I’m pretty sure he has a few more accolades than Jarrod Witts.
On 2019 form Witts was an excellent
A massive 1000+ hit outs
14 ppg
5 clearances per game
Nothing to ordinary there?!

Please tell me again why Seb is so average because he won two B&Fs?!
Oh that’s right, they are meaningless
Yeah, righto

Rowan Marshall (and Dylan Roberton) didn’t win the B&Fs because their coaches (who know a f***load more than us about AFL footy rated Seb consistently better for the season.
Because it doesn’t suit your argument that he was the winner, you actually say he didn’t deserve it, because you know better than the coaches?!
I mean, can you hear yourself?!

[CQ SAINT]

Rowan Marshall (and Dylan Roberton) didn’t win the B&Fs because their coaches (who know a f***load more than us about AFL footy rated Seb consistently better for the season.
Because it doesn’t suit your argument that he was the winner, you actually say he didn’t deserve it, because you know better than the coaches?!
I mean, can you hear yourself?!

I think I'd rather be a Lenny Hayes award winner. Less political motivation in the voting criteria. I'd suggest given the Lenny Hayes awards winner in 2019, a few players might have been shocked by the result. Taking nothing away from Seb of course. He deserved the coaches award.