Jack Bytel

[CQ SAINT]

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 2=S&type=A

There is a distinct difference in the roles Ross and Dunstan play. Driven mostly by the difference in there mobility.

Statistically speaking there isn't that much difference except the obvious luxury Ross enjoys at stoppages because of the work Dunstan does and Ross's ability to burst into vacant space. The dramatic differences are in time on ground and uncontested possessions, resulting in a metres gained advantage to Ross.

The perceptions that Ross is a worthy B&F winner, while Dunstan is a simple plodder, to me, suggest the observer's lack insight on just how difficult Dunstans role is and how easy it is for an elite runner to accumulate possession.

I'd expect 10-15 more goals from a player with Ross's stats. Then he would be a real champion. If the perception is that he sets up play and contributes massively to the success of team plays then the observer's are buying into a myth created by lack of competition for his role and the resulting votes and accolades he receives. Billings is in a similar position.

Clark and Hill will most likely expose this this year because they win contested ball and use it more effectively to the advantage of team play. Ross may or may not improve with this type of support. Jones will assist Dunstan in his role because he attacks the contest the same way.

One thing for sure is that if all the blokes stay fit, we will control the play better and for longer in games.

[SaintPav]

Dunstan is a plodder.

Not sure what the argument is.

You have absolutely no idea and typical of your moronic style of posting.

That's not very nice, Kells.

[Devilhead]

BfUSA can you please change the Subject Thread Title to ...... Luke Dunstan

Thanks in advance!

[BackFromUSA]

I don’t know BFUSA,

Kind of feel like what ur saying is kind of a perpetuation of a bizarre way of thinking that has crept into the game over the last decade or so which is to describe intangibles, use stats (speaking more broadly on that point) to justify a view that is just not evident.

I’ve heard this type of argument so many times in the last decade

Billy Longer... limited disposals, no tackles or mark, no obvious influence but he blocks and creates space and protects midfielders

Mav Weller... stopped kicking goals or getting kicks... but chased, pressured and harassed

Eddy and McQualter... they guarded space

Football is a game and it’s really not that hard... at the end of the day the majority of fans should be able to sit down, watch it and have a reasonable idea and consensus on who played well and who didn’t

You don’t need an abundance of stats or analysis to see that

I think when you’re introducing arguments like he does his role or his effectiveness isn’t measured in stats or direct impact...
Personally I think it’s a foolish way of thinking.

I like Dunstan and have generally been a supporter... but the reality is that unless he’s a tagger which he isn’t, you cannot have a midfielder that doesn’t either win enough ball or be especially damaging when he does get it.

Fact is that unless he improves dramatically... we need someone to force him out

skeptic

what I am saying is a little different.

At centre bounces, ball ups and throw ins, each player has a role.

At centre bouncer their is a ruckman + blocker or tagger + tap target + sweeper / release target.

Luke plays blocker.

In a clean tap play - he wouldn't be involved with a possession - our tap would go straight to the tap taget and dished off to the sweeper.

That limits the easy ball he gets.

Impacts on his possession count.

His possessions are mostly earned the hard way.

[Spinner]

I don’t know BFUSA,

Kind of feel like what ur saying is kind of a perpetuation of a bizarre way of thinking that has crept into the game over the last decade or so which is to describe intangibles, use stats (speaking more broadly on that point) to justify a view that is just not evident.

I’ve heard this type of argument so many times in the last decade

Billy Longer... limited disposals, no tackles or mark, no obvious influence but he blocks and creates space and protects midfielders

Mav Weller... stopped kicking goals or getting kicks... but chased, pressured and harassed

Eddy and McQualter... they guarded space

Football is a game and it’s really not that hard... at the end of the day the majority of fans should be able to sit down, watch it and have a reasonable idea and consensus on who played well and who didn’t

You don’t need an abundance of stats or analysis to see that

I think when you’re introducing arguments like he does his role or his effectiveness isn’t measured in stats or direct impact...
Personally I think it’s a foolish way of thinking.

I like Dunstan and have generally been a supporter... but the reality is that unless he’s a tagger which he isn’t, you cannot have a midfielder that doesn’t either win enough ball or be especially damaging when he does get it.

Fact is that unless he improves dramatically... we need someone to force him out

skeptic

what I am saying is a little different.

At centre bounces, ball ups and throw ins, each player has a role.

At centre bouncer their is a ruckman + blocker or tagger + tap target + sweeper / release target.

Luke plays blocker.

In a clean tap play - he wouldn't be involved with a possession - our tap would go straight to the tap taget and dished off to the sweeper.

That limits the easy ball he gets.

Impacts on his possession count.

His possessions are mostly earned the hard way.

This is great analysis/insight. One of the best posts I’ve read in years.

[B.M]

That maybe true for a small percentage of HOs to advantage

It ain’t that simple at stoppage

Ruckman at the elite level average 20% ho to adv
At the lower end 10%

So 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 go to where they are intended

The rest are a lottery and every player needs to become a ball winner, tackler, blocker, chaser, offensive runner, defensive runner.

The ruck is not a basket ball top off

[CQ SAINT]

That maybe true for a small percentage of HOs to advantage

It ain’t that simple at stoppage

Ruckman at the elite level average 20% ho to adv
At the lower end 10%

So 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 go to where they are intended

The rest are a lottery and every player needs to become a ball winner, tackler, blocker, chaser, offensive runner, defensive runner.

The ruck is not a basket ball top off

The 80 to 90% isn't as random as you suggest and in a way, those numbers are inaccurate. Taps to advantage is a stat that indicates a clean tap to a target. Defensively, advantage becomes a whole different scenario. Luke Dunstan didn't rank 10th in the league at stoppage clearances because he has good luck. It is well drilled and the fall of the ball is not just blocked, it is blocked to fall in a certain area, Dunstan is strong in this space, Steele is quick in this space and Gresham and Ross flash through this space.

[CQ SAINT]

Further, while Marshall isn't the greatest tap ruckman in the league, he is one the most agile, with a great leap, good height and 100kg behind him at ground level. His ability to foil taps to advantage and make the fall of the ball predictable more often shouldn't be discounted as a lottery. His own clearance numbers back this up, particularly at centre bounces where his attributes have a greater chance of working to our advantage.

[B.M]

Of course it’s a lottery

Like when the ball comes off the pack or from a defensive spoil, it can pretty much go anywhere. A lot of the time it goes front and centre, But the angle can vary because you’ve got a contested situation no one is in complete control, unless they f course they take the mark.

Same with the ruck, only really Gawn (208), Witts (209) and Natinui (massive vertical leap at 201) can predict with confidence where the ball will be tapped. Ruckman will pick quadrants where they are going hit to, but with another 6’7” 105kg (at least) man running at them, it ain’t that easy. The bounce up can go anywhere, the other ruckman crashes into you, they can win the tap out!
You cannot simply set up as if the ball will be going where you want it to go and your ruckman will win every tap. The opposition on average will win half of the taps, of the half your ruckman wins at least 25% will be nullified by the pressure of the opposition ruckman, so in essence >75% of the direction of the fall of the ball in a stoppage is unpredictable for a mid.

The above set up would work in a training drill, but with an opposition it ain’t that simple.

Plus there is a defensive element - Mids need to be set up for a situation where the opposition win the ball.

Who is the sweeper running past for a handball if the other team has the footy

Who is the blocker blocking for if the other team wins the ball

What is the target doing?

If teams purely set up offensively they will be opened up too easily if they lose the clearance.

A stoppage is a very random situation, so therefore has to be very structured

First thing a mid will do at a stoppage is number off

Second thing they will do is cover the diamond

[CQ SAINT]

Having played roughly half my career at 6'3 as a 2nd ruck/forward, I disagree. This was not groundbreaking stuff back in the late 80's and early 90's. While I couldn't win a lot of taps because of a height deficit, I learnt to restrict the position of the opposing ruck with an early leap into there leading hip/thigh. It would put my 100kg frame under the fall of the ball and remove their advantage. I couldn't stop really athletic talls from getting taps but our mids knew where they were going 50-60% of the time. Umpires who could bounce the ball well made it harder but they were rare, they seem to still be in the AFL today. Our mids also trained to shorten reaction times or won free kicks due to over zealous blocking (check Dunstans frees for stats)
It was very taxing, and my knees, hips and back are all shot but winning is worth the effort.
Marshall is a great study for this. He goes early, spreads his wings and maintains balance on his landing. Someone with good rucking knowledge is teaching him.

[B.M]

It definitely ain’t ground breaking, the reason it needs to be quite structured is the unpredictability of a stoppage.

Playing the entirety of my career as an inside mid, I played under the feet of dominant ruckmen (one guy in particular who was only 6’2” but 110 and a gun! And a 6’9”) and poor ruckmen... it was chalk and cheese how I’d set up. In a 50/50 you would have to get the balance right.

The key was making sure the exit from the stoppage was covered and you were on the move.

Call it a clock face or a compass or a diamond a stoppage set up is fairly simple.

[MC Gusto]

Hear Bytel is ‘flying’ this preseason...!!!!

Any updates?!

[B.M]

But is Dunstan?!

[skeptic]

I don’t know BFUSA,

Kind of feel like what ur saying is kind of a perpetuation of a bizarre way of thinking that has crept into the game over the last decade or so which is to describe intangibles, use stats (speaking more broadly on that point) to justify a view that is just not evident.

I’ve heard this type of argument so many times in the last decade

Billy Longer... limited disposals, no tackles or mark, no obvious influence but he blocks and creates space and protects midfielders

Mav Weller... stopped kicking goals or getting kicks... but chased, pressured and harassed

Eddy and McQualter... they guarded space

Football is a game and it’s really not that hard... at the end of the day the majority of fans should be able to sit down, watch it and have a reasonable idea and consensus on who played well and who didn’t

You don’t need an abundance of stats or analysis to see that

I think when you’re introducing arguments like he does his role or his effectiveness isn’t measured in stats or direct impact...
Personally I think it’s a foolish way of thinking.

I like Dunstan and have generally been a supporter... but the reality is that unless he’s a tagger which he isn’t, you cannot have a midfielder that doesn’t either win enough ball or be especially damaging when he does get it.

Fact is that unless he improves dramatically... we need someone to force him out

skeptic

what I am saying is a little different.

At centre bounces, ball ups and throw ins, each player has a role.

At centre bouncer their is a ruckman + blocker or tagger + tap target + sweeper / release target.

Luke plays blocker.

In a clean tap play - he wouldn't be involved with a possession - our tap would go straight to the tap taget and dished off to the sweeper.

That limits the easy ball he gets.

Impacts on his possession count.

His possessions are mostly earned the hard way.

No disrespect intended but I understood your post perfectly the first time... what I’m saying is that your overvalue that ‘role’ and presumably you may consider that I undervalue it.

Regardless... he still needs to get his hands more on the ball outside of the stoppage then

[CQ SAINT]

Hear Bytel is ‘flying’ this preseason...!!!!

Any updates?!

I think he is on holidays until next week. I hope he is behaving himself and taking it easy outside of some 5kg runs and a bit of gym work.

[Secret Kiel]

All the Dunstan talk is becuse some posters are suggesting Bytel has already stamped Dunstan's papers and will be in the team for round 1.

[CQ SAINT]

All the Dunstan talk is becuse some posters are suggesting Bytel has already stamped Dunstan's papers and will be in the team for round 1.

Interesting situation. Dunstan been stamped and Steele let loose. Bytel has his work cut out for him.

[saynta]

All the Dunstan talk is becuse some posters are suggesting Bytel has already stamped Dunstan's papers and will be in the team for round 1.

Interesting situation. Dunstan been stamped and Steele let loose. Bytel has his work cut out for him.

As you posted above.

" Luke Dunstan didn't rank 10th in the league at stoppage clearances because he has good luck."

I hardly think his papers are stamped as some poor judges are suggesting.

Sick to death of all the negative posts on Luke ffs.

[To the top]

The question is how many goals has Ross kicked in how many games?

And compared to Armitage?

Ross is not an elite executioner with the ball in hand and is too often forced to his left side therefore running across the ground, not the length of the ground (and scoring) which would make him a worthy B&F winner in a side which is challenging come September

You get what you promote

I agree the comparative between Dunstan and Ross

Simply we have to improve - so our best have to be better for starters including by replacing them with players with elite skills and capacities

The past has been what it has been - for a reason

[saynta]

The question is how many goals has Ross kicked in how many games?

And compared to Armitage?

Ross is not an elite executioner with the ball in hand and is too often forced to his left side therefore running across the ground, not the length of the ground (and scoring) which would make him a worthy B&F winner in a side which is challenging come September

You get what you promote

I agree the comparative between Dunstan and Ross

Simply we have to improve - so our best have to be better for starters including by replacing them with players with elite skills and capacities

The past has been what it has been - for a reason

Seb is a worthy best and fairest winner . Twice ffs.

[CQ SAINT]

Midfielders who attack the fall of the ball with strength and desire win the most clearances. Always have and always will. We have 2 of these that are established. Dunstan and Steele. For me, Bytel and Jones seem likely to be the next in line given their relative track records when it comes to attacking the contest. I like the look of Byrnes as well.
Inside mid is a term that is likely to be replaced by balanced mid with so many youngs guys breaking the 'inside" tag with an ability to run forward and find space.
While Dunstan is in the mould of a traditional inside mid, his shots on goal and 50m entries stats suggest that he is an attacking mid. With straighter kicking he may have kicked 15 or so goals this year and created a quite a few more. Then he would have polled more votes and perceptions of him would have changed dramatically. At 25 this could change and improve rapidly. He is far from stamped.
Steele being unleashed doesnt necessarily mean he wont push hard for clearances, he will, it just means he will have more freedom to create play. I'm hands down convinced he is a much better footballer than Ross and I think he might be able to usurp Ross in his role.
I'd like Ross to assist in the running back role with Clark and become pivotal as an outside link in defensive transition from the midfield. Ross just isn't an attacking mid. He is an accumulator, a first class accumulator at that.
Just a few positional tweaks may make all the difference to the way the ball is delivered into scoring range. With Billing and Hill working the outside game into attack our forward structure might not be as weak as it appears.

[B.M]

FFS

The coaches voted him B&F on two occasions

And Dunstan I don’t think has cracked the top ten?

Seb doesn’t kick a lot of goals?
Did Robert Harvey? - he was an accumulator- or was it Nathan Burke or Andrew Thompson who deserved the credit for Harvey’s All Australians, Brownlows and B&Fs?!

Which Mids kick a lot of Goals (that don’t rest forward)?
Cotchin, Selwood, Kennedy, could list 20 elite Mids who don’t kick a lot of goals, but THEY give it to guys that do!

Maybe Tony Lockett should give credit to Nicky Winmar and Robert Harvey for all of his goals?

I’d like to know which one of WCE mids is comparable to Dunstan? Shuey?? Yeo???

Please don’t even compare Ross and Dunstan, especially not favourably to Luke, because that would be ridiculous and credibility would be out the window!

[CQ SAINT]

Lol. Comparisons need a basis. In this case it would be result/stats. Perceptions, whether it be the coaches, BM's or TTP's can't ignore the same intangible results or stats.
There's no argument that Ross won B&F's and that while his stats are comparably consistent with Ross's, Dunstan didn't get a top 10. I'm just not sure that in the last 2 years, a St.kilda B&F amounts to a whole lot.other than he plays his role as instructed and works incredibly hard to do that. Is he an A grader? All Australian? In the top 10 mids in the league?.

[saynta]

" I'm just not sure that in the last 2 years, a St.kilda B&F amounts to a whole lot."

WOW, just WOW.

[CQ SAINT]

" I'm just not sure that in the last 2 years, a St.kilda B&F amounts to a whole lot."

WOW, just WOW.

Ok. My apologies. But if Steven was in full flight what would be the accolade for Ross?