Jack Steele ready to be unleashed

[Hunter2King]

Can we not call anyone Roo Mk 2?!

I still remember BJ who? About Siposs

The next big thing Rhys Stanley

The GOAT Acres

Paddy McKlunken (even compared to plugger ffs)

Max will be a beauty, but is not going to be NR

A better comparison would be J Daniher

Dont forget "Buddy" White and 'Plugger' McCartin...

[Scollop]

I would have thought there was a few bigger issues to fix than changing the role of our best defensive mid who still wins plenty of the ball himself.

Are we not going to have a run with mid?
Could Geary be taking that role?
Is someone else in the frame?
interesting
Interesting, I rate Steele because he negates and wins the footy as well.
Good player, but would only get a game in a top team as a defensive mid IMO.

Will be to see how he goes, we certainly have the outside run and skill that could benefit if he can turn into a extracting clearance machine. Good that Ratten is looking to shake things up a bit and to give one of our better performed players an opportunity to add a new focus to his game. If it comes off great, if not, we still have a great defensive mid.
Makes perfect sense to me.

I agree with the barometer. Joffa; I think Jack Steele will change your opinion of him by the end of 2020

Not sure if I agree with Gears taking on the role, but I'm sure the captain will perform as a defensive tagger if called upon.

As far as Steele is concerned, I'd love to see him tried as a go to mid like a Luke Parker or Yeo or the stronger mids who enjoy taking overhead marks and kicking goals

Jack is one of my favourite players from the time he started with us. I loved the manbun

Can kick on both sides, makes good decisions. and has a strong right leg ( some of our players can barely kick 45m )

Consistently works hard as a team player and he will continue to be good defensively

He is accurate with his set shots and not afraid to demand the football or win it himself and take a ping. Can lift the team when someone needs to lead and inspire in front of goals.

Edit...I just read the Foxsports story and it confirms my thoughts about him being a goal kicker and an extra target up forward

[BarryGrogan]

If Anyone else were to tag, it’d have to be Seb. And there goes 25/30 possessions down to 15/20.

The three things that worked in ‘19
Battle to CHB - he was not great as soon as Jake returned (nor was Jake)
Marshall - in the ruck
Steele - best defensive mid in the AFL #1 for tackles and took several scalps

What did not work imo
Gresham into the midfield - we lost 20 goals from a fwd

Next year it seems
Marshall is going forward to cover the loss of Bruce
Battle is not playing CHB, maybe forward, maybe HB
Steele not tagging - Stupid
Gresham still running though the middle (as we now have 6 small forwards)

Already I sense mistakes... and if you think Ratts won’t make any, and is a messiah, hold you judgement to R11

You're very naive.

Do you scream 'kick the bloody thing!!' and 'Man up!' at the footy every week?

The idea is not to make guys' individual stat sheets look awesome - it's to win games.

Gresham was a handy small forward, that formed part of a dysfunctional forward line.

Marshall had a good year as a ruckman - but our strategy was to rove off the opposition ruckman because we identified that he was no good with his actual ruckwork.

Individuals looking good in certain positions does not equal flags.

The system is what equals flags.

If we have to sacrifice individuals output in order to develop a better system across the ground, then who can argue with that?

Jack Riewoldt sacrificed his role as an elite deep FF in a mediocre team, to a roaming high FF that ended up improving the system into a premiership team.

It happens all the time.


Without knowing what Ratten's overall system looks like, it's impossible to tell if this is a mistake or not.

In isolation it may appear that way - but modern footy is not played in isolation. If Steele's individual output is down, but the team's is up - then it's the right decision. Simple.

To predict if it will work or not without knowing the whole system is just folly.

[SaintPav]

I wouldn’t describe BM as naive.

The point is this: you need to play to your strengths. Gresham can’t play as a full time midfielder to save himself.

As per second last point in the above post, I thought Ratten was freeing up Steele so he could get more of the pill, not less. Interesting.

[BarryGrogan]

I wouldn’t describe BM as naive.

The point is this: you need to play to your strengths. Gresham can’t play as a full time midfielder to save himself.

As per second last point in the above post, I thought Ratten was freeing up Steele so he could get more of the pill, not less. Interesting.

I would.




You play to your team's strengths - not individuals.

If a player has less output individually, but it improves the team's system overall - it's a win.

Greasham was in our top 4 for Disposals, Clearances and Centre Clearances. His problem is that he can't kick.


Not sure why your last observation is interesting?

Isn't it a good thing to move a player to a different role if it improves the overall tram system?

[Secret Kiel]

What?, Gresham not a full time midfielder in 2020, it's highly doubtful he will play anywhere else in 2020 and beyond. I'd also like to hear more about Gresh not being able to kick.

[BarryGrogan]

What?, Gresham not a full time midfielder in 2020, it's highly doubtful he will play anywhere else in 2020 and beyond. I'd also like to hear more about Gresh not being able to kick.

Just watch him. It's atrocious.

The footy whisperer from Hawthorn has gone straight to him I've heard to address his blatant issues.

[skeptic]

The challenge is also assigning the correct value to the role.

Gresh is/was okay as a midfielder but he’s not the outside jet that you want him to be.
IMO he was a gun FP... more suited to bursts and flashes because he has the skills to be deadly.

I’d rather recruit another outside mid if we need it rather than player not as good FPs like Kent so that we can unnecessarily squeeze Gresh into a role where he is less effective

IMO the approach of forcing players into positions that don’t play to their strengths is a sure fire path to mediocrity

[Joffa Burns]

The challenge is also assigning the correct value to the role.

Gresh is/was okay as a midfielder but he’s not the outside jet that you want him to be.
IMO he was a gun FP... more suited to bursts and flashes because he has the skills to be deadly.

I’d rather recruit another outside mid if we need it rather than player not as good FPs like Kent so that we can unnecessarily squeeze Gresh into a role where he is less effective

IMO the approach of forcing players into positions that don’t play to their strengths is a sure fire path to mediocrity

Gresh will never be a midfielder IMO, but can go to a centre bounce for a clearance.
FP and high HF are his spots for mine.

Robbie Gray is an absolute star of the game and has never been a FT mid, just goes in for a change up or when they need a clearance, maybe 10% of the game.

Robbie Gray should be the Gresh model for the type of player he should be emulating.
Gresh can be a real impact play and has some freakish skills.

If we could build a decent midfield and play Gresh and Billings of HF we'd be super dangerous IMO as these guys are average mids but potentially elite dangerous half forwards.

[skeptic]

The challenge is also assigning the correct value to the role.

Gresh is/was okay as a midfielder but he’s not the outside jet that you want him to be.
IMO he was a gun FP... more suited to bursts and flashes because he has the skills to be deadly.

I’d rather recruit another outside mid if we need it rather than player not as good FPs like Kent so that we can unnecessarily squeeze Gresh into a role where he is less effective

IMO the approach of forcing players into positions that don’t play to their strengths is a sure fire path to mediocrity

Gresh will never be a midfielder IMO, but can go to a centre bounce for a clearance.
FP and high HF are his spots for mine.

Robbie Gray is an absolute star of the game and has never been a FT mid, just goes in for a change up or when they need a clearance, maybe 10% of the game.

Robbie Gray should be the Gresh model for the type of player he should be emulating.
Gresh can be a real impact play and has some freakish skills.

If we could build a decent midfield and play Gresh and Billings of HF we'd be super dangerous IMO as these guys are average mids but potentially elite dangerous half forwards.

100% agree

[SaintPav]

Skeptic and Joffa basically nailed it.

I think the same applies to Billings.

Barry sounds a bit confused.

[SaintPav]

Ok, Barry.

I was being diplomatic because I don’t understand your logic. If the objective is to free Steele up, he should be getting more of the ball and not less. So his output in terms of disposals should be theoretically higher.

BM is highly knowledgeable, can be very disagreeable and stubborn but he does not come across as naive.

[B.M]

Barry,

Jack R played as the sole key forward in the 2017 flag (Caddy as the medium at HF)

The in the 2019 flag a boom recruit 199cm deep forward on 900k was their deep forward so Jack moved higher.

Please provide better examples to try and prove a point?!

BTW
I don’t even yell out ‘ball’ at the footy. I just watch the game and often get a little disappointed in the way we play.

I think we have many things broken

I also think we should fix those before worrying about stuff that is working?!

Oh, and I loved your ruck analysis but have a question
What happened when Marshall actually won a tap?? Since he average winning 25 odd and we were ‘roving’ to the opposition.
And how the hell do we know where to set up to an opposition tap?? Perhaps ask them where they are going to hit it???

Of course the answer is you just set two up defensively, so their Mids don’t have an exit through the front or inside of the stoppage, have the skinny side winger play outside side of the stoppage and concede defensive side but still roll up a HHF to apply pressure to defensive side so they don’t get much time to hit a target. If the opposition win a clearance, you want it to be dirty.
There STILL has to be target in case you win a hit out in all cases, because you will lose any advantage of winning a tap and getting a clean stoppage exit if you don’t

Generally the target is Ross
But Dunstan, Gresham and Hannebury can be targeted. The other common play is for Marshall to take clean possessions and offload.

[B.M]

Agree fully with Gresham

A HHF rolling into stoppage and deep forward

And also agree about his kicking

Good snap at goal. Poor field kick!

[Secret Kiel]

Has a coach ever put a player into a position that doesn't play to his strengths.

Interestingly Gresh and Brad Hill have very similar stats for 2019. Specifically both are really good at gaining territory. Not bad for a poor field kicker.

And if Gresh is an atrocious kick then he's not far off being elite by foot. Probably 1 to 3 more effective kicks per game should see him reach elite company.

Gresh on one wing, Brad on the other is how it might look in 2020.

[Joffa Burns]

Has a coach ever put a player into a position that doesn't play to his strengths.

Interestingly Gresh and Brad Hill have very similar stats for 2019. Specifically both are really good at gaining territory. Not bad for a poor field kicker.

And if Gresh is an atrocious kick then he's not far off being elite by foot. Probably 1 to 3 more effective kicks per game should see him reach elite company.

Gresh on one wing, Brad on the other is how it might look in 2020.

Am I missing something?
Who suggested Gresham was an atrocious kick?

[Secret Kiel]

Has a coach ever put a player into a position that doesn't play to his strengths.

Interestingly Gresh and Brad Hill have very similar stats for 2019. Specifically both are really good at gaining territory. Not bad for a poor field kicker.

And if Gresh is an atrocious kick then he's not far off being elite by foot. Probably 1 to 3 more effective kicks per game should see him reach elite company.

Gresh on one wing, Brad on the other is how it might look in 2020.

Am I missing something?
Who suggested Gresham was an atrocious kick?

Bazza did a bit earlier in this thread.

[B.M]

Gresham kicks around his body, struggles to hit a target.

Question
How good is Steele at tagging?

[BarryGrogan]

Barry,

Jack R played as the sole key forward in the 2017 flag (Caddy as the medium at HF)

The in the 2019 flag a boom recruit 199cm deep forward on 900k was their deep forward so Jack moved higher.

No, you're missing the point.

Riewoldt began playing higher up in about 2016 to improve Richmond's system. To draw the defense away from others, but mainly to address the chronic predictability that had become an Achilles heel for Richmond.

"In each of the five subsequent completed seasons, he acquired no less than 57.7 per cent of his possessions inside 50. This trend had been continuing during the season's first six weeks, during which the dual Coleman Medallist he had won 63 per cent of his touches inside the arc.

In round 7, Hardwick decided to add a pair of forwards in Ty Vickery and Liam McBean. Every week since, two of Vickery, McBean and Ben Griffiths have spent large chunks of the game forward for the Tigers. Riewoldt has been sent packing. Between rounds 7 and 12, only 32.4 per cent of his possessions have been won inside 50. In the Friday night upset of Fremantle three weeks ago, just two of Riewoldt's possessions were gained forward."

I think we have many things broken

I also think we should fix those before worrying about stuff that is working?!

Naive.

Modern football isn't played in isolation.

You also don't build a team around a tagger.

If Ratten's system sacrifices one player's tagging output in order to utilise his strengths elsewhere, which in turn improves the overall system - how is that a bad thing?

As I said earlier, until anyone knows what his system is, it's impossible to know whether reducing Steele's output as a tagger in order to increase his output in other areas is a mistake or not.

Very naive.

Oh, and I loved your ruck analysis but have a question
What happened when Marshall actually won a tap?? Since he average winning 25 odd and we were ‘roving’ to the opposition.

I didn't offer a ruck analysis.

I quoted what Lade said publicly.

And how the hell do we know where to set up to an opposition tap?? Perhaps ask them where they are going to hit it???

Seriously?

What do you think modern ruck coaches do? Not hack suburban coaches - but AFL ruck coaches?

They know all set plays by all ruckman. Lade could tell you off the top of his head where Grundy hits the ball in different scenarios, which hand he will use against different ruckmen, and when opposition mids set up in a certain way who is getting the ball.

It's what they do for a living.

[Secret Kiel]

Modern teams can't afford full time taggers. You can't be a midfielder and only run one way or only be capable of one task at a time. You need to be capable of 20-25 disposals minimum per game. Jack is clearly not just a tagger and is clearly being challenged to win more ball and increase his meters gained and assisted meters gained.

[CQ SAINT]

Taps to advantage are a very important stat, but if you look down the top 10 clearance averages from stoppages in 2019 you will find that strength and the ability to protect or control space is a consistent attribute within those players. This usually indicates that the taps are very predictable and good ruckman who arent necessarily great tap exponents can contribute by foiling the other ruckmans position. Marshall has shown that he can do both.

As a guy that is generally there to foil the number one clearance player on the other side, Steele is ranked 48 only 2 clearances off the best. Dunstan is ranked 10.

Dunstan has the strength for clearances but not the run for field play. Steele has both and could be very dangerous if 'unleashed'.

Looking down the list it would be ideal to let Dunstan do the grunt work and blood (sparingly) Bytel into the run with role in rotation. The kid can run, is a tackling machine and might just be in the mix for this role. Jack Steele had very similar attributes at the same age and played 7 and 10 games at 19 and 20 years. This role at St.kilda has seen his development amplify significantly with 61 games since turning 21. Bytel could follow a very similar path. He is the only reason I would unleash Steele.

The more players we can develop to be accomplished clearance players, average of 3 or more a game, the better. Then we will control.the ball better and for longer.

Hannerbery, Ross and Gresham are no slouches but depend more on movement than strength. As did Steven. Ryder will assist them greatly.

[CQ SAINT]

Taps to advantage are a very important stat, but if you look down the top 10 clearance averages from stoppages in 2019 you will find that strength and the ability to protect or control space is a consistent attribute within those players. This usually indicates that the taps are very predictable and good ruckman who arent necessarily great tap exponents can contribute by foiling the other ruckmans position. Marshall has shown that he can do both.

As a guy that is generally there to foil the number one clearance player on the other side, Steele is ranked 48 only 2 clearances off the best. Dunstan is ranked 10.

Dunstan has the strength for clearances but not the run for field play. Steele has both and could be very dangerous if 'unleashed'.

Looking down the list it would be ideal to let Dunstan do the grunt work and blood (sparingly) Bytel into the run with role in rotation. The kid can run, is a tackling machine and might just be in the mix for this role. Jack Steele had very similar attributes at the same age and played 7 and 10 games at 19 and 20 years. This role at St.kilda has seen his development amplify significantly with 61 games since turning 21. Bytel could follow a very similar path. He is the only reason I would unleash Steele.

The more players we can develop to be accomplished clearance players, average of 3 or more a game, the better. Then we will control.the ball better and for longer.

Hannerbery, Ross and Gresham are no slouches but depend more on movement than strength. As did Steven. Ryder will assist them greatly.

[B.M]

Barry

Sorry to say, but you embarrass yourself.

I’ve forgotten more about footy than you’ll ever know. I don’t think you understand a thing about AFL footy!

Steele will be tagging by round 9 is my prediction

Gresham will split time between Forward and midfield

Ryder will be either out of the side or playing less than 30% ruck by mid year

Coffield will be at Sandy and very unhappy


We’ll see who is correct?

[BarryGrogan]

Barry

Sorry to say, but you embarrass yourself.

I’ve forgotten more about footy than you’ll ever know. I don’t think you understand a thing about AFL footy!

Steele will be tagging by round 9 is my prediction

Gresham will split time between Forward and midfield

Ryder will be either out of the side or playing less than 30% ruck by mid year

Coffield will be at Sandy and very unhappy


We’ll see who is correct?

What do you mean "we'll see who is correct"?

I haven't disagreed, nor even commented on the points you've written above.