We can't accept 3-5 after Round 8...so...

[BarryGrogan]

By winning

Improving our membership base by moving non member supporters to full paying members and getting new supporters by winning

Winning solves everything in footy

Ask Benny Gale

Even when we played in successive GFs, topped the ladder, only lost 1 game for the season, had the best player in the comp, had a centurion goal kicker, played finals for a decade - we still didn't pull crowds or members.

You're completely delusional.

We have a small customer base. On top of that, our customer base just that into the footy.

We don't show up. Never have.



The average Saints fan isn't a tragic loser that hinges their entire self-worth and outlook on life based on the results of the footy club they barrack for.

Richmond and Collingwood though are the opposite.

[shanegrambeau]

St Kilda fans like me might be nutcases and misfits I am afraid. We didn't choose St Kilda because of a poor statistical record, but judging by this guy, http://www.convictcreations.com/football/stkilda.htm

[BarryGrogan]

St Kilda fans like me might be nutcases and misfits I am afraid. We didn't choose St Kilda because of a poor statistical record, but judging by this guy, http://www.convictcreations.com/football/stkilda.htm

Interesting...

"Roy Morgan research on St Kild Fans
2001 - compared to other Australians

31% more likely to be aged 35-49 than the average person;
18% more likely than the average person to have eaten at McDonalds in the last four weeks;
22% more likely to say imported beer is a waste of money;
22% more likely than the average person to say freedom is more important than the law.
2004 - compared to other AFL supporters

35% more likely to be aged 35-49
56% more likely to be professional
25% more likely to have travelled by air
20% more likely to have bought fresh flowers
17% more likely to drink wine with their meals
16% more likely to believe that threats to the environment are exaggerated
2006 when compared to other AFL supporters

25% more likely to prefer the bright lights and big cities when they travel
22% more likely to agree that if they didn't have to carry a mobile phone for work they wouldn't have one at all
22% more likely to always read the business section of the newspaper"


I rest my case.

[Secret Kiel]

St Kilda fans like me might be nutcases and misfits I am afraid. We didn't choose St Kilda because of a poor statistical record, but judging by this guy, http://www.convictcreations.com/football/stkilda.htm

Interesting...

"Roy Morgan research on St Kild Fans
2001 - compared to other Australians

31% more likely to be aged 35-49 than the average person;
18% more likely than the average person to have eaten at McDonalds in the last four weeks;
22% more likely to say imported beer is a waste of money;
22% more likely than the average person to say freedom is more important than the law.
2004 - compared to other AFL supporters

35% more likely to be aged 35-49
56% more likely to be professional
25% more likely to have travelled by air
20% more likely to have bought fresh flowers
17% more likely to drink wine with their meals
16% more likely to believe that threats to the environment are exaggerated
2006 when compared to other AFL supporters

25% more likely to prefer the bright lights and big cities when they travel
22% more likely to agree that if they didn't have to carry a mobile phone for work they wouldn't have one at all
22% more likely to always read the business section of the newspaper"


I rest my case.

So you are resting your case on some old hacked-up stats that were prepared in a way so 100% of Herald Sun readers would misconstrue them to form skewed and misguided opinions to suit the agenda of the time, ok good point and well argued.

[BarryGrogan]

St Kilda fans like me might be nutcases and misfits I am afraid. We didn't choose St Kilda because of a poor statistical record, but judging by this guy, http://www.convictcreations.com/football/stkilda.htm

Interesting...

"Roy Morgan research on St Kild Fans
2001 - compared to other Australians

31% more likely to be aged 35-49 than the average person;
18% more likely than the average person to have eaten at McDonalds in the last four weeks;
22% more likely to say imported beer is a waste of money;
22% more likely than the average person to say freedom is more important than the law.
2004 - compared to other AFL supporters

35% more likely to be aged 35-49
56% more likely to be professional
25% more likely to have travelled by air
20% more likely to have bought fresh flowers
17% more likely to drink wine with their meals
16% more likely to believe that threats to the environment are exaggerated
2006 when compared to other AFL supporters

25% more likely to prefer the bright lights and big cities when they travel
22% more likely to agree that if they didn't have to carry a mobile phone for work they wouldn't have one at all
22% more likely to always read the business section of the newspaper"


I rest my case.

So you are resting your case on some old hacked-up stats that were prepared in a way so 100% of Herald Sun readers would misconstrue them to form skewed and misguided opinions to suit the agenda of the time, ok good point and well argued.

Yes.

The average Saints fan has more going on in their life thsn the footy, compared to fans from most other clubs.


We'll never be big, no matter what. We simply don't have the supoorter base that others have, and of the supoorter base we do have - most are more interested in other stuff.

Case closed.

[B.M]

We were flying in 2009

No debt
Solid membership numbers comparatively
More prime time games
Bigger crowds (52 000 vs Geelong at Marvel) Regularly 35k at Home

Our supporter base is quite big, but ageing. On the bayside (where I live) only Collingwood had more supporters (Rich and Haw May have surpassed us now?)
Every other supporter who travels on the frankston line is a sainter.

The big mistake was Tassie

Tassie was a heartland, particularly Northern and North West Tassie. Now Hawthorn dominate those areas and kudos to them.

[magnifisaint]

And speaking of possible outcomes, can we accept 8 and 0?
Could that be a possibility?
Huh, maybe??
Over to the maths geniuses.
I would be interested in this scenario instead of 3 and 5.
What has Tasmania got to do with all of this?
Does organic produce make you play better footy?

[B.M]

Referring to size of supporter base after BG incorrectly said we have a small supporter base

[Secret Kiel]

sustained success is what will help, our supporter base is ageing and the new blood are probably more than likely the brainwashed dependants, so small growth.

If we want to get some growth outside the brainwashed dependant market we will need something like a threepeat or 3 flags from the one list over a decade.

Mind you we would have been up in the grille of the young and stupid from 2008 to 2011 so there could be a sleeper cell there waiting to release its dispensable income on the club if we hit the finals scene soon enough.

[freely]

Ah, all us supoorters. Makes me teary!

[shanegrambeau]

sustained success is what will help,

......the brainwashed dependant market we will need something.......

.........there could be a sleeper cell there waiting to release its dispensable income on the club if we hit the finals scene soon enough.

I agree with this. The break washed dependent market - awesome term. The ol BDM. Are you in marketing? Love it.
I think I went to Uni with one of those. Brilliant sportsman, footy cricket tennis etc., natural leader..he had a soft spot for St Kilda due to growing up in Elwood, but it was a legacy of his parents, immigrants to Stkild in the post-war period.

Footy fandom is still not something kids with money and options are going to obsess about anymore and the bayside area is a real estate goldmine - unless you are a doctor. I come from (formelerly) humble Hampton, which has gone from Edwardian backwater meets post-war commission houses, to BMW meets Mercedes Benz latte land. Other suburbs still have a bit of rough and tumble about them, or are new and desolate....these are the breeding grounds for kids to play and talk footy. Perhaps they realized that when Seaford came up?

Maybe the introduction of women’s footy might save us?

And I will always go on about this. Sorry...we need a reserves team and we need them playing at the junction when not competing with our seniors for that miserable Sunday Docklands slot.

We also need to find a way to get people like me committed financially. We live overseas and can’t watch games. All I can do is pay for watching games live stream. Does St Kilda get anything for that?

Back to the topic of 3-5 for a moment. Looking at the team posted by (?) further up the thread , with coffield and Sinclair as emergencies, and the comment that this team doesn’t look better than WC, Richmond, Gellong etc., it is hard not to agree..but I can’t help thinking Jack Sinclair will one day be a star. Do you think his time has already come and gone.? Would he be. In the starting 22 elsewhere?

[shanegrambeau]

sustained success is what will help,

......the brainwashed dependant market we will need something.......

.........there could be a sleeper cell there waiting to release its dispensable income on the club if we hit the finals scene soon enough.

I agree with this. The brain washed dependent market - awesome term. The ol BDM. Are you in marketing? Love it.
I think I went to Uni with one of those. Brilliant sportsman, footy cricket tennis etc., natural leader..he had a soft spot for St Kilda due to growing up in Elwood, but it was a legacy of his parents, immigrants to Stkild in the post-war period.

Footy fandom is still not something kids with money and options are going to obsess about anymore and the bayside area is a real estate goldmine - unless you are a doctor. I come from (formelerly) humble Hampton, which has gone from Edwardian backwater meets post-war commission houses, to BMW meets Mercedes Benz latte land. Other suburbs still have a bit of rough and tumble about them, or are new and desolate....these are the breeding grounds for kids to play and talk footy. Perhaps they realized that when Seaford came up?

Maybe the introduction of women’s footy might save us?

And I will always go on about this. Sorry...we need a reserves team and we need them playing at the junction when not competing with our seniors for that miserable Sunday Docklands slot.

We also need to find a way to get people like me committed financially. We live overseas and can’t watch games. All I can do is pay for watching games live stream. Does St Kilda get anything for that?

Back to the topic of 3-5 for a moment. Looking at the team posted by (?) further up the thread , with coffield and Sinclair as emergencies, and the comment that this team doesn’t look better than WC, Richmond, Gellong etc., it is hard not to agree..but I can’t help thinking Jack Sinclair will one day be a star. Do you think his time has already come and gone.? Would he be. In the starting 22 elsewhere?

[BarryGrogan]

Referring to size of supporter base after BG incorrectly said we have a small supporter base

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/findi ... 1304260515

[B.M]

So we have an excuse for failure then?

Way to accept mediocrity!

I’ll tell you now, people will turn on Ratten as quick as they did other coaches.

[BarryGrogan]

So we have an excuse for failure then?

Way to accept mediocrity!

I’ll tell you now, people will turn on Ratten as quick as they did other coaches.

Who is that question directed at?

[B.M]

Whoever?!

But mainly the person who said there are excuses for losing in front half of the year... was it you?

[shanegrambeau]

I still wonder about season 2000...how it was that Mick Malthouse came to Collingwood, and how the team raced out of the blocks to be 5-0. New coach, new regime etc., etc., They then lost the next fifteen in a row bar one, the tenth in that run, to..guess who? ..the mighty Saints, and I wonder if Timmy Watson by then knew the game was up.

I wonder how they temper expectations internally as well as fire em up, because we are certainly in a new frame now. But like North and Port in recent years.

[BarryGrogan]

Whoever?!

But mainly the person who said there are excuses for losing in front half of the year... was it you?

There are absolutely excuses for losing. What a ridiculous and naive notion.

There's no excuse for not trying, but there's no doubt that it will be very unlikely that in 1 pre-season, everyone knows exactly what everyone else is doing.

It just doesn't work like that.

Took Lyon, Beveridge and Clarkson 18 months at least to get their message through when they took over and had a turnover of their lists.

It's just common sense.

Take away the childish and emotional tantrums that you're renowned for and you'll acknowledge that it's highly unlikely that we'll win many games in the first 2/3s of the year.

It will be a genuine miracle if we do.


Injuries aside, if we're not showing signs in the back end of the year then there could be reason for alarm.

But to start wringing hands any earlier than that when a new coaching group moves in, and nearly half of the starting 22 are new to the team is just petulance and stupidity of the highest order.

[samuraisaint]

7 of our first 8 games are at Docklands.

Our only away game is down at Geelong and we gave them something to think about under the old coach with a lesser quality list.

No, we didn't - we went in under-prepared and unmotivated for the contest, much the same as we have for the past eight years, and they had the game wrapped up early after the first quarter. Once the game was effectively over and finished as a contest our coaches went in to self-preservation mode - playing numbers behind the ball in order to make sure that we didn't lose by too much, similar to the North Melbourne debacle in Hobart. Nothing was learned after years and years of failing to turn up on the day.

I would say the whole performance that night absolutely reeked of a defeatist attitude. They toweled us up easily, let's be honest. We never looked like challenging at all.

It will be a massacre down there, with Steven dominating in celebratory fashion.

Geelong will have that match put down as a certainty for them already.

[shanegrambeau]

... Once the game was effectively over....
our coaches went in to self-preservation mode......
..... Nothing was learned after years and years .....

Damn
If that is what happened it's a shame.
Mind you, had we kept an attacking posture and suffered a cricket score like blowout, would we be even sadder or madder?

What chills me is that 'professional organization' side of it. The bit that suggests when the tide is going against us, people retreat into their bunkers and tie up loose ends...i.e. take care of key parameters for the next team meeting.

I got stuck reading war books in the library as a kid when my stocks in the school yard was low. I could never fathom how the Germans kept reorganizing and defending long after the cause was lost...perpeptuating the misery. I hope that metaphor doesn't apply here obviously.

Geelong were quite patchy last year, remember. There were periods when it looked like their era was over.

[Hunter2King]

... Once the game was effectively over....
our coaches went in to self-preservation mode......
..... Nothing was learned after years and years .....

Damn
If that is what happened it's a shame.
Mind you, had we kept an attacking posture and suffered a cricket score like blowout, would we be even sadder or madder?

What chills me is that 'professional organization' side of it. The bit that suggests when the tide is going against us, people retreat into their bunkers and tie up loose ends...i.e. take care of key parameters for the next team meeting.

I got stuck reading war books in the library as a kid when my stocks in the school yard was low. I could never fathom how the Germans kept reorganizing and defending long after the cause was lost...perpeptuating the misery. I hope that metaphor doesn't apply here obviously.

Geelong were quite patchy last year, remember. There were periods when it looked like their era was over.

I was thinking about this the other day. I couldnt fathom how Germany kept funding the war machine for so long with trade embargoes etc.

Turns out money and funding and were not really an issue. The big issue for them was getting enough oil and iron ore.

OIl is a big reason they stuck to their disastrous campaign on the easten front against the Russians.

Iron ore they were able to get from Sweden.

Money itself was easy to come by as the Americans and English were happy to finance the German economy for years.

Back to the Alan Richarson. I think it wasnt just the game plan that he stuck to until the bitter end. It was probably a poor eye for talent that also dig himself his own hole.
Blind freddy could see guys like Weller and Newnes werent really AFL standard but under Richo they were considered elite talent leaders!
By 2017, almost everyone knew Paddy was seriously flawed as a player and had serious fitness/health issues.



Thankfully come October 2018, the club realised Richo's judgment was poor and intervened to recruit Max King and get Ratten in. This was the Normandy landings where the club decided it was going to bring th Richo regime to a close. 9 months later it would be over.

[B.M]

it’s good that we are ok with losing in the front half of the season?!

Hopefully the coaches and players don’t share that arttitude?

The age profile of our list suggests we are not really a developing team though?!

Bulldogs and Hawks were when Beverage and Clarkson took over!

[shanegrambeau]

.... how Germany kept funding the war machine for so long....Turns out money and funding and were not really an issue.

Never understood money, esp in a war. I mean do they just print it..and how the how does it hold value?...and US had a huge debt post-war...their biggest ever....Brits also poor, but Britain continued being poor and the US boomed and funded the booming of Japan, Germany, South Korea all with a gigantic defence budget. Obviously, if God imposed a salary cap, it might have been different.

I don't wanna accept mediocre results in 2020, I want to see reasons and hope that they'll be huge improvement, but at whose expense. So I have to hope Melbourne, North Melbourne, bulldogs, Carlton, Geelong, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Port Adelaide and Fremantle to really struggle. I can't see Sydney, GWS, Adelaide, Hawthorn, Richmond, Essendon down and out for long stretches..maybe Essendon.

[Joffa Burns]

Whoever?!

But mainly the person who said there are excuses for losing in front half of the year... was it you?

There are absolutely excuses for losing. What a ridiculous and naive notion.

There's no excuse for not trying, but there's no doubt that it will be very unlikely that in 1 pre-season, everyone knows exactly what everyone else is doing.

It just doesn't work like that.

Took Lyon, Beveridge and Clarkson 18 months at least to get their message through when they took over and had a turnover of their lists.

It's just common sense.

Take away the childish and emotional tantrums that you're renowned for and you'll acknowledge that it's highly unlikely that we'll win many games in the first 2/3s of the year.

It will be a genuine miracle if we do.


Injuries aside, if we're not showing signs in the back end of the year then there could be reason for alarm.

But to start wringing hands any earlier than that when a new coaching group moves in, and nearly half of the starting 22 are new to the team is just petulance and stupidity of the highest order.

I don't recall Lyon, Beveridge or Clarkson spending a year as the senior assistant at their respective clubs prior to getting the no.1 gig.

I think this gives Ratten his learning year and the base to understand his players and the game plan.

[B.M]

Ratten will expect to his players to hit the ground running

He had 9 months as senior assistant

6 weeks as senior coach

4 weeks in the off season to plan

3 weeks with the 1-4 players

3 weeks with the entire list

Christmas Break - 2 weeks

8 week training block 4 days per week

Intra club Prac Game

2 x Practice matches

Then Round 1

If he can’t prepare a side in that time - I’ll be f***ed!