Do you honestly think bringing in 5 traded players was the right move?

[fugazi]

I want honest debate!!!!!

OK Nick, you've had a lot of people respond and disagree with your views, so it's now time to put up or shut up - if you posted this topic merely as a tease to get people worked up, then stop wasting our time and bugger off!!

I am happy to respond Sanctorum.

The only way that we can make this work is if we improve enough so that FA's want to come to us every year. If this doesn't happen then we are doomed and in 3 years time we will be in full Re-Build mode again. I'll tell you why......

1. We completely stuffed the 2014 Draft
2. We completely traded out of the 2019 draft.
3. WE only have one decent pick in the 2020 draft.

This means that in years to come we will not have the amount of quality youth coming through that ALL THE OTHER TEAMS WILL HAVE.

Like I said above, the only way we can make this path that we have chosen work is through FA. So if we don't improve enough next year to entice at least 1 quality FA every year (at least for the next 3 years), then we are gone. Simply and purely because we will not have anywhere near the quality of youngsters that the other teams do.

Plenty of sides have given up a year or two of drafts for trades.
We did it at the right time. Clark Coffield Bytel and King working their way in over next two years, and a raft of 22-27 year olds approaching or in their prime.

We can handle a skinny draft year this year. Still have a first rounder next year.

[damienc]

I want honest debate!!!!!

OK Nick, you've had a lot of people respond and disagree with your views, so it's now time to put up or shut up - if you posted this topic merely as a tease to get people worked up, then stop wasting our time and bugger off!!

I am happy to respond Sanctorum.

The only way that we can make this work is if we improve enough so that FA's want to come to us every year. If this doesn't happen then we are doomed and in 3 years time we will be in full Re-Build mode again. I'll tell you why......

1. We completely stuffed the 2014 Draft
2. We completely traded out of the 2019 draft.
3. WE only have one decent pick in the 2020 draft.

This means that in years to come we will not have the amount of quality youth coming through that ALL THE OTHER TEAMS WILL HAVE.

Like I said above, the only way we can make this path that we have chosen work is through FA. So if we don't improve enough next year to entice at least 1 quality FA every year (at least for the next 3 years), then we are gone. Simply and purely because we will not have anywhere near the quality of youngsters that the other teams do.

As opinions go this is about as left field as you can get.

If you're happy to occupy that space, and you seem to be very happy, then so be it.

So here's another opinion.

We drafted ( just to remind you) five ready to go players.

One of them a genuine A grade midfielder, a key defender who is predicted to become A grade, a developing midfielder who has speed to burn which we desperately need.

We also drafted a former All Australian ruckman as a backup, again a vital recruitment and a speedy and clever small forward who the reigning premiers would have kept, had we not recruited him.

You also incorrectly claim we traded out of the 2019 draft.

We took three players, all of them with pretty substantial upside, and at least one of them was a steal.

I think what you mean is we didn't trade back to get a top 20 pick.

The club didn't do that because they think Jack Bytel is a better prospect than anyone who might have been on offer.

You make it sound, probably unintentionally, that 2019 was a disaster trade period for our footy club when in fact the opposite is the case.

We hands down won the trade period, grabbed every player we were chasing and still got some talented extra kids as a bonus.

Far from a failure, 2019 trade and draft is a triumph.

But feel free to drown in your sea of negativity.

I forgot to mention, we also appointed a fantastic coach, who I feel sure is going to help us win that all important second premiership before I shuffle off this mortal coil.

Go Sainters.

[saintsRrising]

Yes, though I would not want the club to do this every year.

Our list had some major flaws and the club risked losing more fans in droves unless we became more competitive in 2020.

Improving our list with some seasoned players I also believe will particularly help our better younger players to flourish.

[DJ Higgins]

It was a great idea to get in ready made players it wasn't that we brought in 5 players so much as we had holes that they fill. And that can only be a positive thing.
Paddy will now support Rowan Marshall big time and train him. Funny enough they are the only elite players in our team (FOX)
Brad Hill. straight in and brings speed
Zak Jones. should start due to his pace but needs work on his disposal and decisions making under pressure but still in our top 22
Dougal Howard has so much upside and should start at the expense of Brown which is a shame as he was one of our best players last year
Dan Butler is the only one who wont slot straight in at present. He may play round one but he is not guaranteed as we have a lot of small forwards and he hasn't played afl for a year.

Some people will never be happy regardless of what we do but time will tell. And let be realistic we would be very very lucky to draft 5 players that will all play especially later picks

[Nick_BlueNRG]

Well the consensus is well and truly Yes. I just hope you are all correct. I would like to see a premiership before I meet my maker. I have seen every single Victorian team win a premiserhip except Melbourne and St Kilda. I have even seen most of the non Victorian teams win a premiership.

I hope I'm wrong but if this current list doesn't achieve the ultimate, then by the time we Rebuild and challenge again it will be 2030.

[Sanctorum]

I want honest debate!!!!!

OK Nick, you've had a lot of people respond and disagree with your views, so it's now time to put up or shut up - if you posted this topic merely as a tease to get people worked up, then stop wasting our time and bugger off!!

I am happy to respond Sanctorum.

The only way that we can make this work is if we improve enough so that FA's want to come to us every year. If this doesn't happen then we are doomed and in 3 years time we will be in full Re-Build mode again. I'll tell you why......

1. We completely stuffed the 2014 Draft
2. We completely traded out of the 2019 draft.
3. WE only have one decent pick in the 2020 draft.

This means that in years to come we will not have the amount of quality youth coming through that ALL THE OTHER TEAMS WILL HAVE.

Like I said above, the only way we can make this path that we have chosen work is through FA. So if we don't improve enough next year to entice at least 1 quality FA every year (at least for the next 3 years), then we are gone. Simply and purely because we will not have anywhere near the quality of youngsters that the other teams do.

Fair enough, but you still have not told us precisely what you would have done with the picks we had before the club used them to trade in the 5 experienced players. itemise each pick and let us have the benefit of your expertise to select the players available at that stage in the NAB draft, and ask yourself the question, will these new recruits improve the team to achieve success in 2020?

You are ignoring the fact that St Kilda can not afford to languish as an "also ran" yet again in 2020, with little prospect of success any time soon. If the strategy employed by the club succeeds and St Kilda ascends to play finals then bringing in one or more FAs next year will follow. This is borne out by the trading in the past month, with St Kilda rated by all 5 players as a "destination" club.

Drafting is fraught, as you mention, in 2014 a couple of the high picks who showed so much potential turned out to be duds, that is not unique to St Kilda.

You have successfully elicited some great and well argued responses Nick, not one has come out and agreed with your views...

[B.M]

I think we got 5 handy players... but let’s not kid ourselves, we gave up plenty... especially for Hill.

And we’ve lost Steven, Bruce and a GOP in Newnes.

[Nick_BlueNRG]

I want honest debate!!!!!

OK Nick, you've had a lot of people respond and disagree with your views, so it's now time to put up or shut up - if you posted this topic merely as a tease to get people worked up, then stop wasting our time and bugger off!!

I am happy to respond Sanctorum.

The only way that we can make this work is if we improve enough so that FA's want to come to us every year. If this doesn't happen then we are doomed and in 3 years time we will be in full Re-Build mode again. I'll tell you why......

1. We completely stuffed the 2014 Draft
2. We completely traded out of the 2019 draft.
3. WE only have one decent pick in the 2020 draft.

This means that in years to come we will not have the amount of quality youth coming through that ALL THE OTHER TEAMS WILL HAVE.

Like I said above, the only way we can make this path that we have chosen work is through FA. So if we don't improve enough next year to entice at least 1 quality FA every year (at least for the next 3 years), then we are gone. Simply and purely because we will not have anywhere near the quality of youngsters that the other teams do.

Fair enough, but you still have not told us precisely what you would have done with the picks we had before the club used them to trade in the 5 experienced players. itemise each pick and let us have the benefit of your expertise to select the players available at that stage in the NAB draft, and ask yourself the question, will these new recruits improve the team to achieve success in 2020?

You are ignoring the fact that St Kilda can not afford to languish as an "also ran" yet again in 2020, with little prospect of success any time soon. If the strategy employed by the club succeeds and St Kilda ascends to play finals then bringing in one or more FAs next year will follow. This is borne out by the trading in the past month, with St Kilda rated by all 5 players as a "destination" club.

Drafting is fraught, as you mention, in 2014 a couple of the high picks who showed so much potential turned out to be duds, that is not unique to St Kilda.

You have successfully elicited some great and well argued responses Nick, not one has come out and agreed with your views...

I haven't ignored anything. I would not have gone down the path of improving for the now because I reckon it won't work for the reasons I have stated above. With picks 12 and 18 I would have taken them to the draft and picked best available. I would keep doing this until we make the finals and then, and only then, would have adopted the strategy of this year.

Quick fixes in the AFL DO NOT WORK.

[evertonfc]

I thought we paid overs for the players coming in and recieved unders for the players going out.

With that said, our list looks better now, and there's no question we'd become stale.

There is some expectation about the place - players simply simply have to lift their standards now. That's a good thing.

All in all, we paid a lot - A LOT - but perhaps it was a price that had to be paid. Only time will tell.

[Ghost Like]

I thought we paid overs for the players coming in and recieved unders for the players going out.

With that said, our list looks better now, and there's no question we'd become stale.

There is some expectation about the place - players simply simply have to lift their standards now. That's a good thing.

All in all, we paid a lot - A LOT - but perhaps it was a price that had to be paid. Only time will tell.

Really evortonfc? I'm not sure what we paid overs for in terms of what we missed out on??? I'm also not sure what we gave up that hurts our 2019 position in comparison to where we start and finish in 2020???

To say all that and then say:
"With that said, our list looks better now, and there's no question we'd become stale"
is confusing. Surely you'd rather have a better looking list?

Whether it is or isn't is a moot point, it's what we have. My gauge says I'm looking forward more towards 2020 and beyond than I was towards 2019.

[samuraisaint]

I think we got 5 handy players... but let’s not kid ourselves, we gave up plenty... especially for Hill.

And we’ve lost Steven, Bruce and a GOP in Newnes.

After the round 23 debacle against Sydney, which was right up there with the match in China as the equal most pitiful performance for 2019, the club had to do something.
We can't keep serving up pathetic efforts and keep expecting people to turn up to watch us play.
I think even more players could have gone, and the fact that the club were also apparently shopping around one of our defenders didn't surprise me at all.

[samuraisaint]

I want honest debate!!!!!

OK Nick, you've had a lot of people respond and disagree with your views, so it's now time to put up or shut up - if you posted this topic merely as a tease to get people worked up, then stop wasting our time and bugger off!!

I am happy to respond Sanctorum.

The only way that we can make this work is if we improve enough so that FA's want to come to us every year. If this doesn't happen then we are doomed and in 3 years time we will be in full Re-Build mode again. I'll tell you why......

1. We completely stuffed the 2014 Draft
2. We completely traded out of the 2019 draft.
3. WE only have one decent pick in the 2020 draft.

This means that in years to come we will not have the amount of quality youth coming through that ALL THE OTHER TEAMS WILL HAVE.

Like I said above, the only way we can make this path that we have chosen work is through FA. So if we don't improve enough next year to entice at least 1 quality FA every year (at least for the next 3 years), then we are gone. Simply and purely because we will not have anywhere near the quality of youngsters that the other teams do.

Fair enough, but you still have not told us precisely what you would have done with the picks we had before the club used them to trade in the 5 experienced players. itemise each pick and let us have the benefit of your expertise to select the players available at that stage in the NAB draft, and ask yourself the question, will these new recruits improve the team to achieve success in 2020?

You are ignoring the fact that St Kilda can not afford to languish as an "also ran" yet again in 2020, with little prospect of success any time soon. If the strategy employed by the club succeeds and St Kilda ascends to play finals then bringing in one or more FAs next year will follow. This is borne out by the trading in the past month, with St Kilda rated by all 5 players as a "destination" club.

Drafting is fraught, as you mention, in 2014 a couple of the high picks who showed so much potential turned out to be duds, that is not unique to St Kilda.

You have successfully elicited some great and well argued responses Nick, not one has come out and agreed with your views...

I haven't ignored anything. I would not have gone down the path of improving for the now because I reckon it won't work for the reasons I have stated above. With picks 12 and 18 I would have taken them to the draft and picked best available. I would keep doing this until we make the finals and then, and only then, would have adopted the strategy of this year.

Quick fixes in the AFL DO NOT WORK.

We tried the draft and this has not been successful - yet. We need an injection of talent and experience, and we need to try to land an elite midfielder next year too, perhaps two, to seriously challenge. The final match of 2019 was the last straw as far as I was concerned and would have been first and foremost in the minds of many at the club during the trade period.

[DJ Higgins]

Quick fixes in the AFL DO NOT WORK.

its not really a quick fix. We have traded in players to fill in holes in our team but we still have more work to do. We do not have a top ten forward mid or back squad and have a lot of young guys coming thru. as i mentioned in a previous post I don't think we will move up the ladder much in 2020 but we will play better footy. I am expecting by the second half of the season things start to click and hopefully we are done with the large blowouts for a while.

Hunter should be great this year especially with the new mids around him this year, Coffield is still coming along, King will take time to get good but expect the odd glimpse of brilliance, Bytel will come in the second half of the year. I think 2021 will be our moving year

[skeptic]

Do the math

Hill in for Steven... we’ll get more years
Howard in for Bruce... other end of the grand but no major change to the profile
Jones in for Acres... same as the above

The only quick fix is Ryder.

So let me ask this...
are the players traded in representing more value than failed draft picks?

[sunsaint]

I think it is a pretty valid question to ask - and its a pity it hasnt received more balanced responses

Personally I can admit Im way out of sync at draft time between what I think and what the club does
so for me November is just a bit of confusing fun

For what its worth I think the OP question should be expanded to the last few drafts and then ask if we have paid a heavy price for draftees and trades
Last year alone we had three that couldnt get on the park and carried quite a few on the list as well so it builds the anxiety in supporters a bit

Regardless of personal opinions - THE single most obvious hole in the list has not been addressed in three years that being a player either drafted or traded that is sub 25 and a game champion A list on-baller
Clubs build dynasties around such a player

[freely]

It didn't really matter what the club did this trade period - the two in the bank from last year will make it look as if the changes have been brilliant.

[B.M]

We tried the draft and it didn’t work?

Surely that’s because we took the wrong players, not because it doesn’t work??

And yes, we gave up a lot for Hill
A First, Second and Third Round pick and Acres
Head out of Arse here
That is a massive price

[The Barometer]

We tried the draft and it didn’t work?

Surely that’s because we took the wrong players, not because it doesn’t work??

And yes, we gave up a lot for Hill
A First, Second and Third Round pick and Acres
Head out of Arse here
That is a massive price

Except we also got Howard and Ryder for the original first. Not so massive really.

[Wayne42]

We need to draft another Key Forward, maybe even next year, if our Forward line struggles in 2020.

[evertonfc]

Really evortonfc? I'm not sure what we paid overs for in terms of what we missed out on???

Geez, look at the Hill trade. We paid market overs, both in contract and trade value.

But Geelong paid market overs for an inconsistent Brad Ottens, and eventually he played a role in three flags.

Sometimes, the price is worth it, and can become justified in hindsight. That's what I hope happens with Hill. We've braced ourselves for that reality.

You could say the Dogs got value out of the Tom Boyd deal because of what he delivered on the only day that matters, even if the fee was out of this world. They got a flag and you might say that's all that matters. Fair enough.

I'm not sure people understand this nuance but I can't be bothered explaining it further.

I'm also not sure what we gave up that hurts our 2019 position in comparison to where we start and finish in 2020???

Incoherent sentence.

"With that said, our list looks better now, and there's no question we'd become stale"
is confusing. Surely you'd rather have a better looking list?

A top-up merchant! Can't have enough of that late 1980s-thinking.

You must have loved it when Brisbane went after Fev, Staker, Raines and Buchanon for their tilt at the top.

Whether it is or isn't is a moot point, it's what we have. My gauge says I'm looking forward more towards 2020 and beyond than I was towards 2019.

Yeah, right - that's great and all, but I'm probably looking at 2022 and 2023 to scoot up the ladder and build a decade of prolonged success through strategic planning, intelligent drafting, value trading and coherent list management.

But I also hope we make the eight in 2020. Just think there's more to a sustainable, successful footy club than going for broke in a 12-month period.

[SMS]

Bruce (keyf) out, Howard (keyb) in -- TEAM BALANCE WIN & FUTURE WIN AND MAYBE MASSIVE WIN
Acres out, Hill in -- MASSIVE WIN
Newnes out, Jones in --- GOOD WIN
Steven out, Butler in --- MASSIVE CURRENT LOSS / FUTURE WIN
Longer out, Ryder in --- MASSIVE WIN
Pierce out, Bell in - I LIKE IT
Rice (hbf) out, Byrnes (mid) in - TEAM BALANCE AND MASSIVE WIN
White (hbf) out, Connolley in - WHO CARES MAYBE A WIN

------
Bytel, Gresham, Byrnes, Sinclair - Midfield
We got Butler/Kent for this reason.
People have to understand team balance.

With Ratts in charge things will get sorted.
Parker/Long could be anything.

King/Membrey/Battle upforward.

We will be a good team in 2020
We will be a great team in 2022 when Bytel/Bell/Byrnes surprise in the midfield and King/Battle become elite superstar forwards.

[outside66]

Yes. No debate required.

[Nick_BlueNRG]

Yes. No debate required.

[Viscount Jeremiah]

Yes, it was needed.

If ever our list needed an overhaul it was this year.

As long as we don't do this too often I'm on with it. next year we should focus on kids

[Trev from the Bush]

Yes. No debate required.

When the debate is over, its instigator wants to argue.