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To the top wrote: ↑Mon 25 Nov 2019 12:55pm
Ross has glaring deficiencies and the reason St Kilda is a bottom side is aligned to Ross winning our Best & Fairest
Ditto Geary as Captain
Ross, as a mid, has kicked just 22 goals in 124 games
Simply, his disposals do not result in St Kilda scoring confirmed also by the above statistic
And compare to Armitage and Steven
The reason I rated Acres above the likes of Ross, Steele and Dunstan was that Acres disposals when allowed to play as a mid resulted in goals
What I said.
I rated Acres too, but not ahead of Ross or Steele.
B.M wrote: ↑Mon 25 Nov 2019 8:38am
Richo was not the only person who voted
Doesn’t matter who you thought should have been b&f
It only matters who actually was
Ross has won 2 x TB awards
Oh,
And line breaking... Ross has the fastest acceleration and speed of all our Mids.
I knew you would mention his acceleration, pity he doesn't use it after he gets the ball. He is an impressive athlete but disappointingly average with the ball in hand. Purely a stoppage footballer, which is not a problem, he just has to accept it and exploit his power to bring line breakers and good ball users into the game.
when you say it's a pity he doesn't use it after he gets the ball and is average with ball in hand what exactly do you mean? Statistically he's very impressive on nearly every measure and up there with the best in the comp with how he uses the ball.
He reads the fall of the ball well at stoppages but often stops and changes direction when he has it, usually to get onto his preferred foot. He often turns in an arch and kicks blindly.
He often slows down to kick and doesn't trust himself enough to hit a 30m pass to a leading forward, this could be a lot better.
When it works we gain advantage, when it doesn't it puts undue pressure on our forwards and outside runners and it looks like the bomb forward is our game plan.
On the inside he waits too long to handball, usually trying to evade or absorb a tackle. His periphal vision is not great and certainly not a natural skill for him.
Almost all of these possessions count as effective and metres gained.
These are not knocks but I believe they are a fair assesment of his abilities.
When he gets out on his own he can be damaging but he rarely gets back and rarely pushes forward.
He is a great athlete, a powerful, possession accumulating stoppage player.
Steele and Dunstan go under-rated making space for him.
It seems like you are critiquing either his technique or the game plan, his effective disposal, disposal efficiency and meters gained are all around the elite level for past 2 years, if he's not trusting himself to hit a 30m pass then he's still doing it as good as anyone in the elite category.
BTW
Ross has been judged the best player on the field 7 times, and best 3 players on the ground 21 times!! not bad for a guy who has no impact on games?!
Acres has 2 career Brownlow votes and his careers at StK was largely disappointing.
B.M wrote: ↑Mon 25 Nov 2019 4:55pm
You rate Acres above Steele
FFS!!!!
BTW
Ross has been judged the best player on the field 7 times, and best 3 players on the ground 21 times!! not bad for a guy who has no impact on games?!
Acres has 2 career Brownlow votes and his careers at StK was largely disappointing.
Steele ranks 33rd, 10 places behind Ross in player rankings for midfielders. His job is to help Ross win best on ground votes by tagging the opponents best mids and he does it really well. Dunstan is not far behind.
B.M wrote: ↑Mon 25 Nov 2019 8:38am
Richo was not the only person who voted
Doesn’t matter who you thought should have been b&f
It only matters who actually was
Ross has won 2 x TB awards
Oh,
And line breaking... Ross has the fastest acceleration and speed of all our Mids.
I knew you would mention his acceleration, pity he doesn't use it after he gets the ball. He is an impressive athlete but disappointingly average with the ball in hand. Purely a stoppage footballer, which is not a problem, he just has to accept it and exploit his power to bring line breakers and good ball users into the game.
when you say it's a pity he doesn't use it after he gets the ball and is average with ball in hand what exactly do you mean? Statistically he's very impressive on nearly every measure and up there with the best in the comp with how he uses the ball.
He reads the fall of the ball well at stoppages but often stops and changes direction when he has it, usually to get onto his preferred foot. He often turns in an arch and kicks blindly.
He often slows down to kick and doesn't trust himself enough to hit a 30m pass to a leading forward, this could be a lot better.
When it works we gain advantage, when it doesn't it puts undue pressure on our forwards and outside runners and it looks like the bomb forward is our game plan.
On the inside he waits too long to handball, usually trying to evade or absorb a tackle. His periphal vision is not great and certainly not a natural skill for him.
Almost all of these possessions count as effective and metres gained.
These are not knocks but I believe they are a fair assesment of his abilities.
When he gets out on his own he can be damaging but he rarely gets back and rarely pushes forward.
He is a great athlete, a powerful, possession accumulating stoppage player.
Steele and Dunstan go under-rated making space for him.
It seems like you are critiquing either his technique or the game plan, his effective disposal, disposal efficiency and meters gained are all around the elite level for past 2 years, if he's not trusting himself to hit a 30m pass then he's still doing it as good as anyone in the elite category.
Ross ranking over the last 2 years hasn't changed.from the previous period. His ranking score is mid 400's.
The elite are pushing 550+. Fyfe gets 607 points from an average of 4 more possession.
Ross is an elite accumulator at stoppages and his outside game means he backs up for a handball. Effective disposal and disposal efficiency is totally subjective. Impact is a completely different thing.
B.M wrote: ↑Mon 25 Nov 2019 8:38am
Richo was not the only person who voted
Doesn’t matter who you thought should have been b&f
It only matters who actually was
Ross has won 2 x TB awards
Oh,
And line breaking... Ross has the fastest acceleration and speed of all our Mids.
I knew you would mention his acceleration, pity he doesn't use it after he gets the ball. He is an impressive athlete but disappointingly average with the ball in hand. Purely a stoppage footballer, which is not a problem, he just has to accept it and exploit his power to bring line breakers and good ball users into the game.
when you say it's a pity he doesn't use it after he gets the ball and is average with ball in hand what exactly do you mean? Statistically he's very impressive on nearly every measure and up there with the best in the comp with how he uses the ball.
He reads the fall of the ball well at stoppages but often stops and changes direction when he has it, usually to get onto his preferred foot. He often turns in an arch and kicks blindly.
He often slows down to kick and doesn't trust himself enough to hit a 30m pass to a leading forward, this could be a lot better.
When it works we gain advantage, when it doesn't it puts undue pressure on our forwards and outside runners and it looks like the bomb forward is our game plan.
On the inside he waits too long to handball, usually trying to evade or absorb a tackle. His periphal vision is not great and certainly not a natural skill for him.
Almost all of these possessions count as effective and metres gained.
These are not knocks but I believe they are a fair assesment of his abilities.
When he gets out on his own he can be damaging but he rarely gets back and rarely pushes forward.
He is a great athlete, a powerful, possession accumulating stoppage player.
Steele and Dunstan go under-rated making space for him.
It seems like you are critiquing either his technique or the game plan, his effective disposal, disposal efficiency and meters gained are all around the elite level for past 2 years, if he's not trusting himself to hit a 30m pass then he's still doing it as good as anyone in the elite category.
Ross ranking over the last 2 years hasn't changed.from the previous period. His ranking score is mid 400's.
The elite are pushing 550+. Fyfe gets 607 points from an average of 4 more possession.
Ross is an elite accumulator at stoppages and his outside game means he backs up for a handball. Effective disposal and disposal efficiency is totally subjective. Impact is a completely different thing.
I like what you did there but the thing we are talking about isn't subjective.
B.M wrote: ↑Mon 25 Nov 2019 8:38am
Richo was not the only person who voted
Doesn’t matter who you thought should have been b&f
It only matters who actually was
Ross has won 2 x TB awards
Oh,
And line breaking... Ross has the fastest acceleration and speed of all our Mids.
I knew you would mention his acceleration, pity he doesn't use it after he gets the ball. He is an impressive athlete but disappointingly average with the ball in hand. Purely a stoppage footballer, which is not a problem, he just has to accept it and exploit his power to bring line breakers and good ball users into the game.
when you say it's a pity he doesn't use it after he gets the ball and is average with ball in hand what exactly do you mean? Statistically he's very impressive on nearly every measure and up there with the best in the comp with how he uses the ball.
He reads the fall of the ball well at stoppages but often stops and changes direction when he has it, usually to get onto his preferred foot. He often turns in an arch and kicks blindly.
He often slows down to kick and doesn't trust himself enough to hit a 30m pass to a leading forward, this could be a lot better.
When it works we gain advantage, when it doesn't it puts undue pressure on our forwards and outside runners and it looks like the bomb forward is our game plan.
On the inside he waits too long to handball, usually trying to evade or absorb a tackle. His periphal vision is not great and certainly not a natural skill for him.
Almost all of these possessions count as effective and metres gained.
These are not knocks but I believe they are a fair assesment of his abilities.
When he gets out on his own he can be damaging but he rarely gets back and rarely pushes forward.
He is a great athlete, a powerful, possession accumulating stoppage player.
Steele and Dunstan go under-rated making space for him.
It seems like you are critiquing either his technique or the game plan, his effective disposal, disposal efficiency and meters gained are all around the elite level for past 2 years, if he's not trusting himself to hit a 30m pass then he's still doing it as good as anyone in the elite category.
Ross ranking over the last 2 years hasn't changed.from the previous period. His ranking score is mid 400's.
The elite are pushing 550+. Fyfe gets 607 points from an average of 4 more possession.
Ross is an elite accumulator at stoppages and his outside game means he backs up for a handball. Effective disposal and disposal efficiency is totally subjective. Impact is a completely different thing.
I like what you did there but the thing we are talking about isn't subjective.
I haven't changed my argument and I really do appreciate Ross for what he produces. Let's hope he can produce more with a few more good ball users around him. He isnt crap, he is good but his ball use and impact, compared to his output, could be better.
B.M wrote: ↑Mon 25 Nov 2019 8:57pm
Exactly how are you measuring’impact’
You can measure
Metres gained
Efficiency
Stats
Distance, speed and acceleration
And on those measures
Ross is a pretty good footballer
You don’t win multiple b&fs if you’re not
Yeah. Ross is a good footballer. Probably in the top 50 in the league and if you were going to make sides of the current top 100 he would make the 4th side.
On the list of St.Kilda's B&F winners in the last 20 years....well he makes the list. Credit where credit is due.
CQ SAINT wrote: ↑Mon 25 Nov 2019 9:44pm
Yeah. Ross is a good footballer. Probably in the top 50 in the league and if you were going to make sides of the current top 100 he would make the 4th side.
On the list of St.Kilda's B&F winners in the last 20 years....well he makes the list. Credit where credit is due.
I agree with most you have said on Seb. He hit the 30 disposals a game 2 years ago. He is developing his attacking game (top 20 bounces this year) whilst learning to deal with taggers.
Hopefully he is like his cousin and has another 20% improvement in him from this age. I think he is really improving. If so Seb will truly be elite amongst the AFL shortly.
Seb won his B&Fs in 2017 and 2019 when we won 11 and 9 games respectively... so we weren’t that bad, and he was judged our best.
On the other hand Jack Steven won two of hisB&Fs in 2013 and 2018 when we won 4 games
So are those B&Fs rated or credible?
I’m definitely not saying Seb is as good as Jack was, he’s not... but to suggest he’s a plodder and not as good as a fringe player who never Ever finished top ten in a B&F (even McKenzie did that!)
Is absolutely ridiculous
I seriously hope JACK BYTEL ends up as good as Ross
B.M wrote: ↑Sat 23 Nov 2019 6:08pm
Coaches only see that stuff
And have voted him B&F two of the last three seasons
Dylan Roberton should have been the winner of the TBM in 2017. In my opinion, Robbo was more important for our wins than Ross in that particular season.
Robbo probably our most attacking player (from the back half) since Chips.
I reckon if Richo wasn't coach, Ross wouldn't have had 2 B&F's. Yes he has been a good player for us and credit to him for his consistency, but not our mvp and wasn't in 2017 either
I'm guessing you don't understand how the TBM votes are assessed.
Thanks Cairnsman for your response
I'm guessing you don't know the difference between art and science...but we all know you're an antagonistic <edited by mods> and it's just how you operate when it comes to debating a topic
Hawthorn had Josh Gibson win a best and fairest as a backman when it could have easily been a mid like Lewis or Mitchell
Try not to be so condescending. Voting is subjective. It's not based on mathematical formulas.
<1 day ban for commenting negatively on a poster >
understandably you are embarrassed about suggesting a coach can rig the B&F system and want to deflect.
back on topic: if Bytel is capable of taking over Seb, as has been suggested in this thread then that is really exciting, one can only dream but he's got a way to go yet for that possibility to transpire. Seb and 30+ stat games he produced over the past 2 seasons has been underrated, even unnoticed by those outside the club, and all in a midfield with not much depth so he would have most likely attracted the most focus from the opposition coaches. If at times he looked like he zigged when he should have zagged then that would have been most likely due to complete and utter exhaustion.
The boys in our midfield have done a tough apprenticeship over the past 5 years.
B.M wrote: ↑Tue 26 Nov 2019 8:25am
Why do supporters undersell Ross and Geary?
Two of our actual best performed players in recent times
I know the industry rates them as our best players, yet supporters like to downplay them for whatever reason?
Shows what a lot of supporters know
I prefer to leave 'ours' and 'theirs' out of the assessments and just look at the tangible qualities of the player.
Geary is a great lock down small defender and Ross is a good stoppage player who may yet improve his outside game. Simple really.
I think these descriptions are widely accepted and very close to the mark.
Both of them are great athletes and would be useful and welcomed in any list.
What I said.
