Paddy to be delisted

[saynta]

Thread has been done to death. Move on guys. Nothing to see here.

Got any conversation starters we can use as an alternative?

No, but I am really over reading uninformed crap about a former player.

[Secret Kiel]

Thread has been done to death. Move on guys. Nothing to see here.

Got any conversation starters we can use as an alternative?

No, but I am really over reading uninformed crap about a former player.

I feel ya! For whatever reason people confuse the reason for his delisting with things like fitness, muscle tone, agility and even his diabetes.

[B.M]

Not really

It has been stated that his lack of conditioning is perhaps due to his diabetes? Or laziness, or poor diet??

And was a factor for his mediocre output over his first 3 years.

Some questioned whether his lack of conditioning contributed to him getting KOd so often, or was it just poor technique or bad luck.
Others asked the question about whether diabetes effected his ability to recover from head knocks?

All valid discussion points

Concussions or not, I am certain he was the wrong selection at pick 1.

[cwrcyn]

We had the misfortune of having the number one pick in the wrong year. It was a weak draft. Still, a perplexing decision. Petracca, although a better player (and outcome), if thrown into a time machine and taken back to 2001, would not make the top 20

[cwrcyn]

McCartin would not have made the top 30

[Secret Kiel]

Not really

It has been stated that his lack of conditioning is perhaps due to his diabetes? Or laziness, or poor diet??

And was a factor for his mediocre output over his first 3 years.

Some questioned whether his lack of conditioning contributed to him getting KOd so often, or was it just poor technique or bad luck.
Others asked the question about whether diabetes effected his ability to recover from head knocks?

All valid discussion points

Concussions or not, I am certain he was the wrong selection at pick 1.

questions being raised by the misguided are completely acceptable and valid discussion points on a fan forum. A clock is right twice a day.

[sendmehomehappy]

Concussions aside

Paddy still could not reach AFL standard fitness, therefore made little impact.

No doubt his diabetes had some bearing on his inability to get an AFL body

Exactly.

And most likely due to his inability to get fit he was more prone to get hit as he couldn’t avoid the knocks as easily.

The diabetes probably impacted his recovery from the head knocks.

It’s a vicious cycle guys.

pure misguided BS

Why?

You don’t think his diabetes that wasn’t under control impacted his inability to get to peak fitness, or anywhere close to it?

Diabetes does not make you more prone to collisions on an AFL field. Pure and simple.

Mate, poorly controlled diabetes of any type, but especially type 1, could lead to a greater than the average person's rate of concussions by simply walking down an aisle in Woolies.

[Secret Kiel]

Concussions aside

Paddy still could not reach AFL standard fitness, therefore made little impact.

No doubt his diabetes had some bearing on his inability to get an AFL body

Exactly.

And most likely due to his inability to get fit he was more prone to get hit as he couldn’t avoid the knocks as easily.

The diabetes probably impacted his recovery from the head knocks.

It’s a vicious cycle guys.

pure misguided BS

Why?

You don’t think his diabetes that wasn’t under control impacted his inability to get to peak fitness, or anywhere close to it?

Diabetes does not make you more prone to collisions on an AFL field. Pure and simple.

Mate, poorly controlled diabetes of any type, but especially type 1, could lead to a greater than the average person's rate of concussions by simply walking down an aisle in Woolies.

For concussion to happen there needs to be a collision with the head, I stand to be corrected on this but I don't think you can sustain concussion from walking down the isle in Woolies.

I stand to be corrected on this also but I don't think diabetes can cause a collision to the head.

An interesting and unverified piece of information, about 6-7 players per team are effected by concussion each season and the rate of concussion in AFL is higher than NFL and since the class action by NFL players in 2011, claims against NFL are rising much faster than predicted. There is currently a class action by former AFL players against the AFL.

The reason Paddy has been delisted is because of concussion issues. Pure and simple.

[damienc]

Not really

It has been stated that his lack of conditioning is perhaps due to his diabetes? Or laziness, or poor diet??

And was a factor for his mediocre output over his first 3 years.

Some questioned whether his lack of conditioning contributed to him getting KOd so often, or was it just poor technique or bad luck.
Others asked the question about whether diabetes effected his ability to recover from head knocks?

All valid discussion points

Concussions or not, I am certain he was the wrong selection at pick 1.

questions being raised by the misguided are completely acceptable and valid discussion points on a fan forum. A clock is right twice a day.

You sound very much like a self appointed expert on this topic. With emphasis on the 'self appointed'.

My emphasis.

But in reality you are just another punter on here with an opinion.

And an opinion is like an anus. Everyone's got one.

[skeptic]

I would say that Paddy’s prospects of becoming a good/elite AFL player have at least influenced the decision to delist him. If he was, for example, having a similar to greater impact as Membrey the club would pbly have kept him on the list whilst continuing to try and work through the challenges

The fact that he doesn’t look likely to make it makes keeping him a lot less appealing.

Yes one could argue that the concussions have stifled his development... but there are other arguments being made about the impact of his diabetes on his ability to reach peak conditioning. Long bow to defintively draw either way

[Ghost Like]

Not really

It has been stated that his lack of conditioning is perhaps due to his diabetes? Or laziness, or poor diet??

And was a factor for his mediocre output over his first 3 years.

Some questioned whether his lack of conditioning contributed to him getting KOd so often, or was it just poor technique or bad luck.
Others asked the question about whether diabetes effected his ability to recover from head knocks?

All valid discussion points

Concussions or not, I am certain he was the wrong selection at pick 1.

questions being raised by the misguided are completely acceptable and valid discussion points on a fan forum. A clock is right twice a day.

That would be a broken clock. A working clock could be wrong ever minute of the day.

[Secret Kiel]

I would say that Paddy’s prospects of becoming a good/elite AFL player have at least influenced the decision to delist him. If he was, for example, having a similar to greater impact as Membrey the club would pbly have kept him on the list whilst continuing to try and work through the challenges

The fact that he doesn’t look likely to make it makes keeping him a lot less appealing.

Yes one could argue that the concussions have stifled his development... but there are other arguments being made about the impact of his diabetes on his ability to reach peak conditioning. Long bow to defintively draw either way

The club are on the record as saying Paddy's prospects of not becoming an AFL player due to concussion influenced their decision to delist him. It's plain and simple. This makes all other discussions about why he was delisted irrelevant.

[samuraisaint]

Not really

It has been stated that his lack of conditioning is perhaps due to his diabetes? Or laziness, or poor diet??

And was a factor for his mediocre output over his first 3 years.

Some questioned whether his lack of conditioning contributed to him getting KOd so often, or was it just poor technique or bad luck.
Others asked the question about whether diabetes effected his ability to recover from head knocks?

All valid discussion points

Concussions or not, I am certain he was the wrong selection at pick 1.

questions being raised by the misguided are completely acceptable and valid discussion points on a fan forum. A clock is right twice a day.

That would be a broken clock. A working clock could be wrong ever minute of the day.

Nothing like a bit of the old mixing metaphors - fool me once - shame on, shame on you - fool me... you can't get fooled again.

[Moods]

I would say that Paddy’s prospects of becoming a good/elite AFL player have at least influenced the decision to delist him. If he was, for example, having a similar to greater impact as Membrey the club would pbly have kept him on the list whilst continuing to try and work through the challenges

The fact that he doesn’t look likely to make it makes keeping him a lot less appealing.

Yes one could argue that the concussions have stifled his development... but there are other arguments being made about the impact of his diabetes on his ability to reach peak conditioning. Long bow to defintively draw either way

The club are on the record as saying Paddy's prospects of not becoming an AFL player due to concussion influenced their decision to delist him. It's plain and simple. This makes all other discussions about why he was delisted irrelevant.

Irrelevant. In your opinion. Doesn’t make you right mate. The club are hardly going to come out and state, we got pick 1 wrong and we cannot see Paddy ever being an AFL footballer of note. Concussion issues contributed to this

[Secret Kiel]

I would say that Paddy’s prospects of becoming a good/elite AFL player have at least influenced the decision to delist him. If he was, for example, having a similar to greater impact as Membrey the club would pbly have kept him on the list whilst continuing to try and work through the challenges

The fact that he doesn’t look likely to make it makes keeping him a lot less appealing.

Yes one could argue that the concussions have stifled his development... but there are other arguments being made about the impact of his diabetes on his ability to reach peak conditioning. Long bow to defintively draw either way

The club are on the record as saying Paddy's prospects of not becoming an AFL player due to concussion influenced their decision to delist him. It's plain and simple. This makes all other discussions about why he was delisted irrelevant.

Irrelevant. In your opinion. Doesn’t make you right mate. The club are hardly going to come out and state, we got pick 1 wrong and we cannot see Paddy ever being an AFL footballer of note. Concussion issues contributed to this

It is fact Paddy has been delisted due to concussion issues and that is all. There is no other reason, just concussion. Do you think the club, or any club sits down and says, "ok lets have a discussion about which DPs we got wrong" and then sets off to delist players on that basis.

Nah. The irrational obsession about apportioning blame over wrong draft selections is left to a very small proportion of fans.

[Moods]

I would say that Paddy’s prospects of becoming a good/elite AFL player have at least influenced the decision to delist him. If he was, for example, having a similar to greater impact as Membrey the club would pbly have kept him on the list whilst continuing to try and work through the challenges

The fact that he doesn’t look likely to make it makes keeping him a lot less appealing.

Yes one could argue that the concussions have stifled his development... but there are other arguments being made about the impact of his diabetes on his ability to reach peak conditioning. Long bow to defintively draw either way

The club are on the record as saying Paddy's prospects of not becoming an AFL player due to concussion influenced their decision to delist him. It's plain and simple. This makes all other discussions about why he was delisted irrelevant.

Irrelevant. In your opinion. Doesn’t make you right mate. The club are hardly going to come out and state, we got pick 1 wrong and we cannot see Paddy ever being an AFL footballer of note. Concussion issues contributed to this

It is fact Paddy has been delisted due to concussion issues and that is all. There is no other reason, just concussion. Do you think the club, or any club sits down and says, "ok lets have a discussion about which DPs we got wrong" and then sets off to delist players on that basis.

Nah. The irrational obsession about apportioning blame over wrong draft selections is left to a very small proportion of fans.

What I think they do, is sit down and discuss which players are going to have a meaningful career at the StKilda footy club, both short and long term. My point is if Paddy had been having a huge impact in the 30 odd games he played but kept getting injured, then the club most definitely would have kept him on the list. He basically had shown glimpses of what he was capable of, but no-one will ever really know. So delisting him and stating concussion issues (which of course is true as well) is palatable.

If Paddy hadn't had concussion issues and he wanted to leave the Saints what sort of interest do you think he'd generate from his 4 years playing?? I reckon he would be a 3rd rounder myself based on what he has done so far and his athletic potential. Clubs would trade for him based on hoping he would come good or that they could turn his career around. Clubs definitely wouldn't be giving up 1st or 2nd round picks for an injury free Paddy McCartin imo. But they would be open to having him on their list because he was a #1 draft pick and they hope he will turn things around.

[Secret Kiel]

I would say that Paddy’s prospects of becoming a good/elite AFL player have at least influenced the decision to delist him. If he was, for example, having a similar to greater impact as Membrey the club would pbly have kept him on the list whilst continuing to try and work through the challenges

The fact that he doesn’t look likely to make it makes keeping him a lot less appealing.

Yes one could argue that the concussions have stifled his development... but there are other arguments being made about the impact of his diabetes on his ability to reach peak conditioning. Long bow to defintively draw either way

The club are on the record as saying Paddy's prospects of not becoming an AFL player due to concussion influenced their decision to delist him. It's plain and simple. This makes all other discussions about why he was delisted irrelevant.

Irrelevant. In your opinion. Doesn’t make you right mate. The club are hardly going to come out and state, we got pick 1 wrong and we cannot see Paddy ever being an AFL footballer of note. Concussion issues contributed to this

It is fact Paddy has been delisted due to concussion issues and that is all. There is no other reason, just concussion. Do you think the club, or any club sits down and says, "ok lets have a discussion about which DPs we got wrong" and then sets off to delist players on that basis.

Nah. The irrational obsession about apportioning blame over wrong draft selections is left to a very small proportion of fans.

What I think they do, is sit down and discuss which players are going to have a meaningful career at the StKilda footy club, both short and long term. My point is if Paddy had been having a huge impact in the 30 odd games he played but kept getting injured, then the club most definitely would have kept him on the list. He basically had shown glimpses of what he was capable of, but no-one will ever really know. So delisting him and stating concussion issues (which of course is true as well) is palatable.

If Paddy hadn't had concussion issues and he wanted to leave the Saints what sort of interest do you think he'd generate from his 4 years playing?? I reckon he would be a 3rd rounder myself based on what he has done so far and his athletic potential. Clubs would trade for him based on hoping he would come good or that they could turn his career around. Clubs definitely wouldn't be giving up 1st or 2nd round picks for an injury free Paddy McCartin imo. But they would be open to having him on their list because he was a #1 draft pick and they hope he will turn things around.

yep. probably took about 30 seconds to decide he wasn't going to have a meaningful career in the short term due to concussion issues. All the other stuff you mention would not have come up. Concussion is the reason he has been delisted. nothing else has come into the decision making. pure and simple.

[Shaggy]

Paddy could play. He averaged 4.5 marks a game over his 4 years despite lack of continuity in game time due to injury.

IMO Paddy is better than Petracca but he was always injured and that is unlikely to change now due to concussion.

The risk adverse think we should never have taken Paddy because he was diabetes type 1. But Dale Weightman was Diabetes type 1 and very worthy of a Draft 1.

Saints made a call that Petracca was not worthy of pick 1. That was a great call. What they did not predict is Paddy's concussions. We have lost Stevens, Pierce, Longer and Paddy due to concussion in the past 2 years. Concussion does not discriminate based on draft number.

[skeptic]

The club are on the record as saying Paddy's prospects of not becoming an AFL player due to concussion influenced their decision to delist him. It's plain and simple. This makes all other discussions about why he was delisted irrelevant.

Irrelevant. In your opinion. Doesn’t make you right mate. The club are hardly going to come out and state, we got pick 1 wrong and we cannot see Paddy ever being an AFL footballer of note. Concussion issues contributed to this

It is fact Paddy has been delisted due to concussion issues and that is all. There is no other reason, just concussion. Do you think the club, or any club sits down and says, "ok lets have a discussion about which DPs we got wrong" and then sets off to delist players on that basis.

Nah. The irrational obsession about apportioning blame over wrong draft selections is left to a very small proportion of fans.

What I think they do, is sit down and discuss which players are going to have a meaningful career at the StKilda footy club, both short and long term. My point is if Paddy had been having a huge impact in the 30 odd games he played but kept getting injured, then the club most definitely would have kept him on the list. He basically had shown glimpses of what he was capable of, but no-one will ever really know. So delisting him and stating concussion issues (which of course is true as well) is palatable.

If Paddy hadn't had concussion issues and he wanted to leave the Saints what sort of interest do you think he'd generate from his 4 years playing?? I reckon he would be a 3rd rounder myself based on what he has done so far and his athletic potential. Clubs would trade for him based on hoping he would come good or that they could turn his career around. Clubs definitely wouldn't be giving up 1st or 2nd round picks for an injury free Paddy McCartin imo. But they would be open to having him on their list because he was a #1 draft pick and they hope he will turn things around.

Paddy could play. He averaged 4.5 marks a game over his 4 years despite lack of continuity in game time due to injury.

IMO Paddy is better than Petracca but he was always injured and that is unlikely to change now due to concussion.

The risk adverse think we should never have taken Paddy because he was diabetes type 1. But Dale Weightman was Diabetes type 1 and very worthy of a Draft 1.

Saints made a call that Petracca was not worthy of pick 1. That was a great call. What they did not predict is Paddy's concussions. We have lost Stevens, Pierce, Longer and Paddy due to concussion in the past 2 years. Concussion does not discriminate based on draft number.

The overwhelming consensus at the time amongst fans and media alike was that Petracca was the better prospect and IIRC all but 2 clubs had Petracca at one and a few had him at three.

Had nothing to do with his diabetes. The concern at the time as per write ups and footage was the concern that his dominance may have had to do with his size/strength.

I think it’s pretty silly to suggest that Paddy has demonstrated that he is a better player that Petracca. Not based in reality... certainly not on anything that has been seen.

The reality is that Paddy showed some potential early. Looked like a decent set shot and took a few contested grabs... to even say that he was definitely a player but was cruelled by injury is wishful thinking. Plenty of players have demonstrated more and fallen away.
Some of Tom Lee’s early games forward were decent... Ahmad Saad looked a player after a year. Injury effected Paddy absolutely... regardless, his kicking and marking fell away markedly in year three even when he was stringing games together

[B.M]

Petracca has not had a bad career to date

Averages over a goal and has played 90 games

[Shaggy]

The overwhelming consensus at the time amongst fans and media alike was that Petracca was the better prospect and IIRC all but 2 clubs had Petracca at one and a few had him at three.

Had nothing to do with his diabetes. The concern at the time as per write ups and footage was the concern that his dominance may have had to do with his size/strength.

I think it’s pretty silly to suggest that Paddy has demonstrated that he is a better player that Petracca. Not based in reality... certainly not on anything that has been seen.

The reality is that Paddy showed some potential early. Looked like a decent set shot and took a few contested grabs... to even say that he was definitely a player but was cruelled by injury is wishful thinking. Plenty of players have demonstrated more and fallen away.
Some of Tom Lee’s early games forward were decent... Ahmad Saad looked a player after a year. Injury effected Paddy absolutely... regardless, his kicking and marking fell away markedly in year three even when he was stringing games together

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... d381825342

Jon Anderson profiles the Under 18s class of 2014, predicts top 20 draft picks
Jon Anderson, Herald Sun
June 26, 2014 3:35pm

IN an AFL draft rated the most open in a decade, one performance over the coming weeks could determine which way recruiters go at the very top.

ANDO’S POTENTIAL TOP 20

1: Patrick McCartin (194cm, Geelong Falcons): Pace (tick) hands (tick) strength (tick) kicking (tick), McCartin covers the required bases for a key forward.

2: Peter Wright (203cm, Calder Cannons): A ruckman/forward who has always hovered around the top five for the 2014 draft.

3: Sam Durdin (196cm, West Adelaide): Has the advantage of being able to play both ends but has had a poor championship series to date.

4: Christian Petracca (186cm, Eastern Ranges): Rocketing up the charts. Has a genuine X factor either as a bullocking forward or midfielder.

5: Jarrod Pickett (179cm, South Fremantle): Each outing confirms his standing as an indigenous forward/midfielder of serious style.

6: Isaac Heeney (186cm, Sydney Academy): Under the Academy rules, Sydney can draft this hard-running midfielder, but will have to bid for him same as father/son bidding.

7: Angus Brayshaw (187c, Sandringham Dragons): A tallish, strong-bodied midfielder that Melbourne would love to acquire. Very consistent.

8: Tom Lamb (193cm, Dandenong Stingrays): A player capable of extreme highs as either a goalkicking forward or high possession midfielder.

9: Hugh Goddard (195cm, Geelong Falcons): A long-time top 5 pick who has slipped after a mediocre championships to date.

10: Caleb Marchbank (193cm, Murray Bushrangers): Hasn’t done his chances any harm in the championships and is athletic enough to play most positions.

11: Jake Lever (192cm, Calder Cannons): Won’t be seen at the championships due to a knee reconstruction but remains extremely highly thought of as a defender.

12: Lachie Weller (181cm, Gold Coast Academy): A goal kicking midfielder who can influence play via his disposal. Brother of St Kilda’s Mav.

13: Corey Ellis (185cm, Western Jets): Can win his own ball and use it with his left-foot. Regarded as a very good decision making midfielder.

14: Darcy Moore (199cm, Oakleigh Chargers): Key position either back or forward who is likely to go to Collingwood as a first round father/son pick.

15: Jordan de Goey (187cm, Oakleigh): Has a rugby background. Strong marking midfielder who can gather possessions quickly.

16: Clem Smith (177cm, Perth): Super quick defender whose attack on the ball belies his small stature. Likes to run with the ball and set up play.

17: Touk Miller (175cm, Calder Cannons): The Vic Metro captain is a highly talented natural sportsman who plays midfield/forward.

18: Brayden Maynard (186cm, Sandringham): Father Peter played for Glenelg. Plays as a mid-size defender who uses it very well.

19: Connor Blakely (187cm, Swan Districts): Has been playing good senior football in the WAFL as a midfielder. His star is rising.

20: Jayden Laverde (189cm, Western Jets): With the tendency towards taller midfielders, Laverde is ideal and he has the versatility to play defence.

[Shaggy]

Petracca has not had a bad career to date

Averages over a goal and has played 90 games

True.

Handy footballer.

But he is not elite.

[skeptic]

The overwhelming consensus at the time amongst fans and media alike was that Petracca was the better prospect and IIRC all but 2 clubs had Petracca at one and a few had him at three.

Had nothing to do with his diabetes. The concern at the time as per write ups and footage was the concern that his dominance may have had to do with his size/strength.

I think it’s pretty silly to suggest that Paddy has demonstrated that he is a better player that Petracca. Not based in reality... certainly not on anything that has been seen.

The reality is that Paddy showed some potential early. Looked like a decent set shot and took a few contested grabs... to even say that he was definitely a player but was cruelled by injury is wishful thinking. Plenty of players have demonstrated more and fallen away.
Some of Tom Lee’s early games forward were decent... Ahmad Saad looked a player after a year. Injury effected Paddy absolutely... regardless, his kicking and marking fell away markedly in year three even when he was stringing games together

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... d381825342

Jon Anderson profiles the Under 18s class of 2014, predicts top 20 draft picks
Jon Anderson, Herald Sun
June 26, 2014 3:35pm

IN an AFL draft rated the most open in a decade, one performance over the coming weeks could determine which way recruiters go at the very top.

ANDO’S POTENTIAL TOP 20

1: Patrick McCartin (194cm, Geelong Falcons): Pace (tick) hands (tick) strength (tick) kicking (tick), McCartin covers the required bases for a key forward.

2: Peter Wright (203cm, Calder Cannons): A ruckman/forward who has always hovered around the top five for the 2014 draft.

3: Sam Durdin (196cm, West Adelaide): Has the advantage of being able to play both ends but has had a poor championship series to date.

4: Christian Petracca (186cm, Eastern Ranges): Rocketing up the charts. Has a genuine X factor either as a bullocking forward or midfielder.

5: Jarrod Pickett (179cm, South Fremantle): Each outing confirms his standing as an indigenous forward/midfielder of serious style.

6: Isaac Heeney (186cm, Sydney Academy): Under the Academy rules, Sydney can draft this hard-running midfielder, but will have to bid for him same as father/son bidding.

7: Angus Brayshaw (187c, Sandringham Dragons): A tallish, strong-bodied midfielder that Melbourne would love to acquire. Very consistent.

8: Tom Lamb (193cm, Dandenong Stingrays): A player capable of extreme highs as either a goalkicking forward or high possession midfielder.

9: Hugh Goddard (195cm, Geelong Falcons): A long-time top 5 pick who has slipped after a mediocre championships to date.

10: Caleb Marchbank (193cm, Murray Bushrangers): Hasn’t done his chances any harm in the championships and is athletic enough to play most positions.

11: Jake Lever (192cm, Calder Cannons): Won’t be seen at the championships due to a knee reconstruction but remains extremely highly thought of as a defender.

12: Lachie Weller (181cm, Gold Coast Academy): A goal kicking midfielder who can influence play via his disposal. Brother of St Kilda’s Mav.

13: Corey Ellis (185cm, Western Jets): Can win his own ball and use it with his left-foot. Regarded as a very good decision making midfielder.

14: Darcy Moore (199cm, Oakleigh Chargers): Key position either back or forward who is likely to go to Collingwood as a first round father/son pick.

15: Jordan de Goey (187cm, Oakleigh): Has a rugby background. Strong marking midfielder who can gather possessions quickly.

16: Clem Smith (177cm, Perth): Super quick defender whose attack on the ball belies his small stature. Likes to run with the ball and set up play.

17: Touk Miller (175cm, Calder Cannons): The Vic Metro captain is a highly talented natural sportsman who plays midfield/forward.

18: Brayden Maynard (186cm, Sandringham): Father Peter played for Glenelg. Plays as a mid-size defender who uses it very well.

19: Connor Blakely (187cm, Swan Districts): Has been playing good senior football in the WAFL as a midfielder. His star is rising.

20: Jayden Laverde (189cm, Western Jets): With the tendency towards taller midfielders, Laverde is ideal and he has the versatility to play defence.

It’s a very detailed analysis from a reputable source no doubt... and in June.

Are you legitimately arguing that you don’t think the majority had Petracca at 1?

[skeptic]

Here’s Knightmare’s phantom draft for that year... does some paid work for this stuff somewhere or another and is a staple on BF
Note that he last edited it in Oct

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ ... t.1060197/

[freely]

I'd forgotten about Heeney.