Paddy to be delisted

[B.M]

Tom Boyd - almost a Norm Smith before he retired after 60 games and 50 goals

Jon Patton - 3 knee recos, played 90 games, 130 goals, 26yo and STILL PLAYING

Tom Scully - 170 games, average 21 disposals, 2016 & 2017 AA Squad, 28yo and STILL PLAYING

And I’ll throw in Jack Watts for good measure
170 games, 160 goals 28yo and STILL PLAYING

So, busts... I don’t really think so.

BTW
I researched the 2001 draft thoroughly as it was my first draft of interest, watched both TAC Cup games and champs games. Most mock drafts had Ball going at number 1.
I had Ball going at 1 to Hawthorn... family connection

I wanted Judd at 2 and thought he’d be a steal at 2
And Hodge at 5 (or Sam Power if he was gone)

Was rapt we got Ball
Think about how he went in 2003-2005 before suggesting he wasn’t a good selection

[Secret Kiel]

pretty definite link between diabetes and concussion damage.

http://gamechangerexpert.com/diabetes-c ... diabetics/

Did you even read that article or check out the website and who wrote it? Or do you even understand anything that is written on that page? It seems to drift all over the place with its subject matter, it just seems very dodgy information prepared by some pseudoscience Astrologer.

Can you keep Googling and let us know if there is any scientific evidence available, and specifically if it was available at the time of recruiting Paddy.

I can't speak to the veracity of the article DS posted but a quick search will lead you to a whole bunch of articles/papers discussing the impact of concussions on the management of diabetes due to the cognitive impairment. The one DS cited is making a different claim to that but I found 10 or so making the same claim about management for diabetics after head trauma.

Much of the simplistic footy discussion seems to conclude with one plus one equals thirty three. Obviously concussion is a collision injury to the brain, however was it known to all at the AFL trade table and those who were eager to call out Paddy's name first, that serious health issues from collision to the head could arise due to Paddy having diabetes. If that can be proven then I think the St Kilda FC and AFL are liable for the situation Paddy finds himself in now. It is the most brutal contact sport in the world. If it was so obvious to the posters on a fan forum then surely it should have been obvious to those with a duty of care within a multi billion dollar industry. If it was so obvious, and the evidence was conclusive at the time of recruitment, then who was taking the risk. I'd say it is the multi billion dollar franchise willing to employ someone to do a job who is clearly not fit for work. It's intriguing Paddy has made the admission he did. The kid was desperate to play, but there were adults more desperate for him to play.

[roskilde]

pretty definite link between diabetes and concussion damage.

http://gamechangerexpert.com/diabetes-c ... diabetics/

Did you even read that article or check out the website and who wrote it? Or do you even understand anything that is written on that page? It seems to drift all over the place with its subject matter, it just seems very dodgy information prepared by some pseudoscience Astrologer.

Can you keep Googling and let us know if there is any scientific evidence available, and specifically if it was available at the time of recruiting Paddy.

I can't speak to the veracity of the article DS posted but a quick search will lead you to a whole bunch of articles/papers discussing the impact of concussions on the management of diabetes due to the cognitive impairment. The one DS cited is making a different claim to that but I found 10 or so making the same claim about management for diabetics after head trauma.

Much of the simplistic footy discussion seems to conclude with one plus one equals thirty three. Obviously concussion is a collision injury to the brain, however was it known to all at the AFL trade table and those who were eager to call out Paddy's name first, that serious health issues from collision to the head could arise due to Paddy having diabetes. If that can be proven then I think the St Kilda FC and AFL are liable for the situation Paddy finds himself in now. It is the most brutal contact sport in the world. If it was so obvious to the posters on a fan forum then surely it should have been obvious to those with a duty of care within a multi billion dollar industry. If it was so obvious, and the evidence was conclusive at the time of recruitment, then who was taking the risk. I'd say it is the multi billion dollar franchise willing to employ someone to do a job who is clearly not fit for work. It's intriguing Paddy has made the admission he did. The kid was desperate to play, but there were adults more desperate for him to play.

I agree with much of what you said but as I pointed out most of the info I found -- of course I'm no expert -- seems to indicate that concussions have a negative impact on management of diabetes rather than diabetes itself exacerbating concussions or causing them. I'm sure the club was well aware of this.

The poor bloke was having trouble driving and being in large crowds. Anyone who is suffering from those type of problems would be informed about how their cognitive impairment could possibly have a negative impact on the work they needed to do to manage their diabetes.

[ausfatcat]

Think about how he went in 2003-2005 before suggesting he wasn’t a good selection

osteitis pubis

Ball Lost his kicking penetration (easily kicked accurately 50 metres) lost his speed. a real missed chanced with that imo, will never forget fottage of him after a game in 2003 or 2004 of him being unable to walk after the game due to this.

Penny young great key position player played with bung knee that just kept deteriorating

Kosi lots of go and potential and talent played with chronic back problems in his second year took a shots to play and struggled afterwards for years

Hamil heart and soul great leader anther deteriorating knee ignored for a long time and played through

Fergus Watts continuously played in vfl with a bad ankle developed ongoing injury


what do they all have in common ? (hint wasn't the physio or medicos because they were all being sacked after one year)

Imagine if just one of those injuries was handled correct during that period? Any of those guys at top fight would have put over the top in 2009 and 2010

[saintsRrising]

Tom Boyd - almost a Norm Smith before he retired after 60 games and 50 goals

Boyd struggled as a player. Yes had a good GF but not as a key forward, but the opposition rucks that day were not good.

If Paddy is a bust, then Boyd certainly is too. One out of the game early due to mental demons and the other due to repeated concussions.

Both remain key forwards who never consistently delivered on the promise they showed in their youth and which had them taken so early in the draft. Both without their issues could have played many more games. Would either ever have become good, or even great players? Who knows? All we know is that neither did.

[Secret Kiel]

pretty definite link between diabetes and concussion damage.

http://gamechangerexpert.com/diabetes-c ... diabetics/

Did you even read that article or check out the website and who wrote it? Or do you even understand anything that is written on that page? It seems to drift all over the place with its subject matter, it just seems very dodgy information prepared by some pseudoscience Astrologer.

Can you keep Googling and let us know if there is any scientific evidence available, and specifically if it was available at the time of recruiting Paddy.

I can't speak to the veracity of the article DS posted but a quick search will lead you to a whole bunch of articles/papers discussing the impact of concussions on the management of diabetes due to the cognitive impairment. The one DS cited is making a different claim to that but I found 10 or so making the same claim about management for diabetics after head trauma.

Much of the simplistic footy discussion seems to conclude with one plus one equals thirty three. Obviously concussion is a collision injury to the brain, however was it known to all at the AFL trade table and those who were eager to call out Paddy's name first, that serious health issues from collision to the head could arise due to Paddy having diabetes. If that can be proven then I think the St Kilda FC and AFL are liable for the situation Paddy finds himself in now. It is the most brutal contact sport in the world. If it was so obvious to the posters on a fan forum then surely it should have been obvious to those with a duty of care within a multi billion dollar industry. If it was so obvious, and the evidence was conclusive at the time of recruitment, then who was taking the risk. I'd say it is the multi billion dollar franchise willing to employ someone to do a job who is clearly not fit for work. It's intriguing Paddy has made the admission he did. The kid was desperate to play, but there were adults more desperate for him to play.

I agree with much of what you said but as I pointed out most of the info I found -- of course I'm no expert -- seems to indicate that concussions have a negative impact on management of diabetes rather than diabetes itself exacerbating concussions or causing them. I'm sure the club was well aware of this.

The poor bloke was having trouble driving and being in large crowds. Anyone who is suffering from those type of problems would be informed about how their cognitive impairment could possibly have a negative impact on the work they needed to do to manage their diabetes.

So the info you have found seems to confirm we shouldn't conclude the club and people who selected Paddy are incompetent for selecting him because they should have somehow known diabetes would result in concussion issues. What we are saying is they are two separate health issues and Paddy's career is over because of collision injuries to his head and not as result in any way to him having diabetes.

[damienc]

I, for one, am of the view that Paddy and our footy club made the right call to delist him.

Sadly, it is almost certainly the end of his footy career. With the number of concussions he's suffered and the symptoms he's experiencing, Paddy must now find a life outside football.

There is no way back from this. Even if he recovers, and everybody hopes that he will be able to live a normal life, he's now forever vulnerable to concussion happening again and it will take very, very little for it to happen again.

Of course, if you set aside the emotion and look at all of this objectively, and I recognise everything is in hindsight, the harsh reality is we wasted a number one draft pick.

Our eagerness to recruit a replacement for Roo clouded the club's judgement. Alarm bells should have rung about Paddy, and the medical issues surrounding him, even if the club couldn't have known of his vulnerability to concussion.

As someone else pointed out, the club didn't do enough homework or simply ignored what was in front of them and considered whatever risk associated with Paddy was a risk worth taking.

The people responsible for Paddy's selection are no longer at the footy club. And that is a very good thing.

I don't think the current crop of coaches and administrators would make the same mistake.

I'm just disappointed it ended the way it has. I'm sure Paddy is as well.

I wish him well for the future.

Paddy has been delisted due to concussion problems, not the first and will certainly not be the last. I'm assuming you are alluding to diabetes when you refer to "medical issues". Is it scientifically proven diabetes makes you vulnerable to concussion? I'll ask it another way, has it been proven Paddy's diabetes caused him to get concussion on a footy field? I'm really interested to know what you know about diabetes and concussion.

You are the one linking diabetes with concussion. Not me.

[damienc]

“No doubt the opinion of McCartin is framed on the excellent pack mark he took in Tasmania against a then rampant Hawthorn then missing his shot on goal when a goal would have won that match for us”- To the Top
Actually he took a better mark than that in that game, in my humble opinion. A high ball , a swirling wind, he took up a position and as several players tried to budge him or get their own position , he held his and took it absolutely rock solid. It was one of the more memorable marks I have seen. I think he kicked the goal after that, not sure,
The posts which suggest we shouldn’t have drafted him are disrespectful and juvenile, I think. The young man has been injured , badly and possibly permanently, in the honest service of the club these posters claim to support . He deserves nothing but our support and loyalty , as per the Club motto. Denigrating his selection in the draft (over which he had no control) is diminishing the sacrifice he has made or which has been imposed on him in St Kilda’s service. He ought to be welcomed unreservedly to any future association in any capacity he chooses to have with the Club, without further grizzling about the supposed “ waste “ of a number one draft pick ( and by the way , there really is no cause for pride in having a number 1 draft pick).

No pride in having a number one draft pick, but an absolute travesty to waste it.

No poster here, that I can see, has been disrespectful of Paddy.

On the contrary.

Nor have they based any opinion on an individual effort in any particular game.

Only you.

Not sure where that one came from in your production line of logic.

Everybody is pretty much supportive of Paddy and his current health struggles.

But in my opinion he was damaged goods quite apart from his concussion issues.

I think his number one selection was based on wishful thinking rather than objectivity.

As I said previously, the people responsible for selecting Paddy are no longer at St Kilda. A very good thing.

Refering to someone as "damaged goods" for having diabetes could be considered disrespectful. You have previously alluded in one of your opinion's earlier in this thread that diabetes makes you vulnerable to concussion. I think diabetes and how you become concussed are two separate issues but I'd be happy to be corrected or learn more about why you think they are linked. I asked this previously but I'm keen to learn if it is scientifically proven that diabetes makes you vulnerable to concussion? or, asked another way, has it been proven Paddy's diabetes caused him to get concussion on a footy field? As I said earlier I'm really interested to know what you know about diabetes and concussion as you seem convinced the people who selected Paddy should have known there is a link between diabetes and concussion.

Please see my earlier post. You are having an argument with yourself.

[B.M]

Boyd is and will always be a premiership player, more than that, he played a prominent role.

[saintsRrising]

Boyd is and will always be a premiership player, more than that, he played a prominent role.

There have been many premiership players who are simply not that good.

Carl Ditterich missed being a premiership player being suspended. Does that make The Ghost any less a player? Does that make Boyd a better player than Carl?

If you are ok at valuing a player highly based mainly on one game then that is your right to do so.

Personally as a hindsight valuation I look at his whole career and would rate him as a disappointing player for where he was taken in the draft. Good players to me play well most of the time.

[Moods]

Boyd is and will always be a premiership player, more than that, he played a prominent role.

There have been many premiership players who are simply not that good.

Carl Ditterich missed being a premiership player being suspended. Does that make The Ghost any less a player? Does that make Boyd a better player than Carl?

If you are ok at valuing a player highly based mainly on one game then that is your right to do so.

Personally as a hindsight valuation I look at his whole career and would rate him as a disappointing player for where he was taken in the draft. Good players to me play well most of the time.

Absolutely Boyd was a bust. Never came close to fulfilling his talent. Played a very good GF which is obviously very valuable - but what some forget is that he spent most of that year in the reserves. He simply wasn't naturally aggressive enough to play AFL as a big key position player consistently. I suspect that he became aware of that which exacerbated any mental health issues he was experiencing. Everyone wanted him so badly to be good. He signed a HUGE long term contract and the realisation was, he simply wasn't that good. Sounds like a lovely guy who had the decency to hand back a large portion of his contract when he quit.

[Moods]

Think about how he went in 2003-2005 before suggesting he wasn’t a good selection

osteitis pubis

Ball Lost his kicking penetration (easily kicked accurately 50 metres) lost his speed. a real missed chanced with that imo, will never forget fottage of him after a game in 2003 or 2004 of him being unable to walk after the game due to this.

Penny young great key position player played with bung knee that just kept deteriorating

Kosi lots of go and potential and talent played with chronic back problems in his second year took a shots to play and struggled afterwards for years

Hamil heart and soul great leader anther deteriorating knee ignored for a long time and played through

Fergus Watts continuously played in vfl with a bad ankle developed ongoing injury


what do they all have in common ? (hint wasn't the physio or medicos because they were all being sacked after one year)

Imagine if just one of those injuries was handled correct during that period? Any of those guys at top fight would have put over the top in 2009 and 2010

Ball could have been an absolute star at our club if OP didn't hit at the start of 05. I blame GT to a partial degree for this. He made him captain at such a young age. It was obvious that he needed to rest at the start of the year (05) and after a few games he was shot. So much pressure placed on a young kid.

Having said that there's always certain risks when drafting. Judd's shoulders could have been a real issue, instead they were a non issue. I think that even with Ball playing his best footy and Judd playing his best footy, you'd pick Judd every day of the week. Judd only came back to the field to being in the best 20 players in the game rather than the stand out player in the game, once he got OP himself in 07.

[Scollop]

The pinnacle of the game is to win a flag. You need big game players to stand up on the most important day of the year for your team and Tom delivered.

I understand that on balance he did not fulfil his full potential, but if you want to ignore the premiership medal and his contribution on that day, you'd be in the minority Imo.

I don't think any Doggies fans would be labelling Tom Boyd as a bust of a number 1 pick

[Saintmatt]

Boyd is and will always be a premiership player, more than that, he played a prominent role.

There have been many premiership players who are simply not that good.

Carl Ditterich missed being a premiership player being suspended. Does that make The Ghost any less a player? Does that make Boyd a better player than Carl?

If you are ok at valuing a player highly based mainly on one game then that is your right to do so.

Personally as a hindsight valuation I look at his whole career and would rate him as a disappointing player for where he was taken in the draft. Good players to me play well most of the time.

Absolutely Boyd was a bust. Never came close to fulfilling his talent. Played a very good GF which is obviously very valuable - but what some forget is that he spent most of that year in the reserves. He simply wasn't naturally aggressive enough to play AFL as a big key position player consistently. I suspect that he became aware of that which exacerbated any mental health issues he was experiencing. Everyone wanted him so badly to be good. He signed a HUGE long term contract and the realisation was, he simply wasn't that good. Sounds like a lovely guy who had the decency to hand back a large portion of his contract when he quit.

Sheesh - I'd be happy to have Paddy retired at 23 as a St Kilda Premiership player and with only his winners' medallion and Lucy B to keep him warm at night. FMD - you underplay Tom Boyd's influence when it counted a lot. He actually played a fantastic Prelim against GWS (after the GWS flogs taunted him in the 1st q about being outmarked). You're also not taking into account what it cost to get him. Ryan Griffin was on the slide and hugely disenchanted with the club and so, with pick 6 - they got Boyd. Griffen hardly lit it up at GWS so, in all reality - Boyd for pick 6 was a fair deal.

[ace]

Paddy will be remembered as the worst outcome for a No 1 pick this century.
Not his fault.
St Kilda's recruitment department mostly to blame.

[Secret Kiel]

I, for one, am of the view that Paddy and our footy club made the right call to delist him.

Sadly, it is almost certainly the end of his footy career. With the number of concussions he's suffered and the symptoms he's experiencing, Paddy must now find a life outside football.

There is no way back from this. Even if he recovers, and everybody hopes that he will be able to live a normal life, he's now forever vulnerable to concussion happening again and it will take very, very little for it to happen again.

Of course, if you set aside the emotion and look at all of this objectively, and I recognise everything is in hindsight, the harsh reality is we wasted a number one draft pick.

Our eagerness to recruit a replacement for Roo clouded the club's judgement. Alarm bells should have rung about Paddy, and the medical issues surrounding him, even if the club couldn't have known of his vulnerability to concussion.

As someone else pointed out, the club didn't do enough homework or simply ignored what was in front of them and considered whatever risk associated with Paddy was a risk worth taking.

The people responsible for Paddy's selection are no longer at the footy club. And that is a very good thing.

I don't think the current crop of coaches and administrators would make the same mistake.

I'm just disappointed it ended the way it has. I'm sure Paddy is as well.

I wish him well for the future.

Paddy has been delisted due to concussion problems, not the first and will certainly not be the last. I'm assuming you are alluding to diabetes when you refer to "medical issues". Is it scientifically proven diabetes makes you vulnerable to concussion? I'll ask it another way, has it been proven Paddy's diabetes caused him to get concussion on a footy field? I'm really interested to know what you know about diabetes and concussion.

You are the one linking diabetes with concussion. Not me.

so when you say:
the clubs judgement was clouded,
alarm bells should have rung about "medical issues",
the club didn't do enough homework or simply ignored what was in front of them,
and considered he was a risk worth taking,
and that it's a good thing the people responsible for Paddy's selection are no longer at the club,
is damaged goods,

so when you say all these things you're not linking diabetes with concussion even though the reason Paddy has been delisted is concussion but all of your comments seem to suggest that the club should have somehow known he was going to be a bust...Confusing, btw I think it's not nice to call someone damaged goods in Paddy's situation.

[Scollop]

Let it go Cairnsman

[B.M]

We can actually admit the mistake now... he’s off the list.

It’s done, history!

Will we learn from it?

[saintsRrising]

Sheesh - I'd be happy to have Paddy retired at 23 as a St Kilda Premiership player and with only his winners' medallion and Lucy B to keep him warm at night.

Well I would too, but I believe the discussion was more along the lines of what pick would you in hindsight have been happy to have drafted him at.

At No 1 I believe he is a bust.

[freely]

We can actually admit the mistake now... he’s off the list.

It’s done, history!

Will we learn from it?

course not!

[saintsRrising]

We can actually admit the mistake now... he’s off the list.

It’s done, history!

Will we learn from it?

I think that depends on what you mean by a mistake. Any pick is a judgement call and may or may not work out. If it is just that and the club chose a player whose track record deserved him being taken where he was, that then I am ok with club's choice. Recruiting is not an exact science and is not 100% accurate. Injuries are unpredictable and I do not believe there was any indication that Paddy would have concussion issues.

While I said at the time to pick Petracca (as from memory about 2 out of 3 on this forum did) I think that labelling it a huge mistake is not right as virtually everyone had Paddy at Pick 1 or 2 and plenty went either way. So picking Paddy at 1 was not unreasonable.

So realistically labelling it as a mistake where they should have done something different is a bit rich and most likely an unfair call.

My only gripe is if they actually believed that Petracca was better and went for Paddy instead due to worrying about future scarcity of KPF's . If so that was a mistake.


Now picks like Howard. That was an abject failure of process, and a failure of judgement. He should never have been picked where he was.


To me complaining about picking Paddy is like complaining about recruiting Penny (who retired early due to a bad knee). We didn't know Penny's knees would be a problem, and we did not know concussion would be a problem for Paddy. That they both retired early is massively unfortunate, but that does not mean that the actual decision itself to gain either can be labelled a mistake.

[saintspremiers]

We can actually admit the mistake now... he’s off the list.

It’s done, history!

Will we learn from it?

Of course we will.

Because “we” are a different “we” now from then.

Removing McCartin (Paddy now refers to Ryder), Newnes & Acres in one hit is like having your first crap in three days (something no man should ever have to endure!) - massive load off your shoulders!

[B.M]

A bust is a guy that never achieved anything

Tom Boyd was IMO best on ground in a grand final.

He was not a success as a #1

But not a bust.

[B.M]

Penny looked good, performed well and was unlucky with injury.

Paddy also showed some positive signs, and was probably unlucky with injury too.

But to me, he had glaring athletic limitations which means we should not have drafted a player with 60+ skin folds with #1.
Take him in the first round somewhere, ok. But to use #1 on him was imo a poor call by trout.
Unfortunately he could not prove doubters wrong due to injury.

[Secret Kiel]

We can actually admit the mistake now... he’s off the list.

It’s done, history!

Will we learn from it?

The guy's career ended due to concussion injuries, it's one of the most brutal contact sports in the world and the only contact sport in the world where you can expect contact from a full 360 degrees. What is there to learn from this assuming you are critical of the club for selecting him but somehow the club should have known he was going to leave the game early because of concussion. Sheez man how could anyone have predicted that. It's laughable that you think it was a predictable outcome.