Let's Be Honest

[skeptic]

Still a bit uneasy about things. I'm unsure about the culture, strategy and philosophy of our list, playing style and above all, our club.

Until we solve the bigger issues that plague the club and where it is headed in the next 10-20 years, I think most of these changes are fairly cosmetic.

I expect the decision to recruit the way we have will make us more competitive in 2020 and a finals' appearance is a possibility.

I rank us about 7th-11th. Our success won't be determined by the new players we've recruited, but by how hard we train, how focused we are and selfless we are willing to be.

Interesting post - out of interest what do you identify as the bigger issues?

[Ghost Like]

Yes Firey, can't wait for 2020, much more interested than I was in 2019. That said, I've enjoyed the trade period with my only negative being our use of draft picks as credit (again!).

I guess that is a sign that we have too many players on our current list, not rated or in demand by other clubs. Hoping 2020 changes that perception.

[Devilhead]

I was looking forward to 2020 because we would be getting players back with the addition of King and Bytel, plus an early draft pick.

Thought we might lose Steven but never thought for one moment that Bruce and Acres would be shown the door.

Losing them will only be partly offset by the guys recruited, IMHO.

Team unity will have taken a blow.

Is that the team unity that got us to 14th & 15th the last 2 years?

Seems to me that the club/players are quite excited about the new signings

[Wayne42]

I was looking forward to 2020 because we would be getting players back with the addition of King and Bytel, plus an early draft pick.

Thought we might lose Steven but never thought for one moment that Bruce and Acres would be shown the door.

Losing them will only be partly offset by the guys recruited, IMHO.

Team unity will have taken a blow.

Bruce was not shown the door. The Dogs offered him a 4 year contract and we weren't willing to match it. Now with the benefit of hindsight he was the player we could most afford to lose.

A 4 year deal is a very, very good deal for Bruce, he wasn't going to that offer from anyone else (Dogs were desperate), so why wouldn't he take it and glad we didn't match it because the argument would be we paid way overs for a player who could likely be replaced with King, maybe even 2 Kings.

He was told at an exist meeting that the Saints wouldn't be extending his 2020 contract.

Haven't Lethlean and Galahger since stated he went into his exit meeting knowing Josh had a 4 year deal on the table from the Dogs? And haven't both Lethlean and Galahger both said since he was also told he was a required player but if they wouldn't stand in his way if he wanted to take the 4 year deal because the club wouldn't match it?

There seems to be come confusion around who said what before, during and after the exit meeting. Anyone got any links to media that confirms Bruce was told by club officials during his exit meeting that his contract wasn't being extended beyond 2019?

I put a link to the SEN podcast that had Josh Bruce explain the whole situation, in a thread at the end of trade week.

No idea now which thread that was.

[Jacks Back]

I'm looking forward to the 2020 vision.

[fugazi]

Also, when you look at the free agents available next year, we may be a much more attractive destination by the end of 2020.
A Brad Crouch or Jeremy Cameron may be gettable.

[saintbob]

Heaps more excited about a full Ratten pre-season and new game plan.
I don't expect the new team dynamics to click straight away but I do feel it won't take long to see something special with experienced players comming in.

[samuraisaint]

We won't improve until we can beat sides like the two Adelaide teams and the Swans - you can also add Geelong and North Melbourne to that list.

[Scollop]

Still a bit uneasy about things. I'm unsure about the culture, strategy and philosophy of our list, playing style and above all, our club.

Until we solve the bigger issues that plague the club and where it is headed in the next 10-20 years, I think most of these changes are fairly cosmetic.

I expect the decision to recruit the way we have will make us more competitive in 2020 and a finals' appearance is a possibility.

I rank us about 7th-11th. Our success won't be determined by the new players we've recruited, but by how hard we train, how focused we are and selfless we are willing to be.

I agree totally with your last paragraph

I feel uneasy too but they say that the nerves and doubts we experience are identical to our feelings of excitement.

As far as the direction of the club is concerned, I reckon the most crucial thing is that we strive to improve our position on the ladder.

I think Ratts is an upgrade and I think we will improve with the trades we've made and the progression from our youngsters. Also happy with the retention of Slater and the inclusion of Roughead. Obviously we need luck and good management to ensure some of the long term injured come good

Winning on field will provide the momentum for everything; more confidence for some of our youth; more confidence in the whole playing group; more confidence in the coach and his assistants; more confidence in the strategies of football department and the ability to attract A graders in 2021 and beyond; more sponsors; more memberships; And more money flowing in which will drive more support for the football department to sustain more on field success

[Furphy]

It's the beginning of a 'five year plan'

[saintsRrising]

...are you looking forward to 2020 more than what you were towards 2019 ?

Yes.

Like many for a while I have thought that midfield was our biggest problem.

Towards 2019/

So wind the clock back 12 months, while we had signed Hannas I for one was very concerned about his body.
With Hickey gone and not being a fan of Longer due to his around the ground work and with Pierce also looking to be slow around the ground I was not confident of our midfield going in 2019.

As the pre-season went on and issues emerged I became even more negative in my aspirations.

I also knew in advance that Bytel and King our first two picks would be pretty much non-starters for 2019. So l knew that our early picks would not help us.

Towards 2019/

Midfield

With two genuine rucks in Marshall (and heading into 2019 we did not know that he would come on as a No1 ruck, let alone to come on as a superb ruck) and Paddy now recruited our Ruck Division is a stellar leap up on at this stage last year.

With the mids I now, despite his foot injury, think that they have gotten on top of his soft-tissue injuries, which 12 months ago I was not.

So in addition to our rucks, I see our midfield will be boosted with:
- Hannas, Hill and Jones . That is a lot more pace and run and with Hill and Hannas class. With Jones vigour!
- Clark is now ready to have an impact
- Bytel is now ready to play and should have some impact, though yes early days yet. But bodywise is a second year player.

On the downside Steven is a huge loss (remember we are talking from 12 months ago, rather than what the reality of the season was).

Acres is also gone, but apart from a good game hear an there he he was only a so-so mid in what he delivered. So 12 months ago there was still only hope that he would get better.

So overall this is the best midfield group we have had for many a year. Also with the pace and run of Hill, Jones and Hannas that should mean that we can get good numbers at the contest more often and this too should assist a lot.

The Rest

Forwards. Well while Bruce may not have been the best CHF ever, I personally rate him as an important hardworking player for us. An aerobic beast that did a lot of run and whose kicking at goal is actually better than the myth it was poor (probably based on some infamous ones missed from only a few metres out).

Butler may offer an upgrade if he can recover his 2017 form. Though remember that part of the drop-off may have been due to oppositions coaches having worked out his strengths and weaknesses. I do not see him as a lock at all. I hope that he plays well enough to secure his place. Key will be improving his defensive side and ability to stay in the game a little more which is always hard in the small forward role.

So with no Bruce I rate our forward line weaker, and moreseo in 2020 as King is both unknown and very young for a forward of his size and build. Whatever King becomes in a few years, it is likely to be a lot better than what he will be able to deliver in 2020 when he will lack experience and a well-developed body and tank.

Backline. Well Robbo we were nervous about, and we are still are. If he plays that adds real quality to our backline.

Howard is a major plus and a good upgrade on the hardworking Brown. Brown is just a stopper. Howard stops as well, but also has an offensive side and a lot more pace and offers the ability to be swung forward if required.

Clark and Coffield in late 2019 showed they can both play well in defence. Though I expect Clark to have more midfield time in 2020.

Wilkie was a great find, and as rookie in 2019 hopes for him would have been minimal.

With Howard and Wilkie in, I would rate our backs entering 2020 as better that enter 2019.

Overall

I am a lot more positive about entering 2020 compared to entering 2019.

Mainly due to the midfield including rucks, but also with King and Bytel we effectively have two extra recruits.

Bruce is a loss. But we have many more pluses.

[Moods]

...are you looking forward to 2020 more than what you were towards 2019 ?

Yes.

Like many for a while I have thought that midfield was our biggest problem.

Towards 2019/

So wind the clock back 12 months, while we had signed Hannas I for one was very concerned about his body.
With Hickey gone and not being a fan of Longer due to his around the ground work and with Pierce also looking to be slow around the ground I was not confident of our midfield going in 2019.

As the pre-season went on and issues emerged I became even more negative in my aspirations.

I also knew in advance that Bytel and King our first two picks would be pretty much non-starters for 2019. So l knew that our early picks would not help us.

Towards 2019/

Midfield

With two genuine rucks in Marshall (and heading into 2019 we did not know that he would come on as a No1 ruck, let alone to come on as a superb ruck) and Paddy now recruited our Ruck Division is a stellar leap up on at this stage last year.

With the mids I now, despite his foot injury, think that they have gotten on top of his soft-tissue injuries, which 12 months ago I was not.

So in addition to our rucks, I see our midfield will be boosted with:
- Hannas, Hill and Jones . That is a lot more pace and run and with Hill and Hannas class. With Jones vigour!
- Clark is now ready to have an impact
- Bytel is now ready to play and should have some impact, though yes early days yet. But bodywise is a second year player.

On the downside Steven is a huge loss (remember we are talking from 12 months ago, rather than what the reality of the season was).

Acres is also gone, but apart from a good game hear an there he he was only a so-so mid in what he delivered. So 12 months ago there was still only hope that he would get better.

So overall this is the best midfield group we have had for many a year. Also with the pace and run of Hill, Jones and Hannas that should mean that we can get good numbers at the contest more often and this too should assist a lot.

The Rest

Forwards. Well while Bruce may not have been the best CHF ever, I personally rate him as an important hardworking player for us. An aerobic beast that did a lot of run and whose kicking at goal is actually better than the myth it was poor (probably based on some infamous ones missed from only a few metres out).

Butler may offer an upgrade if he can recover his 2017 form. Though remember that part of the drop-off may have been due to oppositions coaches having worked out his strengths and weaknesses. I do not see him as a lock at all. I hope that he plays well enough to secure his place. Key will be improving his defensive side and ability to stay in the game a little more which is always hard in the small forward role.

So with no Bruce I rate our forward line weaker, and moreseo in 2020 as King is both unknown and very young for a forward of his size and build. Whatever King becomes in a few years, it is likely to be a lot better than what he will be able to deliver in 2020 when he will lack experience and a well-developed body and tank.

Backline. Well Robbo we were nervous about, and we are still are. If he plays that adds real quality to our backline.

Howard is a major plus and a good upgrade on the hardworking Brown. Brown is just a stopper. Howard stops as well, but also has an offensive side and a lot more pace and offers the ability to be swung forward if required.

Clark and Coffield in late 2019 showed they can both play well in defence. Though I expect Clark to have more midfield time in 2020.

Wilkie was a great find, and as rookie in 2019 hopes for him would have been minimal.

With Howard and Wilkie in, I would rate our backs entering 2020 as better that enter 2019.

Overall

I am a lot more positive about entering 2020 compared to entering 2019.

Mainly due to the midfield including rucks, but also with King and Bytel we effectively have two extra recruits.

Bruce is a loss. But we have many more pluses.

One of the biggest improvements to the team should come from one bloke who is already on our list. Carlisle!

I really want to cut him some slack and say he was returning from back surgery which explained his complete lack of mobility which seemed to transfer to his complete lack of interest in the back end of the year.

If we can get this guy playing anything like what we believe he's capable of, with Howard and Battle as support, our backline is better than adequate with Jones off half back, possibly Roberton and a few others down there (wilkie as well) Pre-season is the key. We now have heaps of depth in our backline. Our mids have been strengthened I believe, but I'm still worried about our fwd line. King is young and raw and we need to temper expectations. Members is a terrific 3rd tall but Ryder has never played great in the fwd line. Hopefully Butler adds an improvement in the defensive pressure but I still don't reckon we will be able to kick enough goals. Hopefully an improved game plan and better skills will assist in this area.

My personal opinion is that the move back to Moorabbin with decent facilities in a far more desirable location has been the biggest decision in the last 10 years. No way anyone wants to come and train at Seaford. Whilst I find that ridiculous it appeared to be the reality

[saintsRrising]

One of the biggest improvements to the team should come from one bloke who is already on our list. Carlisle!

Not that I disagree, but in the context of the OP, 12 months ago Carlisle was meant to be good and so comparing then to now I have Carlisle the same.

His back worsened over the pre-season and eventually late in the piece he was put in for surgery.

In the context of the 2019 that occurred (rather than was about to occur) then he like Steven was not a good contributor. Along with our massive injury run.

[Secret Kiel]

Agree about Carlisle, if he comes good our options open up considerably but I think there is another bloke already on our list that could also bring another big improvement to our fortunes in 2020, Sinclair. He's yet to sort out his inconsistency issues but he now has the opportunity to go the next level with the assistance of some added class around him in 2020. He has extremely fertile ground now to put his head down and work really hard in the pre season and hit the ground running at round 1. He can be that guy in the midfield that can get off the chain and add that extra depth player to our midfield that will desperately be needed as it is still the weakness in our list. Sinclair should be looking to the likes of the midfielders at the Lions who improved with Neale in the team as their collective improvement was largely the reason for the Lions sky rocket up the ladder.

[outside66]

If Battle, Wilkie, Roberton, and Howard are all playing then a fit Carlisle would be an excellent replacement for Bruce. When fully fit, Carlisle is a much better player than Bruce so perhaps our forward's aren't in such bad shape after all?

[Nick_BlueNRG]

Roberton and McCartin should be forced into retirement. They are placing their life in jeopardy if they paly AFL again.
I'm hoping wiser heads will prevail but knowing St Kilda that won't happen.

Maybe we do have some wise heads down at Moorabbin. One down and one to go.

[groupie1]

If Battle, Wilkie, Roberton, and Howard are all playing then a fit Carlisle would be an excellent replacement for Bruce. When fully fit, Carlisle is a much better player than Bruce so perhaps our forward's aren't in such bad shape after all?

I think the plan is to have Marshall/Ryder replace Bruce and protect King. The aim of the forward line reshuffle MUST be protect King and get Members on the 3rd defender, not the second. Those writing off Ryder's forward craft in the past few years obviously haven't watched him play.

N Reiwoldt had a great second year, after not playing the first... largely due to Gehrig and Hamill taking heat off of him. Let's hope the same of M King.

[sunsaint]

A Brad Crouch or Jeremy Cameron may be gettable.

either of those players would be good additions
but the thought of King and Cameron in the same forward line would be something special

[repta]

Stevens is a big loss. Yes didnt do much this year, but was our best player (before MH issues)
Acres frustrated the hell out of me. He had that unique ability to hit an opposition player on the chest .. time and time again.
Will miss Bruces "Mark of the Year" try each week. Spent too much time trying to look good rather than just getting on with it. However Max King (or Battle) will have to step up to ensure the saints straighten up.

[B.M]

Given the same amount of injuries to key players for large chunks, I can see a similar, if not lower ladder position. Given a good run with injuries, almost a finals team

[desertsaint]

comparing with 2018 is setting a pretty low bar. can't think of another season where the only anticipation was when the coach would get booted.

[DJ Higgins]

I think we will play better next year but we still have work to do.
King will not be that good for a while. Not being negative but a key forward who is coming back from an injury with no AFL experience. Cut him some slack.and with no Bruce who will get their best defender, members? He will struggle now. So I am concerned where the goals will come from. Battle should play forward now but will also need time. Lots of small forwards so some should have cemented their spots by the bye. And some need to lift. Parker long Kent buttler can't play you all

Our mids have been weakened by Steven leaving but improved with hill and maybe jones assuming we don't play him as a hbf. Great to see some speed again. Acres and Newnes are no real loss and dan hanneberry will play more and Clarke can hopefully step up again as no real second year blues from him. And bytel could be anything so hopefully he makes an appearance towards the end of the season.

Our backs I like for another year. Jake Carlisle came back after back surgery and played ok so hopefully a injury free run gets him back to his best.
Brown back again is awesome and let's hope Dougal lives up to the hype. Roberton is a long shot unfortunately but so many HBF but none great. Hopefully one steps up

[skeptic]

One thing I’m not looking forward to...

If we’re not instantly great ppl will bag Ratten and lament the decision to move Richo on as being an overreaction or the fault of the list.

Then if Melbourne return to their 2018 form it will be because of Richo too.

Will be a long year of pro-Richo propaganda

[shanegrambeau]

Buckenara saying that 80% of our list is 'C' grade this week and between 22-28 reminded me of Lloyd saying essentially the same thing this time two years ago.

I had an optimism about 2019 that many of us seemed to have on this board, that things would improve and they seemed to....for about two weeks. By Shanghai we were already Shanghaied.

[B.M]

It’s been a long 3 years of Richo propaganda