Identity, Leadership, Teamwork - all challenges

[carn_sainter]

Just a thought that I can't remember a playing group as disjointed as what we have at the moment. The starting 22 will be almost one third new players next season; our two highest paid players - Hanneberry and Hill - have played a total of 6 games for the club; we lack a core of players, let alone a core of players that have played significant amounts of footy together.

You look at the tigers and their sense of cohesion as a unit - we are nowhere near that at all.

Off field, we have a brand new coach who is, good selection or not, a total mercenary. The admin, whether doing well or not, are also new and not deeply invested in the St.Kilda footy club half as much as they are in their own careers.

I just don't see any identity to the club at the moment. We are at present like an NBA franchise.

I question, only because it could go either way, that Ratten will drive the standards necessary to bring such a motley crew together. And I seriously question where sufficient on-field leadership in such a context comes from. I am not a basher of Geary or Ross. Both are, to me, unquestionable starting 18 players. But they don't have the leadership sufficient for such a context.

Who stands up? With so much change in two years I feel like the playing list would need stronger roots than it has for it all to work.

Big challenges. More important than any game plan, strategy, tactic or anything like that. How do we make a successful unit of all this?

[Secret Kiel]

Absolutely you make a valid point about cohesion being an important ingredient to success but I think it's an overreaction to suggest the list changes we'll make this off season can't bond with the club and players.

[saintspremiers]

We were going nowhere in a hurry so all this change is brilliant.

Hopefully cloggers like Newnes, Rice, White, McCartin, McKenzie etc will be delisted and maybe Phillips also.

Our list was garbage and it showed.

[CURLY]

Ratten has already been there 12 months and in the AFL system for over twenty years. We have bought in 5 new players every club is forced to basically do the same whether they come in to any play seniors is up to them.

[Ajantis]

I can see your point, but lets give them a chance at least.
Seriously st.kilda has been a cursed club since the day i was a supporter and we need to see some changes at some stage and not produce these negative inputs.
I hope st.kilda increase there membership with all these changes and become a really strong club, because its never happenned in my lifetime.

Cheers

[thefatdork]

I can see your point, but lets give them a chance at least.
Seriously st.kilda has been a cursed club since the day i was a supporter and we need to see some changes at some stage and not produce these negative inputs.
I hope st.kilda increase there membership with all these changes and become a really strong club, because its never happenned in my lifetime.

Cheers

So you’re the reason for all our bad luck!!
Go Saints!
TFD

[scallopsroe]

We were going nowhere in a hurry so all this change is brilliant.

Hopefully cloggers like Newnes, Rice, White, McCartin, McKenzie etc will be delisted and maybe Phillips also.

Our list was garbage and it showed.

Agree 100%. The list needed a shake up and there is still room for improvement. We were walking in quick sand under Richo, for the first time in years I see a ray of hope and optimism. Go Saints!

[samoht]

Cohesion comes when you have a best 22 that is significantly better than your fringe players - that ends up playing regularly together.
We probably have about 6-10 players who you can classify as regulars - these are our B or C graders with some skills.

We only have ourselves to blame ---
Over the years, we've kept recruiting multiple C graders or D graders who specialise in one position - half back flankers or small forward pocket types, inside midfielders or ruckmen - and there are only 4 or 5 positions there to fill - this doesn't make for a settled and cohesive lineup.

[damienc]

I can see your point, but lets give them a chance at least.
Seriously st.kilda has been a cursed club since the day i was a supporter and we need to see some changes at some stage and not produce these negative inputs.
I hope st.kilda increase there membership with all these changes and become a really strong club, because its never happenned in my lifetime.

Cheers

So you’re the reason for all our bad luck!!
Go Saints!
TFD

Ha ha. Hilarious

[damienc]

Cohesion comes when you have a best 22 that is significantly better than your fringe players - that ends up playing regularly together.
We probably have about 6-10 players who you can classify as regulars - these are our B or C graders with some skills.

We only have ourselves to blame ---
Over the years, we've kept recruiting multiple C graders or D graders who specialise in one position - half back flankers or small forward pocket types, inside midfielders or ruckmen - and there are only 4 or 5 positions there to fill - this doesn't make for a settled lineup.

Yes but we got it right with this trade period.

[samoht]

Cohesion comes when you have a best 22 that is significantly better than your fringe players - that ends up playing regularly together.
We probably have about 6-10 players who you can classify as regulars - these are our B or C graders with some skills.

We only have ourselves to blame ---
Over the years, we've kept recruiting multiple C graders or D graders who specialise in one position - half back flankers or small forward pocket types, inside midfielders or ruckmen - and there are only 4 or 5 positions there to fill - this doesn't make for a settled lineup.

Yes but we got it right with this trade period.

Maybe - but, 20 wrongs don't make a right.

[damienc]

We were going nowhere in a hurry so all this change is brilliant.

Hopefully cloggers like Newnes, Rice, White, McCartin, McKenzie etc will be delisted and maybe Phillips also.

Our list was garbage and it showed.

Agree with most of what you say. Not sure I would lump White, who was never given a chance by Richo, or Phillips as list cloggers.

[damienc]

Cohesion comes when you have a best 22 that is significantly better than your fringe players - that ends up playing regularly together.
We probably have about 6-10 players who you can classify as regulars - these are our B or C graders with some skills.

We only have ourselves to blame ---
Over the years, we've kept recruiting multiple C graders or D graders who specialise in one position - half back flankers or small forward pocket types, inside midfielders or ruckmen - and there are only 4 or 5 positions there to fill - this doesn't make for a settled lineup.

Yes but we got it right with this trade period.

Maybe - but, 20 wrongs don't make a right.

I guess it is a matter of how you see things. Glass half full or half empty.

[samoht]

Cohesion comes when you have a best 22 that is significantly better than your fringe players - that ends up playing regularly together.
We probably have about 6-10 players who you can classify as regulars - these are our B or C graders with some skills.

We only have ourselves to blame ---
Over the years, we've kept recruiting multiple C graders or D graders who specialise in one position - half back flankers or small forward pocket types, inside midfielders or ruckmen - and there are only 4 or 5 positions there to fill - this doesn't make for a settled lineup.

Yes but we got it right with this trade period.

Maybe - but, 20 wrongs don't make a right.

I guess it is a matter of how you see things. Glass half full or half empty.

We kept filling that glass with fringe players over the years - the so called "list cloggers".
We need prune juice in there now - to unclog things.

[Secret Kiel]

Cohesion comes when you have a best 22 that is significantly better than your fringe players - that ends up playing regularly together.
We probably have about 6-10 players who you can classify as regulars - these are our B or C graders with some skills.

We only have ourselves to blame ---
Over the years, we've kept recruiting multiple C graders or D graders who specialise in one position - half back flankers or small forward pocket types, inside midfielders or ruckmen - and there are only 4 or 5 positions there to fill - this doesn't make for a settled lineup.

Cohesion comes from the sum of all parts, good admin, good coaching, good list, good depth, good training, good structure, good game plan and last but not least of all, luck with injuries, then probably the final ingredient is time. If you get all the main parts in place you have a little luck with injury then you might be afforded time together on the training track and playing field for long periods of TIME to form cohesion.

Ironically these C and D graders you speak of are hard to find on our list at the moment so maybe you are referring to another clubs list.

[samoht]

Cohesion comes from the sum of all parts, good admin, good coaching, good list, good depth, good training, good structure, good game plan and last but not least of all, luck with injuries, then probably the final ingredient is time. If you get all the main parts in place you have a little luck with injury then you might be afforded time together on the training track and playing field for long periods of TIME to form cohesion.

Ironically these C and D graders you speak of are hard to find on our list at the moment so maybe you are referring to another clubs list.

I agree with you that cohesion comes from all those things, the sum of all the parts that you mention - but the proof of ther pudding and manifestation of whether you're getting all those areas and the sum of those parts right is your recruiting.

Who did you bring into the list and what difference are they going to make - are you improving your list or just doubling up, quadrupling up on the same types - multiple fringe players vying for the same position who'd struggle to get a game at other clubs?

[takeaway]

We were going nowhere in a hurry so all this change is brilliant.

Hopefully cloggers like Newnes, Rice, White, McCartin, McKenzie etc will be delisted and maybe Phillips also.

Our list was garbage and it showed.

9 wins with one third of the list missing a lot of the year is not a garbage list. Our list has holes, some of which hopefully were filled with the 5 ins.
We now only need one thing - team confidence, (and a decent year injury wise), to really push for the top 8.

[takeaway]

Cohesion comes from the sum of all parts, good admin, good coaching, good list, good depth, good training, good structure, good game plan and last but not least of all, luck with injuries, then probably the final ingredient is time. If you get all the main parts in place you have a little luck with injury then you might be afforded time together on the training track and playing field for long periods of TIME to form cohesion.

Ironically these C and D graders you speak of are hard to find on our list at the moment so maybe you are referring to another clubs list.

I agree with you that cohesion comes from all those things, the sum of all the parts that you mention - but the proof of ther pudding and manifestation of whether you're getting all those areas and the sum of those parts right is your recruiting.

Who did you bring into the list and what difference are they going to make - are you improving your list or just doubling up, quadrupling up on the same types and fringe players?

Off field stability and know how, quality coaching and development come before recruiting.

[st.byron]

Off field, we have a brand new coach who is, good selection or not, a total mercenary. The admin, whether doing well or not, are also new and not deeply invested in the St.Kilda footy club half as much as they are in their own careers.

I think pretty much everyone involved in the AFL nowadays could be classified as mercenary to some extent. Ratten is no different to all the others who have had a playing career with one club and gone on to coaching, admin or other roles in the industry. If Ratts is a mercenary so are Harves, Lenny and Roo.

[Secret Kiel]

Cohesion comes from the sum of all parts, good admin, good coaching, good list, good depth, good training, good structure, good game plan and last but not least of all, luck with injuries, then probably the final ingredient is time. If you get all the main parts in place you have a little luck with injury then you might be afforded time together on the training track and playing field for long periods of TIME to form cohesion.

Ironically these C and D graders you speak of are hard to find on our list at the moment so maybe you are referring to another clubs list.

I agree with you that cohesion comes from all those things, the sum of all the parts that you mention - but the proof of ther pudding and manifestation of whether you're getting all those areas and the sum of those parts right is your recruiting.

Who did you bring into the list and what difference are they going to make - are you improving your list or just doubling up, quadrupling up on the same types - multiple fringe players vying for the same position who'd struggle to get a game at other clubs?

Yep so have a play with your magnets today and see how many of your so-called C and D graders are fighting for spots on the list in 2020 and beyond. Building a list through the draft takes time, this build started in 2014 and there is now good signs the hard work since is capable of reaching and sustaining finals. This list now has many good parts to it including speed and versatility as well as some much discussed A grade talent and I suspect we will push one or two more of our home grown onto the A grade list in 2020 and beyond. It very clear our list is improving and it's clear we are now a destination club and part of the reason for that is ironically where we are at our stage of development, i.e. we are not at the start of the major rebuild like we were in 2014. If we can improve on our 9 wins this year then who knows, we might even have more A graders wanting to jump onboard, isn't that how a slow burn works (aka a successful rebuild through the draft...and trading). The operative word in that last sentence being "successful".

[samoht]

[quote="Secret Kiel"

Yep so have a play with your magnets today and see how many of your so-called C and D graders are fighting for spots on the list in 2020 and beyond. Building a list through the draft takes time, this build started in 2014 and there is now good signs the hard work since is capable of reaching and sustaining finals. This list now has many good parts to it including speed and versatility as well as some much discussed A grade talent and I suspect we will push one or two more of our home grown onto the A grade list in 2020 and beyond. It very clear our list is improving and it's clear we are now a destination club and part of the reason for that is ironically where we are at our stage of development, i.e. we are not at the start of the major rebuild like we were in 2014. If we can improve on our 9 wins this year then who knows, we might even have more A graders wanting to jump onboard, isn't that how a slow burn works (aka a successful rebuild through the draft...and trading). The operative word in that last sentence being "successful".

[/quote]

Think of it like a lost opportunity - other clubs (like Collingwood, Richmond, Geelong and Hawthorn) have managed to sustain their success over recent years, we haven't been able to.

Our recruiting has been poor over those years - and I do like the inclusion of speed, finally - but we've been calling for that for years. Also, recruiting for skills would be nice.
Above all, no more duplication - we need to target the right players from now on and the missing ingredients.

if we're doing that, now - then I'm happy.
We need to learn from our mistakes - and we need to acknowledge that we've made plenty.

[freely]

The OP identifies the downside of these trades - for mine, it's a massive vote of no confidence in our own ability to develop players, which actually has a fair bit to do with gameplan. It's a bit of a catch-22. We're bringing in ready-made players, so there's no cohesive unit, but we're rubbish at developing our own players because we've got no cohesive unit to introduce them into.

[Saintmatt]

Off field, we have a brand new coach who is, good selection or not, a total mercenary. The admin, whether doing well or not, are also new and not deeply invested in the St.Kilda footy club half as much as they are in their own careers.

I think pretty much everyone involved in the AFL nowadays could be classified as mercenary to some extent. Ratten is no different to all the others who have had a playing career with one club and gone on to coaching, admin or other roles in the industry. If Ratts is a mercenary so are Harves, Lenny and Roo.

That's one of the more bizarre statements that's ever been posted on this forum. Ratten a mercenary? Really? He played at Carlton for 13 years; Coached there for 6 years (left not of his own choosing). Then he went to Hawthorn for 6 years before us. So - in total - he's been at 3 clubs in 25 years. Ratten is as far from a mercenary as you can get. Compare him to say, Ross Lyon. FFS - bizarre statement.

OP needs to put down the glass bbq for a bit

[saynta]

We were going nowhere in a hurry so all this change is brilliant.

Hopefully cloggers like Newnes, Rice, White, McCartin, McKenzie etc will be delisted and maybe Phillips also.

Our list was garbage and it showed.

Phillips will be a better player than his brother.

[barks4eva]

We were going nowhere in a hurry so all this change is brilliant.

Hopefully cloggers like Newnes, Rice, White, McCartin, McKenzie etc will be delisted and maybe Phillips also.

Our list was garbage and it showed.

Brandon White is not a clogger!

He just won Sandringham's B&F!

It's not his fault if he was not being selected despite being in the best players in almost every game he played this year.

Just because an absolute goofball coach didn't select him does not mean he's no good.

Or is your opinion influenced by Alan Richardson's opinions?