Watters

[WellardSaint]

Never mentioned the WA guy he hired as an assistant without club approval or the full forward draft reject he also recruited from WA. Flog.

Not sure if it's a rumour that grew legs, or if it's true,
but I heard that he brought that WA guy into the club with no consultation at all, and said 'he's a new assistant' and just expected the club to be ok with it.

[Crossy66]

Leadership 101. You have to have the troops want to follow you into battle.
He pissed off everyone down to the boot studder. He was fine as an assistant, where strong leaders like a malthouse or Maguire drove culture . Watters just didnt have that skill.
As for the club culture, as a playing group, collingwood were probably worse and even Hawthorn had major issues . Difference was their ability to keep it out of the papers or put spin on it.
Tired of this rubbish being thrown at stkilda

[WellardSaint]

WCE were into substances, according to a former player Daniel Chick- he blames their culture for his problems now.

Pies had drunk players crashing cars, De Goey lying about a hand injury, Buddy crashed his wife's Jeep into 7 parked cars, etc

A lot of clubs have stuff going on

[Cordz2]

Leadership 101. You have to have the troops want to follow you into battle.
He pissed off everyone down to the boot studder. He was fine as an assistant, where strong leaders like a malthouse or Maguire drove culture . Watters just didnt have that skill.
As for the club culture, as a playing group, collingwood were probably worse and even Hawthorn had major issues . Difference was their ability to keep it out of the papers or put spin on it.
Tired of this rubbish being thrown at stkilda

Good point - other clubs (Eddie) are great at making sure saints get in the paper for trash when we’re a premiership threat

[Trev from the Bush]

Blamed the "senior" players, not game enough to name them.

[Scollop]

He walked into a wreck and I wouldn't have taken on the job if I was him. I have spoken to dads of a couple of young players in the past who played under him, and the young guys liked him, but apparently some of the older players egos were so huge and were not prepared to be told how to do anything after failing in the finals campaigns under Lyon, and continually sooked to the directors and whoever would listen, so that was pretty much the end of Watters. It was a typical tail St Kilda wagging the dog scenario that has hounded the club in its history and has resulted in years of no premierships.

I believe Scott Watters was very poorly treated. I never heard him undermining his players, but to have him denigrated and humiliated is a stain on our history. There are opportunities for players to voice an opinion, but it needs to be given with respect. The Board failed Watters by not upholding the basic standards a coach should expect. This is not a comment on his abilities as a coach, although he clearly has support outside our club.

Joey and Roo are good mates. Apparently it was Joey who had organised a dwarf to perform for the Saints Mad Monday. I would think it highly unlikely that the players would organise a Mad Monday celebration without the captain knowing what was being organised.

I know that Roo wasn't present as he usually would head off to the USA but you'd think that Joey would've discussed it with Roo while Roo was still around. NDS talks about Roo as one the best leaders of men on field. His reputaion could have been so much more enhanced if he and the players under him didn't behave like teenagers off it.

[Crossy66]

He walked into a wreck and I wouldn't have taken on the job if I was him. I have spoken to dads of a couple of young players in the past who played under him, and the young guys liked him, but apparently some of the older players egos were so huge and were not prepared to be told how to do anything after failing in the finals campaigns under Lyon, and continually sooked to the directors and whoever would listen, so that was pretty much the end of Watters. It was a typical tail St Kilda wagging the dog scenario that has hounded the club in its history and has resulted in years of no premierships.

I believe Scott Watters was very poorly treated. I never heard him undermining his players, but to have him denigrated and humiliated is a stain on our history. There are opportunities for players to voice an opinion, but it needs to be given with respect. The Board failed Watters by not upholding the basic standards a coach should expect. This is not a comment on his abilities as a coach, although he clearly has support outside our club.

Joey and Roo are good mates. Apparently it was Joey who had organised a dwarf to perform for the Saints Mad Monday. I would think it highly unlikely that the players would organise a Mad Monday celebration without the captain knowing what was being organised.

I know that Roo wasn't present as he usually would head off to the USA but you'd think that Joey would've discussed it with Roo while Roo was still around. NDS talks about Roo as one the best leaders of men on field. I have a problem believing that, especially when he and the players under him behaved like teenagers off it.

By definition, it matters little what onlookers think about roo as a leader. The acid test is the opinion of those he led.
I think roo's impact on stkilda during his time cannot be underestimated.

[Crossy66]

WCE were into substances, according to a former player Daniel Chick- he blames their culture for his problems now.

Pies had drunk players crashing cars, De Goey lying about a hand injury, Buddy crashed his wife's Jeep into 7 parked cars, etc

A lot of clubs have stuff going on

Absolute tip of the iceberg. The stuff that got swept under the carpet would blow your socks off.
Even some of the publicised stuff with didak, beams, the rat pack etc etc was on another level.

[Scollop]

I edited what I initially wrote because it wasn't exactly what I wanted to express

There is no doubt that he led the club well during the Lyon period and our Grand Final years and I've posted countless times how much he gave to the club but maybe we should have done what Clarko has done with Hawthorn champions and tried to create sustained success for the club rather than hanging on to all our stars until they were hobbling on one leg

I know it's difficult to take emotion out of the debate, but after the Watters years I think that we could have done a Lockett type trade and tried to rebuild the club with a young future leader or perhaps a very good young midfielder.

What if we got some decent draft picks and also a young player coming to the club in 2014 when there was talk of Roo going to Collingwood? At what point does a leader and a giant of the club overstay his use by date when you consider the sliding doors moments after BJ and Dal Santo were traded?

Who benefited most out of Roo's last five years at the club? Roo or the club? The year after Roo retired, the head coach and everyone at the club was lamenting the lack of leaders

Neutral observers and people outside the club are probably best placed to objectively assess whether Roo was the best person to lead the club during the Richardson rebuild.

[saynta]

Leadership 101. You have to have the troops want to follow you into battle.
He pissed off everyone down to the boot studder. He was fine as an assistant, where strong leaders like a malthouse or Maguire drove culture . Watters just didnt have that skill.
As for the club culture, as a playing group, collingwood were probably worse and even Hawthorn had major issues . Difference was their ability to keep it out of the papers or put spin on it.
Tired of this rubbish being thrown at stkilda

Good point - other clubs (Eddie) are great at making sure saints get in the paper for trash when we’re a premiership threat

The little s*** was really mr f****** nobody.

Is it okay to say that joffa ast he is a former coach?

.

[saynta]

I edited what I initially wrote because it wasn't exactly what I wanted to express

There is no doubt that he led the club well during the Lyon period and our Grand Final years and I've posted countless times how much he gave to the club but maybe we should have done what Clarko has done with Hawthorn champions and tried to create sustained success for the club rather than hanging on to all our stars until they were hobbling on one leg

I know it's difficult to take emotion out of the debate, but after the Watters years I think that we could have done a Lockett type trade and tried to rebuild the club with a young future leader or perhaps a very good young midfielder.

What if we got some decent draft picks and also a young player coming to the club in 2014 when there was talk of Roo going to Collingwood? At what point does a leader and a giant of the club overstay his use by date when you consider the sliding doors moments after BJ and Dal Santo were traded?

Who benefited most out of Roo's last five years at the club? Roo or the club? The year after Roo retired, the head coach and everyone at the club was lamenting the lack of leaders

Neutral observers and people outside the club are probably best placed to objectively assess whether Roo was the best person to lead the club during the Richardson rebuild.

Lockett type trade?

We actually got 2 fifths of SFA for plugger, so,no,thanks.
.

[Scollop]

Ok. Change that for a Barry Hall type trade then

[SaintPav]

Where’s he working now again?

[Enrico_Misso]

Interesting that back then we wouldn't give BJ a 5 year contract.
But now we offer a broken down 29 year old hack a 5 year contract on $800k per year!

[Crossy66]

I edited what I initially wrote because it wasn't exactly what I wanted to express

There is no doubt that he led the club well during the Lyon period and our Grand Final years and I've posted countless times how much he gave to the club but maybe we should have done what Clarko has done with Hawthorn champions and tried to create sustained success for the club rather than hanging on to all our stars until they were hobbling on one leg

I know it's difficult to take emotion out of the debate, but after the Watters years I think that we could have done a Lockett type trade and tried to rebuild the club with a young future leader or perhaps a very good young midfielder.

What if we got some decent draft picks and also a young player coming to the club in 2014 when there was talk of Roo going to Collingwood? At what point does a leader and a giant of the club overstay his use by date when you consider the sliding doors moments after BJ and Dal Santo were traded?

Who benefited most out of Roo's last five years at the club? Roo or the club? The year after Roo retired, the head coach and everyone at the club was lamenting the lack of leaders

Neutral observers and people outside the club are probably best placed to objectively assess whether Roo was the best person to lead the club during the Richardson rebuild.

So the consensus is there was a massive leadership void when roo retired, so the thought is we should have gotten rid of someone regarded by his peers as the best onfield leader of men 5 years earlier?
Doesnt seem logical. I would argue that getting rid of other leaders such as BJ and Dal stunted our growth and the development of the likes of Billings who weren't ready to shoulder the expectation. (Notwithstanding salary cap constraints).

I think most people outside the bubble are not qualified to assess leadership performance.

[suss]

these discussions are always interesting because people line up and fight their preconceptions of who is good who was bad
eg over in the RL vs Gt debate thread
What I find interesting, no one is disputing Watters portrayal of the events at the time - more that they just dont like him
Watters made two mistakes during his time at the club - he made the comment asking "...exactly what have the players actually achieved?" and the saints are in a rebuild comment quickly withdrawn after being rebuked by the club
So media mouth NDS, you talk about culture and how it was perfectly fine at the saints because of what they had achieved in 09-10 - the point is you and the inner circle mates came last in a two horse race. And there was a culture in that inner circle bubble you can take d!ck pics of your mate in the seclusion of your motel room - really who does that with your mate ? Girlfriend I can can get but male mate??? And that wasnt even the worst of it

But back to the point, in the history of the club we have only rectified the GF tally once - that is the point Watters made and that is the point the players didnt like.
From that moment on Watters was doomed in the eyes of the playing list

AS far as his appointment is concerned you can see the clubs point of view getting someone from a club that had actually won the thing and also his past record in WA but that too soured quickly

Lols! How’s Dal. No culture problem. Must’ve forgot about:

Armo - Duthie
Naked Roo
Lovett
Gilbo - Duthie
Naked Dal
Milne / Joey affair
Nixon - Duthie
The Seaford disaster

That’s not to mention “the Bubble” disaster where the players / coach thought they were so s*** hot they didnt answer to anyone or give a s*** about members / fans.

FMD. What a funny bloke.

[mcadam05]

still makes me laugh

[cps]

Wasn't there talk at the time of his sacking that his game-day coaching was terrible? He would train specific things then change them completely during the game?

[bigcarl]

still makes me laugh

It’s one of those ones when you shouldn’t laugh ... and you try to hold it in.

[WellardSaint]

Wasn't there talk at the time of his sacking that his game-day coaching was terrible? He would train specific things then change them completely during the game?

Was it Watters who brought Saad into a game after his suspension without prior consult with match committee?

[Crossy66]

these discussions are always interesting because people line up and fight their preconceptions of who is good who was bad
eg over in the RL vs Gt debate thread
What I find interesting, no one is disputing Watters portrayal of the events at the time - more that they just dont like him
Watters made two mistakes during his time at the club - he made the comment asking "...exactly what have the players actually achieved?" and the saints are in a rebuild comment quickly withdrawn after being rebuked by the club
So media mouth NDS, you talk about culture and how it was perfectly fine at the saints because of what they had achieved in 09-10 - the point is you and the inner circle mates came last in a two horse race. And there was a culture in that inner circle bubble you can take d!ck pics of your mate in the seclusion of your motel room - really who does that with your mate ? Girlfriend I can can get but male mate??? And that wasnt even the worst of it

But back to the point, in the history of the club we have only rectified the GF tally once - that is the point Watters made and that is the point the players didnt like.
From that moment on Watters was doomed in the eyes of the playing list

AS far as his appointment is concerned you can see the clubs point of view getting someone from a club that had actually won the thing and also his past record in WA but that too soured quickly

Lols! How’s Dal. No culture problem. Must’ve forgot about:

Armo - Duthie
Naked Roo
Lovett
Gilbo - Duthie
Naked Dal
Milne / Joey affair
Nixon - Duthie
The Seaford disaster

That’s not to mention “the Bubble” disaster where the players / coach thought they were so s*** hot they didnt answer to anyone or give a s*** about members / fans.

FMD. What a funny bloke.

5 of your 8 points relate to the one issue .
Lovett never played for us and was an essendon cultural issue,
Seaford was a bad board decision not a player cultural issue.
Just leaves one issue and if you think that is unique then you are living under a rock.
Are you saying collingwood had no culture issues through the same period with its playing group? I.e when watters was there.
What about the drug epidemic at west coast in watters time?

[BarryGrogan]

these discussions are always interesting because people line up and fight their preconceptions of who is good who was bad
eg over in the RL vs Gt debate thread
What I find interesting, no one is disputing Watters portrayal of the events at the time - more that they just dont like him
Watters made two mistakes during his time at the club - he made the comment asking "...exactly what have the players actually achieved?" and the saints are in a rebuild comment quickly withdrawn after being rebuked by the club
So media mouth NDS, you talk about culture and how it was perfectly fine at the saints because of what they had achieved in 09-10 - the point is you and the inner circle mates came last in a two horse race. And there was a culture in that inner circle bubble you can take d!ck pics of your mate in the seclusion of your motel room - really who does that with your mate ? Girlfriend I can can get but male mate??? And that wasnt even the worst of it

But back to the point, in the history of the club we have only rectified the GF tally once - that is the point Watters made and that is the point the players didnt like.
From that moment on Watters was doomed in the eyes of the playing list

AS far as his appointment is concerned you can see the clubs point of view getting someone from a club that had actually won the thing and also his past record in WA but that too soured quickly

Lols! How’s Dal. No culture problem. Must’ve forgot about:

Armo - Duthie
Naked Roo
Lovett
Gilbo - Duthie
Naked Dal
Milne / Joey affair
Nixon - Duthie
The Seaford disaster

That’s not to mention “the Bubble” disaster where the players / coach thought they were so s*** hot they didnt answer to anyone or give a s*** about members / fans.

FMD. What a funny bloke.

What does Duthie have to do with culture?

[saintly]

Never mentioned the WA guy he hired as an assistant without club approval or the full forward draft reject he also recruited from WA. Flog.

Not sure if it's a rumour that grew legs, or if it's true,
but I heard that he brought that WA guy into the club with no consultation at all, and said 'he's a new assistant' and just expected the club to be ok with it.

Yes it was true.

[saintly]

Wasn't there talk at the time of his sacking that his game-day coaching was terrible? He would train specific things then change them completely during the game?

Was it Watters who brought Saad into a game after his suspension without prior consult with match committee?

Yes

[SaintPav]

Wasn't the relationship between him and all his coaching assistants untenable and didn't they threaten to walk out at one stage?!

He also used to repeat empty and meaningless cliches like ”We don't shy away from that”.

Cringeful.