The best ruckman in a generation

[saintsRrising]

The last couple of games, did I imagine it or have we sometimes been using Carlisle down back and Bruce up forward, even when Marshall's on the ground? I know people on here hate Bruce rucking (possibly because he's not very good at it!) - but it does seem to make sense to have this sort of setup instead of just one ruck rushing from stoppage to stoppage. Reasons against?

Carlisle for the last 3 weeks has been doing some rucking.

But one noticeable difference in the Doggies match was that Marshall was rucking up forward rather than Bruce or Acres. Win the ball in the forward line and you have a good chance o fa scoring opportunity started by Marshall.

[desertsaint]

Greatest ruck since a bloke named Polly walked into Geelong from out west.

[StPeter]

Hickey or Stanley would have been perfect second ruck to him.

The powers that be instead moved them both on and kept Longer. Huge mistake.

[B.M]

And where would Hickey and Stanley play when not in the ruck and what Percentage would they play in the ruck?

[howlinwolf]

Is the OP a statement or question ?
St Kilda best or AFL best ?

If it's St Kilda, I'd say Gardiner is worth considering.
Purely for ruckwork Gards might have Rowan.

Gards contested marking was pretty damn good too. Round 10 2009

However Rowan is the epitome of the perfect new age ruck man.

Really he's an over sized midfielder that can ruck very well.
He has a great footy brain.

Knows when to hold them and when to fold them.
Doesn't panic.
Very good contested mark and can kick a goal. Long goals too.

What a find. Thanks North Ballarat. A diamond in the rough.

The highlight of the Saints 2019 for me.

[Linton Lodger]

Jesus!

Talk about going over the top?!

He has plenty of development to go, to get to the level of Gawn and Grundy. Or even to where Stef Martin or Goldstein when they were at their best. Then you’ve got Nic Nat.

He is still getting well beaten by the bigger ruckmen at stoppage, and has to build his strength and power.

Got no doubt he’ll end up a beauty, but Dean Cox, Grundy, Gawn he is not, Will he ever be? Not sure he’s big enough?

Everything you say is perfectly sensible BM and I know its early days, but there's something special about this kid.

How good will he be remains to be seen. Although I know he's good enough for us not to need to pursue Goldstein or Draper.

Edit: You're right, he's not any of the players you mention. He reminds me of Carl Ditterich.

[howlinwolf]

He still dominates at stoppage. He is not as good as Gawn and Grundy, however, he gives Shuey an armchair ride. He doesn’t read the footy in general play. He ha# also been an AA ruckman.

If NN played on Marshall now

Marshall would get 15-20 poss, 5-8 marks, 15-20 hit outs
Nic Nat would get 10-12 poss, 2-4 marks, 30-40 hit outs

WC would win centre clearance and stoppage clearance 2 to 1

What if NN played for St kilda ?
Would we win those clearances 2:1 ?
With our mids compared to theirs ?

Not comparing apples to apples there BM.

I'd keep Rowan over NN any day.

[B.M]

Yes we would, you can set up aggressively at stoppage when you you know where the Ball is going.

If J Steven was roving to Natinui he would win 10 clearances on his own.

[Brunswicksainter]

An extraordinary performance.

But we need to protect him and help him. I'd be thinking about playing him in tandem with Longer for the rest of the year.

His body is taking a battering. It's wonderful to see, but it's time to think about 2020 and beyond.

I'd say to Longer the only way to save his career is to become an absolute battering ram.

Longer is out with concussion, hasn't played for months. Ditto Pierce!

I find it incredible that we have 3 players with near permanent concussion.
I don't think the game has changed rapidly enough to cause that.
I think that concussion is finally being diagnosed correctly and indicates that in the past a lot of players were still playing with the effects of concussion.
Just wait for the legal cases to begin.

Great Point.

[St Loxton]

The ruck to compare Marshall with is Grundy.

Grundy is 20 months older.

Both will get better.

But Marshall is new to his position at AFL Level. His rate of improvement over this year is stunning. His upside now is breathaking, as long as he does not plateau and I do not think he will anytime soon.

He has all the hallmarks of the great players. The raw ability, the focus, the swagger and the talent. And yes dare I say the Lenny Hayes ability to drag other players (his team mates) along with him.

Max too is a very good ruck. But Marshall edges him in ball use and mobility.

Many modern rucks are poor marks. Marshall is a good mark.

Marshall's ability at the the ruck contest will now also get only better and better as he will focus on it in games and in training.

Behind me at the last game a Doggies fan cried out "But he took the ball out of of the air"...obviously unaware of the rule change. At last we have an AFL rule change that actually advantages a St Kilda Player for a change.
Marshall has two great abilities that work well for him in this:
- He can dispose of the ball well by hand and foot
- He has amazing core strength and stability. He grabs the ball, and opponents tackle him, but he still gets the ball off.

In the Doggies game Ratten seemed to want to take more advantage of this ability as it happened more. Plus Ratten actually allowed him to ruck forward. Under Richo it was Bruce or Acres taking the ball ups in our forward line. Marshall winning the ball in our forward 50 creates scoring opportunities.


Grundy might be Grand. But Marshall I think will be Magnificent.

PS: Bytel will start his career in 2020 as a mid thanking his lucky stars that Marshall will be his ruck.

Well said, he just has a vibe about him that i feel makes the mids stand taller.

[sunsaint]

He still dominates at stoppage. He is not as good as Gawn and Grundy, however, he gives Shuey an armchair ride. He doesn’t read the footy in general play. He ha# also been an AA ruckman.

If NN played on Marshall now

Marshall would get 15-20 poss, 5-8 marks, 15-20 hit outs
Nic Nat would get 10-12 poss, 2-4 marks, 30-40 hit outs

WC would win centre clearance and stoppage clearance 2 to 1

What if NN played for St kilda ?
Would we win those clearances 2:1 ?
With our mids compared to theirs ?

Not comparing apples to apples there BM.

I'd keep Rowan over NN any day.

So would I
even tho I have seen Natanui do some things on the footy field that disobey the laws of physics and standard ruckwork - like leap over the oppo ruck land gather his own tap run 20 mts and kick a goal - there is a major flaw in his game. He cant stay healthy on the park - so at this point in careers I would take Marshall

While I would consider B.Ms estimates on possible head to head stats between Marshall & Natanui as pure hypotheticals, at least he is not proposing Longer instead

[B.M]

I too would take Marshall in a heart beat over NN. Mainly because of his trajectory as a player versus NN

Just simply suggesting, that NN is a dangerous proposition in the ruck to play against, as he gives his mids first use. Much the same way the Sandilands used to.

I rate Grundy as the best AFL ruckman, then Gawn, then daylight, then Goldstein, then NN and Lycett
Then Marshall, Kruzer, Martin, Ryder, Witts, Nankervis, Mumford, O’Brien all about even, with any of them able to beat the other on their day.

Thing is,

Only Marshall and O’Brien are getting better, whilst others are already peaking or declining.

In two Years Marshall will be a genuine A Grade ruckman.

[saintsRrising]

Thing is,

Only Marshall and O’Brien are getting better, whilst others are already peaking or declining.

In two Years Marshall will be a genuine A Grade ruckman.

Grundy is only 25 years, 3 months old.

Disposals and HO's are both up again this season as they have been most years.

I see him as improving for a few more season yet before he peaks.

[saintsRrising]

In two Years Marshall will be a genuine A Grade ruckman.

I guess it depends what you consider a ruckman is.

IMO his around the ground play is already better than most ruckman will ever be.

That leaves his tapwork, which yes while it needs to improve and will, is already now quite reasonable in quantity and quality. Plus his physicality at the contest is massive.

So IMO averaging all aspects of what a ruckman is on current form he is an A Grade Ruckman. Whether he stays that anyone's guess

Question is for me more not whether he will become an A Grade Ruckman, but whether he will become a true elite of the game.

[B.M]

He’s not A Grade at the moment IMO, however he’s in great form and not far off. he’s playing very well around the ground, but is still learning how to compete in the ruck, this is by his own admission.

If he improves his strength and power and can give our mids first use, he will be the full package as a ruckman.

[stkfc1]

I remember the commentators were praising both Marshall and English saying how we had the next 10 years to look forward to watching their battles unfold. English will also be a very, very good ruckman.
Agree with most of the above though. Marshall could be anything and love how he's taken his game to a whole new level in a short amount of time. Just get some decent mids at his feet and look out!!

[The Barometer]

The ruck to compare Marshall with is Grundy.

Grundy is 20 months older.

Both will get better.

But Marshall is new to his position at AFL Level. His rate of improvement over this year is stunning. His upside now is breathaking, as long as he does not plateau and I do not think he will anytime soon.

He has all the hallmarks of the great players. The raw ability, the focus, the swagger and the talent. And yes dare I say the Lenny Hayes ability to drag other players (his team mates) along with him.

Max too is a very good ruck. But Marshall edges him in ball use and mobility.

Many modern rucks are poor marks. Marshall is a good mark.

Marshall's ability at the the ruck contest will now also get only better and better as he will focus on it in games and in training.

Behind me at the last game a Doggies fan cried out "But he took the ball out of of the air"...obviously unaware of the rule change. At last we have an AFL rule change that actually advantages a St Kilda Player for a change.
Marshall has two great abilities that work well for him in this:
- He can dispose of the ball well by hand and foot
- He has amazing core strength and stability. He grabs the ball, and opponents tackle him, but he still gets the ball off.

In the Doggies game Ratten seemed to want to take more advantage of this ability as it happened more. Plus Ratten actually allowed him to ruck forward. Under Richo it was Bruce or Acres taking the ball ups in our forward line. Marshall winning the ball in our forward 50 creates scoring opportunities.


Grundy might be Grand. But Marshall I think will be Magnificent.

PS: Bytel will start his career in 2020 as a mid thanking his lucky stars that Marshall will be his ruck.

Nailed it. Core strength, stability and disposal. Players walk taller in the presence of a player like this. Has the ability to lift the team and we don’t have many (any?) of that ilk.

[CQ SAINT]

For his age and career games tally he is tracking as the third best ruckman currently playing, English and O'Brien aren't that far behind but Marshall is streaks ahead of all others in metres gained.
Only Grundy and Gawn had won more taps but had been in an elite environment longer than Marshall, however he impacts the game equally or better in terms of possession and positioning.
I picked this kid in his first ruck outing against Gawn in a practice match last year and stand by my assessment that he is something special, a game changer.
He leaps a little early, it is usually a confidence thing, but he is improving rapidly.
Importantly, he has plenty of time to learn and he has the ability to demand both Gawn and Grundy's best from them when he presents himself.to them. His ceiling is extremely high and he will be our biggest commodity going forward. I also believe he will be loyal, we virtually picked him from nowhere and his commitment to his own development for 4 years now has been nothing short of outstanding.

[Jacks Back]

He does most things well already but he just needs to learn to time his jump better at centre bounces (when he jumps - sometimes he doesn't). He is always jumping too early.

[B.M]

He is a good’n

But not as great (yet) as he is being made out to be. He has a lot to learn. And he has to get stronger yet.

[bigred]

You know he's going to get better right?

Focus moving forward will have much more ruck craft involved.

Should be top two in our B&F this year and could actually win it.

2020 will be the brownlow.

[howlinwolf]

If Max King becomes as good a player as Rowan we are in for heavenly times !
Throw in the possibility of Ben king at CHB and the sun is poking out from the clouds.
Believe Sainters.
When it happens there will be no one as happy as us, including Dogs fans.

[howlinwolf]

THE best 2 metre midfielder ever. Period.

[B.M]

Who is?

Brodie Grundy??

[Joffa Burns]

Premature evaluation guys.

I’m a huge Marshall fan, but let’s let him play consistent good football before we claim him elite or best ever.

Enormous potential, great season, most promising breakout player we’ve seen in a long, long time but to be elite you need to do it consistently for many seasons.