Do We Have A Rubbish Team And Will A New Coach Make A Difference?

[damienc]

Let me say from the outset. I don't subscribe to the proposition expounded in the headline.

In fact the opposite.

I believe we have the nucleus of a very good, competitive team that might even be capable of great things. We show signs but not consistently or for long enough.

What is concerning is the lack of development of guys who showed a bit in the past but just haven't gone on with it and some who showed a bit but whose form fell away.

Probably because they were played out of position or asked to do what they weren't suited to doing.

Blake Acres immediately springs to mind. Brandon White who has never been given a proper go.

Everyone agrees Richo was a nice guy. His problem? He couldn't coach or take us to the next level and he had to go and he's gone.

So the hunt is on for his replacement. Ratts is the interim but might put up his hand for the permanent role.

But my purpose here is not to debate the merits of Brett Ratten.

I would be interested to know what other people think of our footy team?

Have a think before you answer. Too easy to dismiss them as rubbish.

Do we have the nucleus of something good and maybe great? Could the right person bring out the very best?

Yes, there are some glaring holes that need to be filled.

But will a new coach revitalise our existing playing group in same way that's happened at North Melbourne? New coach, new game plan??? Even some positive steps in the right direction would give some reason to hope?

[St DAC]

We have a list full of mediocre players. That makes us a mediocre team. We don't, IMO, have a single A grade player on the list.

We have some kids with talent that needs development. They may end up A grade, but until that happy day arrives I doubt we play finals.

Our ladder position is a reasonable reflection of our list strength. The new coach, whoever it is, will have his work cut out to make an immediate positive impact.

It could be a long road still ...

[Moods]

We have a list full of mediocre players. That makes us a mediocre team. We don't, IMO, have a single A grade player on the list.

We have some kids with talent that needs development. They may end up A grade, but until that happy day arrives I doubt we play finals.

Our ladder position is a reasonable reflection of our list strength. The new coach, whoever it is, will have his work cut out to make an immediate positive impact.

It could be a long road still ...

Largely agree with this. However I reckon a decent coach will make us more competitive

[Bowey Boy]

Yes and Yes.

[CURLY]

I will let you know when our best team plays a few games together.

[spert]

As the old saying goes- a champion team will always beat a team of champions. The Saints have always looked for a couple of champions being the requirement for success and it has always failed.

[Impatient Sainter]

A new coach with a good eye for football will work on the small things that will make a huge difference. The first would be setting much higher training expectations on skill levels and dedicating a lot more time perfecting those skills. Practice at an elite level and expect players to deliver with their skills eg

kicking,
handballing,
contested marking,
roving marking duells or hitouts,
not kicking off one step,
not handballing to stationary team mates or team mates under pressure,
changing the angle so you kick flatter and not over the man on the mark,
honouring leading players and hitting him with a decent pass,
sticking tackles,
defensive skills like forcing the forward under the ball or spoiling to our advantage,
forwards leading to space and kicking it to their advantage.

All are just some of the skills Richo hasnt been able to improve and can be improved with a rigid and high intensity elite training program.

[cwrcyn]

If you look at the playing list, we need to consider how good are our under 23's, because if there's a solid base there, you can bring in talent in the next three seasons and bolster the quality.

Coffield 19
Clark 20
Phillips 21
Paton 20
Wilkie 23
Marshall 23
Long 21
Lonie 22
Billings 23
Gresham 21
Battle 20
Acres 23
Steele 23
White 22
Parker 23

King 19
Bytel 19
Clavarino 20

So, we have 15 players aged 23 and under who have played this year. You also have two 24 year olds in Dunstan and Hind, and then three untried youngsters with lost of potential in Bytel, King, and Clavarino.


As far as the playing list is concerned, it's not doom and gloom. Find a couple of midfield ball magnets, and we start to look like a pretty good unit

[Josh Battle]

How in the hell can you paint the whole team with such a derogatory and negative word?

If you don't subscribe to the headline, then don't write the bloody phrase "Rubbish Team" in the first place

As far as the playing list is concerned, didn't the footy department and Finnis say in 2018 that they were capable of playing finals and perhaps contending for a top 4 spot. According to the Richo apologists and the head coach himself, there were mixed messages in this regard. It was always the player leadership and the playing list and the assistant coaches who held us back and not the coach.

Time to move on.

There are countless threads on whether Richo should have been sacked last year. That's basically where we are at. This whole year was a waste of time and as soon as Ratten takes over I believe we will see positive improvement. There are also changes made to playing lists all the time and no doubt the conversation will now focus on recruitment and drafting

[saintsRrising]

As the old saying goes- a champion team will always beat a team of champions. The Saints have always looked for a couple of champions being the requirement for success and it has always failed.

I doubt that. Yes we have had teams with an elite top end, but I don't think we just looked for a couple of champions at all. It just for various reasons happened that way. I think it is also more that when we have hada good top end that it has dragged the rest along.

Lyon got many GOPs firing at the right time to add the stars, and Alves worked some magic before it all fell apart with some crucial injuries and unfortunate incidents with two key players in GF week.

Under GT we did make the mistake of overpaying our cream which hamstrung us somewhat. Cats and Hawks did not make that mistake.


At present I think we have a team of a many ok players, but virtually no starts and certainly no players who can regularly turn games or be matchwinners.

Our current lack of the cream is principally due to just picking the wrong players. And not just from the top end of the draft, as teams need to get some diamonds occasionally with lower picks (Fisher, Milne....).

Marshall is our first such diamond from a latish pick since Jack Steven. Battle may be another, but Marshall would look to have a higher ceiling. Hell we haven't even had a players better than Steven with earlier picks than he cost since Steven! How damning is that.


As a list we have many vanilla players, and making it worse as a whole we have also taken players with only so so to poor disposal skills.

We have in the main a support cast and no main actors. We need some genuine stars. With such beasts, just watch the others lift.

[mullet]

I think Rowan Marshall will be a champion. He is a beautiful footballer. I look forward to watching him over the coming years

[Saint wagga]

I can’t believe we drafted 2 18 year olds who were unlikely to play a single game of afl footy this season...I still just shake my head at this descion. We needed instant impact, we needed real tangible hope straight away. We couldn’t afford to take in two picks that we wouldn’t see in afl colours for 2 years!! That is just an eternity and for our supporter base, just we’re we were with mccartin and Goddard being such a bust ( and even before patty got ruled out, know body thought he was going to be a gun, he looked average), not much from Clarke and Coffield...whoever made these calls just didn’t get where our club was at I reckon.

In saying all that, we have some young talent at the club, we will get another top 5 pick this year. I think a good solid mature afl proven Ruck (Goldstein preferably or Jacobs or Ryder) to allow Marshall to play forward/Ruck...I think he’d be awesome in that role and then the filter down for bruce/king and would be great!

I have lots of personal opinions on who should play where, so would everyone on this forum, but to answer the question, I think if we are able to recruit a good afl proven mid, get a ruckman (and ffs get rid of longer and Pierce once and for all), have sone better luck with injuries to Carlisle and hannerbury, and I think we could be around the top eight. I don’t think that’s pie in the sky, but we’d need a good dose of good fortune and a s*** load of a better game plan...again, over to you bassat

[B.M]

Only GC has a worse list. We are just below Hawthorn, who are also rubbish.

Carlton have heaps of Upside, with some really impressive talent, including who I think is the best player in the comp.

Any team you name besides GC, I could name 3 players that are better than our best player, which is still Jack Steven, even though he isn’t playing.

[Zed]

Who was our last All Australian - actual AA , not "squad member"

2014 - Nick Reiwoldt
2012 - Stephen Milne, Sean Dempster
2011 - Stephen Milne, Nick Dal Santo,
2010 - Brendan Goddard , Leigh Montagna
2009 - Brendan Goddard, Leigh Montagna, Dal Santo, Reiwoldt, Lenny Hayes
..and so on.
With the exception of the 2000-2002 years when we bottomed out, almost every year going way back to 1991 we have had at least 1 representative and often more than 1.
But in those 2000-2002 years we had rising stars nominations galore, and a few ex-AA's still kicking around guiding the way. There was always still a reason to go watch, whether it be the ex-AA's or the young rising stars. I find it really hard to watch us play right now. No rising stars of real quality. No ex-AA's and legends running around. Struggle to kick 10 or more goals a game. Deplorable foot skills. Long bombs into the forward line.

Our current list is very ordinary - its a team of good support cast members but no leading lights.
Billings is not the match winning messiah. Paddy didnt pan out. Too many of our draft picks never delivered on the promise they showed in their first year (Dunstan, Acres, Lonie, Gresham). Perhaps Clark and Coff may defy the trend and still have some upside. Bruce is a good 2nd string forward but not the main target. Likewise Membrey a capable 3rd tall - not a key forward. Marshall showing some promise but I doubt he will ever be AA ruck. Carlisle and Hannebery (if he gets on the park) are not match winners - and Im willing to bet next years "big fish" wont be either.

I hope King lives up to the hype next year, because we have lots of B+ players, a few A minus players, but definitely no elite AAs or elite Rising Stars at this point in time.

We need to find / develop 2 or 3 genuine AA's contenders to be a genuine chance of making finals.
Double that number if we want to seriously contend for a flag.

It feels like we are still at least 2 years away from finals.

[portosaint]

Only GC has a worse list. We are just below Hawthorn, who are also rubbish.

Carlton have heaps of Upside, with some really impressive talent, including who I think is the best player in the comp.

Any team you name besides GC, I could name 3 players that are better than our best player, which is still Jack Steven, even though he isn’t playing.

In your opinion of course. Which is just that, an opinion.

[B.M]

Of course it’s my opinion, who else’s opinion would I write about?

But, if you give me a team, I’ll give you the three players if you want, then we can debate specifics

[HighettMan]

Only GC has a worse list. We are just below Hawthorn, who are also rubbish.

Carlton have heaps of Upside, with some really impressive talent, including who I think is the best player in the comp.

Any team you name besides GC, I could name 3 players that are better than our best player, which is still Jack Steven, even though he isn’t playing.

North Melbourne.

[portosaint]

Maybe, maybe not.

But anyone who thinks coaching doesn't have an influence at AFL level is taking the piss.

[B.M]

North Melbourne
Cunnington - best inside mid in the afl this year, underrated Gun!
Shaun Higgins - Dual B&F and silky inside mid with toughness, good ball winner, elite user
Robbie Tarrant - in the handful of best KDs in the AFL
Ben Brown - Runner Up in the Coleman last season, sitting third atm.
Jack Zeiball - outstanding leader, mid/fwd bull
Jye Simpkin looks alright too.

[WellardSaint]

Only GC has a worse list. We are just below Hawthorn, who are also rubbish.

Carlton have heaps of Upside, with some really impressive talent, including who I think is the best player in the comp.

Any team you name besides GC, I could name 3 players that are better than our best player, which is still Jack Steven, even though he isn’t playing.

I look at Carlscum's list, and expect them to leapfrog us.
Not like the Lions, who have just turbocharged somehow.
The Blues are well ahead of us, and if they get the right coach, they'll be a top 8 team next year.

We're 3 years away from top 8, maybe more

[HighettMan]

North Melbourne
Cunnington - best inside mid in the afl this year, underrated Gun!
Shaun Higgins - Dual B&F and silky inside mid with toughness, good ball winner, elite user
Robbie Tarrant - in the handful of best KDs in the AFL
Ben Brown - Runner Up in the Coleman last season, sitting third atm.
Jack Zeiball - outstanding leader, mid/fwd bull
Jye Simpkin looks alright too.

Dan Hanbury.

Jake Carlisle

Jack Steven

Jack steele (underrated gun)

Jack Billings

All these players would be in the best 22 at any other club.

[barks4eva]

Dan Hanbury.

Jake Carlisle

Jack Steven

Jack steele (underrated gun)

Jack Billings

All these players would be in the best 22 at any other club.

Rowan Marshall is probably our most valuable and best player right now.

Dan Hannebery would not be in most teams best 22... it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
If you're talking about Hannebery circa 2016 then I agree with you... however that does not reflect the reality of the situation right here, right now.

[asiu]

Carlisle sh!ts me

i never feel like he’s having a real go
... hopefully he proves me ignorant

[HighettMan]

Dan Hanbury.

Jake Carlisle

Jack Steven

Jack steele (underrated gun)

Jack Billings

All these players would be in the best 22 at any other club.

Rowan Marshall is probably our most valuable and best player right now.

Dan Hannebery would not be in most teams best 22... it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
If you're talking about Hannebery circa 2016 then I agree with you... however that does not reflect the reality of the situation right here, right now.

Ahhh! I Wondered whats smoked you out after all these years, a ruckman.

BTW, you are confusing injury with talent, just like in law it is innocent until proven guilty, in sport it is elite until retired.

[B.M]

So we have 5 players that would get games at other clubs?!

Is that the point you’re making?

To me that’s an indictment on our list, and shows where we are at atm

I think what the next 6 weeks will show

AR wasn’t the only thing wrong with the club, but I suppose it will be the next coach who’s at fault