The BIGGEST issue with our coach.

[Yorkeys]

Lyon and Richo are interesting if contrasting case studies in the world of coaching. Lyon seems to have flexible moral principles and no real altruistic affection for his players (plenty of examples, a coaching sociopath perhaps) - he is ruthless in fact and unapologetic with it. He had an excellent apprenticeship under Roos and is from the defensive well drilled school of thought. He has had two excellent groups from the Fremantle and St Kilda clubs with out and out champions in both sides. He has not been able to convert the best teams in a given year into a premier - close doesn't pay. Of course he should have got close, his teams should have won two or three. Strong mind, technical to the Nth degree game plan, mentally taxing on the players - but they are well paid. Richo - unspectacular apprenticeship, not a good list, seems a nice guy from reports; Geary intervention and concern for Paddy seems to show he does genuinely care for players (at least some) but has not been able to craft an efficient style to match his playing group's attributes and seems to be bloody minded in the face of the proven failure of some of his core principles, e.g. manic pressure, forwards up the ground, inexperienced players to earn their right to an AFL game, but without showing a clear credible path for that, does not seem have used the influence that comes with the head coach position to steer the team towards excellent recruiting (improvements in that regard are in the Lethlean era). Richo is certainly risk averse so maximising the potential of players by experimentation is a non starter. Lack of success over multiple years rationalised by reference to the vagaries of fate that actually impact every club. Fans probably never get excited going to a game to see what unexpected tactic Richo might employ to exploit an opposition. Whatever his strengths Richo has proven he is not the coach that can take our club to a winning season; maybe no one could have, but like Excalibur in the stone, you get a chance then you move on. The Lyon bridge has been burned and possibly a very good thing. He has built quite a myth around him as a master coach - but not sure it stands up to serious scrutiny.

[Ghost Like]

An excellent analysis and opinion of the two coaches Yorkeys. I think 6 years is enough, Richo does not appear to be able to change nor adapt to a current St Kilda landscape that requires change.

With a new President in conjunction with a new coach, I believe 2020 can be the beginning of a bright, fresh era. I've faith in our youth and believe we have a enough quality senior players, once on the park, to encourage, protect and guide that youth. That youth includes, Clavarino, Clark, Coffield, Paton, Langlands, White, King and Battle. Add Wilkie, Hind and Parker who are young in terms of AFL exposure. I am bullish that Hannerbury, Carlisle, Membrey and Steele can develop the likes of Billings, Gresham, Acres and Dunstan to their next level. Hard calls, soul searching and commitment required with and from others currently running around in our seniors.

[saintadamski]

Yorkeys... beautifully articulated, and accurate description on my opinion...on the money.

Ghost Like...I disagree with your optimistic view of our list.
I think the core senior group of Newnes, Geary, Savage, Bruce, Ross etc are C grade, and no where near good enough, while Clarke , Coffield, and Paton have no X factor IMO.

I agree with guys like White and Battle, but Richo simply won't give White a run, which is disheartening and frustrating.

I watched Geelong demolish Richmond last night... the Cats have A grade champions on every line. If you want to see what a premiership list looks like, there it is.

It's also immensely disappointing to see another talented ex Saints player, traded to another club (Stanley) , about to win a flag... just like Ball, Mcevoy, etc. Good for him though.

The Saints will only become a chance, once the current crop of 'seniors' move on... then, we need the new generation of players like Gresham and King to herald a new era.

This will only happen of course if the recruiters finally start making some decent decisions...

[Ghost Like]

I agree Saintadamski. If you notice, I did not mention any of those senior players. They and others are the ones we must make hard decisions about.

In terms of X factor, I hear that a lot. TBH I don't really know what it is, what it means or how much of it we need?

I don't want a team of highlight reels that go missing. Still that's better than a team that goes missing without highlights.

Give me 38 skilled, committed, professional footballers who play a disciplined brand of football that capture a winning game plan. I'm sure once we have that then the highlights will come as they trust each other to carry out their roles.

[saintadamski]

I agree Saintadamski. If you notice, I did not mention any of those senior players. They and others are the ones we must make hard decisions about.

In terms of X factor, I hear that a lot. TBH I don't really know what it is, what it means or how much of it we need?

I don't want a team of highlight reels that go missing. Still that's better than a team that goes missing without highlights.

Give me 38 skilled, committed, professional footballers who play a disciplined brand of football that capture a winning game plan. I'm sure once we have that then the highlights will come as they trust each other to carry out their roles.

Agree...well said.

Unfortunately we are miles away from what you described.

In regards to X factor... the best way I can describe it is a special quality.
This quality can manifest in many ways.... such as creativity and poise with amazing ability to evade (guys like Robert Harvey, Dal Santo), ..or explosive speed and beautiful use of the ball ( Gary Ablett, Dangerfield etc) , incredible ability to win the ball and read the play...Lenny Hayes...the list goes on.

I just don't see even the faintest sign of this with guys like Paton, Phillips, Coffield etc

Gresham obviously has it in spades.

I remember Harvey wasn't all that fast, but he gave himself so much time with his incredible borking ability... the reason the current midfielders continuously bomb it into the 50, is because they don't have evading skills, and thus are constantly under siege, with no time to even look up.

[Ghost Like]

Those are amazing skills and certainly separate the wheat from the chaff. I've never seen a premiership team that's had 22 of them. In terms of current players delivering the ball into our forward 50, it is not Paton, Coffield or Phillips that are our chief offenders. In fact, Paton has shown signs of being one of our better distributors and decision makers. Coffield also tries hard not to waste it.

You are correct however, we desperately need some of that genuine A grade footballers of the ilk you mentioned. All of a sudden the pressure lessens on those starting their careers rather than the unrealistic expectations of supporters and what seems, the coach.

[magnifisaint]

The problem with our coach is that we dont have the system in place to score. He's had 6 years to fix this and I dont see much being done to rectify it.

[stkfc1]

The problem with our coach is that we dont have the system in place to score. He's had 6 years to fix this and I dont see much being done to rectify it.

Spot on. Agree with other posters that if AR had a a few more A graders, he'd have a few more wins on the board. Who knows, we may not even be having this discussion. The facts remains though, he hasn't been able to address the most simple flaws of our gameplan with our current crop of players. The lack of synergy and constant 'bomb long' strategy along with the ridiculous inaccurate goal kicking. These are things that are supposed to be fixed in coaching. Drills, extra goal kicking practice etc You work on your weakness. Yet after 6 years and not much has changed. That lies at the feet of the coach.

[suss]

Just read this about playing injured players:

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2019-06-02/i-w ... kie-ordeal

I find this unbelievable. Playing a guy so injured his direct opponent asks him at quarter time what his problem is.

He just must go. It’s beyond a joke.

And I can’t see the benefit of waiting until the end of the year - two clubs will have a jump on us and we’ll be left in the same position we were in when we sacked Watters.

[skeptic]

Just read this about playing injured players:

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2019-06-02/i-w ... kie-ordeal

I find this unbelievable. Playing a guy so injured his direct opponent asks him at quarter time what his problem is.

He just must go. It’s beyond a joke.

And I can’t see the benefit of waiting until the end of the year - two clubs will have a jump on us and we’ll be left in the same position we were in when we sacked Watters.

No argument but are you surprised?
He played an obviously hampered Weller for 16-17 straight weeks despite very average returns

Played a majorly injured Longer in rd2 last year and he hobbled off in the 3/4

Apparently Newnes was injured for most of last year

About the most consistent hallmark of Richo’s coaching tenure is his preference for his injured favourites ahead of those pushing for opportunity

[suss]

Just read this about playing injured players:

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2019-06-02/i-w ... kie-ordeal

I find this unbelievable. Playing a guy so injured his direct opponent asks him at quarter time what his problem is.

He just must go. It’s beyond a joke.

And I can’t see the benefit of waiting until the end of the year - two clubs will have a jump on us and we’ll be left in the same position we were in when we sacked Watters.

No argument but are you surprised?
He played an obviously hampered Weller for 16-17 straight weeks despite very average returns

Played a majorly injured Longer in rd2 last year and he hobbled off in the 3/4

Apparently Newnes was injured for most of last year

About the most consistent hallmark of Richo’s coaching tenure is his preference for his injured favourites ahead of those pushing for opportunity

I know he’s had a habit of playing injured players but this is next level. I’d get rid of the doctors too if they think this s*** is okay.

[WellardSaint]

Just read this about playing injured players:

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2019-06-02/i-w ... kie-ordeal

I find this unbelievable. Playing a guy so injured his direct opponent asks him at quarter time what his problem is.

He just must go. It’s beyond a joke.

And I can’t see the benefit of waiting until the end of the year - two clubs will have a jump on us and we’ll be left in the same position we were in when we sacked Watters.

RIcho plays guys who are injured and cannot compete and do 2nd efforts, like Weller all last year,
and Newnes, who had a knee issue in early 2018 preseason, and was struggling.
Keeps playing his favourites, while resting other guys who are "managed" which I think
means they are either a little bit sore or he thinks they need a break to avoid burn-out?

This sort of insanity can't be good for team morale, for the younger players like White
who bust a boiler to get a chance, but they are denied a senior gig
and can see guys like Newnes and Bruce getting injections and talking to the doctors at the club,
and are on restricted training like just running laps- White would be thinking
"I train my backside off, I get great feedback from Hammill, but I'm still at the Zebs
playing on second rate grounds with horrible conditions,
while these other jokers are injured and shouldn't be playing!"

[Saintmatt]

Just read this about playing injured players:

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2019-06-02/i-w ... kie-ordeal

I find this unbelievable. Playing a guy so injured his direct opponent asks him at quarter time what his problem is.

He just must go. It’s beyond a joke.

And I can’t see the benefit of waiting until the end of the year - two clubs will have a jump on us and we’ll be left in the same position we were in when we sacked Watters.

I read this when it came out the other day and was so angry. That complete fvckwit Cho gave the poor bastard a fitness test on the ground before the Adelaide game knowing this.

So, the supporters jump on Bruce’s back about his poor performance not knowing he was in the same boat as Geary meanwhile, the Dribbler later puts his hand up for picking him. Classic amateur hour from the Saints

What? FFS Cho. Just go. Get on your bike and do us all a favour you boring cliche ridden bell-end.

[Joffa Burns]

Lyon and Richo are interesting if contrasting case studies in the world of coaching. Lyon seems to have flexible moral principles and no real altruistic affection for his players (plenty of examples, a coaching sociopath perhaps) - he is ruthless in fact and unapologetic with it. He had an excellent apprenticeship under Roos and is from the defensive well drilled school of thought. He has had two excellent groups from the Fremantle and St Kilda clubs with out and out champions in both sides. He has not been able to convert the best teams in a given year into a premier - close doesn't pay. Of course he should have got close, his teams should have won two or three. Strong mind, technical to the Nth degree game plan, mentally taxing on the players - but they are well paid. Richo - unspectacular apprenticeship, not a good list, seems a nice guy from reports; Geary intervention and concern for Paddy seems to show he does genuinely care for players (at least some) but has not been able to craft an efficient style to match his playing group's attributes and seems to be bloody minded in the face of the proven failure of some of his core principles, e.g. manic pressure, forwards up the ground, inexperienced players to earn their right to an AFL game, but without showing a clear credible path for that, does not seem have used the influence that comes with the head coach position to steer the team towards excellent recruiting (improvements in that regard are in the Lethlean era). Richo is certainly risk averse so maximising the potential of players by experimentation is a non starter. Lack of success over multiple years rationalised by reference to the vagaries of fate that actually impact every club. Fans probably never get excited going to a game to see what unexpected tactic Richo might employ to exploit an opposition. Whatever his strengths Richo has proven he is not the coach that can take our club to a winning season; maybe no one could have, but like Excalibur in the stone, you get a chance then you move on. The Lyon bridge has been burned and possibly a very good thing. He has built quite a myth around him as a master coach - but not sure it stands up to serious scrutiny.

Fantastic summation, labeling Rich risk adverse is an interesting comment and one that would be hard to argue.

You write some of the better if not best posts on this site, but could you please, please, please start using paragraphs as I find your format daunting to read.

[BarryGrogan]

Get on your bike and do us all a favour you boring cliche ridden bell-end.

Extra points for 'bell end'.

Viz?

[samuraisaint]

Just read this about playing injured players:

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2019-06-02/i-w ... kie-ordeal

I find this unbelievable. Playing a guy so injured his direct opponent asks him at quarter time what his problem is.

He just must go. It’s beyond a joke.

And I can’t see the benefit of waiting until the end of the year - two clubs will have a jump on us and we’ll be left in the same position we were in when we sacked Watters.

RIcho plays guys who are injured and cannot compete and do 2nd efforts, like Weller all last year,
and Newnes, who had a knee issue in early 2018 preseason, and was struggling.
Keeps playing his favourites, while resting other guys who are "managed" which I think
means they are either a little bit sore or he thinks they need a break to avoid burn-out?

This sort of insanity can't be good for team morale, for the younger players like White
who bust a boiler to get a chance, but they are denied a senior gig
and can see guys like Newnes and Bruce getting injections and talking to the doctors at the club,
and are on restricted training like just running laps- White would be thinking
"I train my backside off, I get great feedback from Hammill, but I'm still at the Zebs
playing on second rate grounds with horrible conditions,
while these other jokers are injured and shouldn't be playing!"

I think there's a lot of truth in what you're saying here.
So, Bruce has been playing injured too. He's been playing sore since the Melbourne match, which explains a lot.
Hind and White really need to come in this week, and Clark and Coffield need to stay in. We are playing the Suns in Townsville who are in the same situation as us and it is at a neutral venue thank heavens, so an opportunity for the young guys to get a bit of confidence back.
Hannebury and King not ready.

[samoht]

I notice there’s been some posts on Lyon and comparisons made with him.

Lyon was a 19-0 coach and a 0-10 coach, depending on the strength of the list.
Freo’s recruiting has turned their fortunes around recently with the addition of ... Hill, Hogan, Matera etc..

It really is all about recruiting .. the sooner we realise this the better.

This is the area we need to get right .. and once we do, everything else will start falling into place - we won’t keep sacking our coaches one after the other, as if it’s always their fault.
It can’t always be their fault .. and it isn’t.

Our biggest issue is we always think the coach is the issue!

Replace Richo if we must .. but we need to get our recruiting right, above all.

[BarryGrogan]

I notice there’s been some posts on Lyon and comparisons made with him.

Lyon was a 19-0 coach and a 0-10 coach, depending on the strength of the list.
Freo’s recruiting has turned their fortunes around recently with the addition of ... Hill, Hogan, Matera etc..

It really is all about recruiting .. the sooner we realise this the better.

This is the area we need to get right .. and once we do, everything else will start falling into place - we won’t keep sacking our coaches one after the other.

Two things:

Lyon was 19-0 when he had his team playing a style that suited his list, and the comp hadnt worked out how to combat it.

He was 0-10 when he lost key players, which meant the game style no longer aligned with the players at his disposal - and the comp had worked out his style.

Now he's back to playing a style that compliments his list, and average players look like world beaters, and they're winning games.

So frankly, you're completely full of s***.


Secondly, giving a coach 6 years to achieve something is hardly "sacking our coaches one after the other".

So that's just complete rubbish.

<1 day ban for commenting negatively on another poster >

[samoht]

Two things:

Lyon was 19-0 when he had his team playing a style that suited his list, and the comp hadnt worked out how to combat it.

He was 0-10 when he lost key players, which meant the game style no longer aligned with the players at his disposal - and the comp had worked out his style.

Now he's back to playing a style that compliments his list, and average players look like world beaters, and they're winning games.

So frankly, you're completely full of s***.


Secondly, giving a coach 6 years to achieve something is hardly "sacking our coaches one after the other".

So that's just complete rubbish.

(You don’t need to resort to personal swipes, btw).

Hogan, Hill and Matera , etc.. have complemented Freo’s list.
Their recruiting .. plus Brayshaw, Cerra, etc.. has turned things around for them.
Credit where it’s due.
They already had stars like Fyfe, Mundy and Walters.
We have sacked 12 coaches in a row since the mid 70s .. and Lyon jumped ship before his turn came - he saw the writing on the wall, when we started to lose as many as we won in 2011.
Other teams were recruiting better than we were during Lyon’s years with us (and since).

It comes back to recruiting! That’s been our biggest issue.
Game styles/plans only work when you have a list that’s skilled enough and talented enough to execute them.

We have the weakest midfield .. yet The Hawks and the Demons are going after Coniglio, while we twiddle our thumbs. This is the issue (and it has been an ongoing one)!

[Life Long Saint]

It's funny all this talk about the list...
The Bulldogs list wasn't that great in 2016.
They were committed and, generally, skillful.

But they didn't have too many genuine A-graders. And were nowhere near the best list that year. They only finished 7th after H&A.

Stringer had the talent but he strayed late in the season and didn't really contribute much. Boyd had the game of his life and should have won the NS Medal.
JJ would fit well in our team as he butchers the ball with the best of them.
But the rest were not elite by any stretch of the imagination.
But they had good foot and hand skills across the board. And that was the difference.

[stkfc1]

I notice there’s been some posts on Lyon and comparisons made with him.

Lyon was a 19-0 coach and a 0-10 coach, depending on the strength of the list.
Freo’s recruiting has turned their fortunes around recently with the addition of ... Hill, Hogan, Matera etc..

It really is all about recruiting .. the sooner we realise this the better.



This is the area we need to get right .. and once we do, everything else will start falling into place - we won’t keep sacking our coaches one after the other.

Two things:

Lyon was 19-0 when he had his team playing a style that suited his list, and the comp hadnt worked out how to combat it.

He was 0-10 when he lost key players, which meant the game style no longer aligned with the players at his disposal - and the comp had worked out his style.

Now he's back to playing a style that compliments his list, and average players look like world beaters, and they're winning games.

So frankly, you're completely full of s***.


Secondly, giving a coach 6 years to achieve something is hardly "sacking our coaches one after the other".

So that's just complete rubbish.

So frankly, you're completely full of s***.


This is exactly the kind of posts ruining this forum and stops people from posting. Could have just said I disagree with what your saying but turns it into personal insults. Why? This is such an immature thing to do. Totally unnecessary. Grow up!! This is the stuff that moderators need to ban folks on. Everyone has the right to their opinion on a forum. You have to right to disagree. Be repectful about it.
Barry Grogan ahould be banned and cant come back until he posts a written apology. Maybe if we start holding some of these idiots to account we may start getting better content on this forum.

[spert]

If you reckon coaching doesn't make a difference, then you haven't played footy. Over the years I've seen many clubs in various comps change coach and started winning more games with the same list. Sure any A grade player is desirable, but it's a team sport, not an individual sport- and top teams win finals, not a couple of stars who may or may not have a good day.

[samoht]

If you reckon coaching doesn't make a difference, then you haven't played footy. Over the years I've seen many clubs in various comps change coach and started winning more games with the same list. Sure any A grade player is desirable, but it's a team sport, not an individual sport- and top teams win finals, not a couple of stars who may or may not have a good day.

I didn’t say that .. but sacking coaches seems to be our go to.
And they can’t always be at fault.

Of the last 13 times we’ve replaced our coach, hoping to improve our w/l ... we actually went backwards 9 times.
So it didn’t work out for us on most occasions ... and there must be something else at play- recruiting?

[skeptic]

If you reckon coaching doesn't make a difference, then you haven't played footy. Over the years I've seen many clubs in various comps change coach and started winning more games with the same list. Sure any A grade player is desirable, but it's a team sport, not an individual sport- and top teams win finals, not a couple of stars who may or may not have a good day.

100% agreed.

Sometimes the difference between a guy like Dunstan looking average and looking great is the type of player you put around him. Play a midfield of Dunstan, Armo, Steele, Ross...
Guess whose lack of speed and average disposal stands out more whilst his inside game is diminished.

Midfield has been a bit more versatile this season and Luke actually looks like a decent player as a result.

[BarryGrogan]

This is exactly the kind of posts ruining this forum and stops people from posting. Could have just said I disagree with what your saying but turns it into personal insults. Why? This is such an immature thing to do. Totally unnecessary. Grow up!! This is the stuff that moderators need to ban folks on. Everyone has the right to their opinion on a forum. You have to right to disagree. Be repectful about it.
Barry Grogan ahould be banned and cant come back until he posts a written apology. Maybe if we start holding some of these idiots to account we may start getting better content on this forum.

Excuse me?

How can you banned for being personal with a spambot?

I can count over 50 posts wurh the exact same rubbish from the same poster.

It's straight up spam.

Even when I've seen that bot be corrected in blatant lies, the bot continues with the spam.

"We don't try to recruit gun midfielders".

Lie.

When pulled up on that lie, the bot twists it that trying isnt good enough.

Now the bot is saying that Hawthorn being 'into' Coniglio is good enough. Samoht must be a spambot. There's no other explanation for blatant lies and nonsense that has been repeated adnauseum in thread after thread after thread.

It derails them constantly, and is nothing more than spam.

When asked to cease with the spam, the bot stated tbst it wouldn't until people get it.

That is the definition of spam.


So please, if you think someone telling a robot account that it's full of s*** ruins forums, after that bot has spammed the forum with over 50 posts of the exact same thing - you're mad.