LENNY HAYES OR SAM MITCHELL

[Aussie Jonestown]

Good discussion.

One thing that jumps out at me is our last 2 coaches, despite their experience, don’t seem to be good leaders.
Hayes is someone who built a career around doing everything possible in terms of preparation to get ready... read Mission’s book, he was meticulous in everything he did...
and he was a Captain, spiritual leader and led from the front.

Can’t speak to Mitchell, but I like Lenny as a candidate for those reasons.

I’d take a punt on a guy that has the qualities, the work rate, leadership, professionalism etc and put the experience around him

Agree 100%

Sam Mitchell ticks all the boxes Lenny Hayes does and then sum, given he is a four times premiership player with Alistair Clarkson as his coach, assistant coach of a premiership team last year and now back at Hawthorn as an assistant to Clarkson.

[Crossy66]

I dont understand the strong push for Sam Mitchell or Lenny Hayes. Both are untried and unproven and the reality is the average punter really doesnt know how good they are.
I certainly agree that if they can coach and lead as they played then by all means, but there's more to a senior coaching gig than that.
I would much prefer someone who has a body of work as a senior coach that can be properly evaluated, given where I think we are at the moment. Also would be good if it was a coach that elite FA's wanted to play under. Of the current crop leaving out the ungettables such as Clarko and Buckley, Lyon and Bevo would be worth consideration.

I believe Sam Mitchell would be the best coaching selection since Alan Jeans if the club has the smarts to appoint him.
You mention you'd prefer someone with a body of work as a senior coach and you mentioned Luke Beveridge.
I'd be very happy with Luke Beveridge but I don't think the bulldogs would allow this.

Luke Beveridge was an unproven AFL coach when appointed as a senior coach and won a premiership in his second season.
What if the Western Bulldogs administration took your view at the time and reasoned that Beveridge is unproven at AFL level and we need a senior coach with previous experience.
I highly doubt they would have won the premiership in 2016.

Sam Mitchell played a role in West Coast winning the premiership last year.
Why do you think a professionally run club like Hawthorn were keen to have him back in their ranks?
Hawthorn see Sam Mitchell as a successor to Alistair Clarkson.

I see a bit of Trevor Barker in Sam Mitchell and he obviously has footy smarts of his own, Clarkson's IP and natural leadership and motivational qualities.

You are right that every coach was once unproven. However a proven coach is.. well.. a proven coach and therefore less risk or atleast a known quantity.
I dont know how close you are to Sam Mitchell, but if you are like most people, you make observations from a distance and we have no real knowledge as to whether he will be the next Alan Jeans or whther Hawthorn have earmarked him as Clarkos replacement. I suggest Hawks got him back because he is a good assistant.

I am not saying your gut feel on Mitchell is wrong, just simply saying that a current senior coach is less of a risk and I think our list is at a point where a proven senior coach can take it to the next level. Clarko or Buckley would be ideal, but Bevo or Lyon could be good. Also dont think our club could handle a coaching failure at this moment in time.

Good discussion.

One thing that jumps out at me is our last 2 coaches, despite their experience, don’t seem to be good leaders.
Hayes is someone who built a career around doing everything possible in terms of preparation to get ready... read Mission’s book, he was meticulous in everything he did...
and he was a Captain, spiritual leader and led from the front.

Can’t speak to Mitchell, but I like Lenny as a candidate for those reasons.

I’d take a punt on a guy that has the qualities, the work rate, leadership, professionalism etc and put the experience around him

See thats the issue for me. I dont think we can "take a punt", I dont think the membership base is able to stand another tumultuous period, particularly around a coach.
Lenny is in my top few all time favorites, but every assistant that steps up takes a couple of years to settle into the role, whereas an experienced guy like Lyon, Bevo etc, would hit the ground running

[Scollop]

Ratts, Lade and Playfair have been very good and I hope they stay for years to come.

Ratts and Mitchell should also be good lures for a bloke who is probably hanging them up at the end of this year and would be a terrific person to have in our club as mentor and assistant caoch - Jarryd Roughead

[ss1986]

To be honest, I'd have given Roughead a one-year deal with an agreement to become Asst Coach this year, the same way WCE did with Mitchell. Hawthorn would have let him go anyway, and he would've been brilliant for setting up the structure in our forward line for a year.

[ss1986]

Anyway - the overwhelming theme is that we need a refresh. I'm glad the convo has started and it seems most are thinking the same way now.

[Aussie Jonestown]

See thats the issue for me. I dont think we can "take a punt", I dont think the membership base is able to stand another tumultuous period, particularly around a coach.
Lenny is in my top few all time favorites, but every assistant that steps up takes a couple of years to settle into the role, whereas an experienced guy like Lyon, Bevo etc, would hit the ground running

By your own admission you named Michael Voss and Brett Ratten as options based on the fact they have coached previously.
Both were sacked.
Surely they'd be a punt also
The best thing Ratten has going for him is he was an assistant under Clarkson.

Sam Mitchell was a player in four premierships and is now an assistant under Clarkson.
Mitchell was also an assistant coach in last years premiership team and also led some 3/4 time speeches that helped West Coast win vital games of football resulting in their premiership win.
The West Coast players were lavish in their praise for his motivational and tactical prowess.

There are no guarantee's with anything... the two previously SACKED coaches you mentioned as better options based solely on the fact they have coached before is a very flimsy argument.

Ross Lyon is not going to happen.
As much as I liked some of the things he did while at St.kilda that ship has sailed and it would be a mistake to revisit it.

I fear Lethlean driving the appointment of his mate Brad Scott with his special brand of snake oil.
Massive punt that one.

I don't see Sam Mitchell as a punt.
I see Sam Mitchell as the stand out selection.
The fact that Sam Mitchell was a St.kilda supporter as a kid is a nice extra bit of fluff for the marketing department.

[Aussie Jonestown]

I think Sam Mitchell would be an inspired choice. As much as I love Lenny, I feel like he isn't sufficiently removed from the playing group/club employees who may need to be hit fair and square between the eyes about where we are and how we are going - Lenny can't hang his hat on 4 flags the way Mitchell can. I don't think that makes Mitchell better qualified per se, but I think it gives him more clout to demand change.

I agree.

I think Sam Mitchell is ready right now.

[Crossy66]

See thats the issue for me. I dont think we can "take a punt", I dont think the membership base is able to stand another tumultuous period, particularly around a coach.
Lenny is in my top few all time favorites, but every assistant that steps up takes a couple of years to settle into the role, whereas an experienced guy like Lyon, Bevo etc, would hit the ground running

By your own admission you named Michael Voss and Brett Ratten as options based on the fact they have coached previously.
Both were sacked.
Surely they'd be a punt also
The best thing Ratten has going for him is he was an assistant under Clarkson.

Sam Mitchell was a player in four premierships and is now an assistant under Clarkson.
Mitchell was also an assistant coach in last years premiership team and also led some 3/4 time speeches that helped West Coast win vital games of football resulting in their premiership win.
The West Coast players were lavish in their praise for his motivational and tactical prowess.

There are no guarantee's with anything... the two previously SACKED coaches you mentioned as better options based solely on the fact they have coached before is a very flimsy argument.

Ross Lyon is not going to happen.
As much as I liked some of the things he did while at St.kilda that ship has sailed and it would be a mistake to revisit it.

I fear Lethlean driving the appointment of his mate Brad Scott with his special brand of snake oil.
Massive punt that one.

I don't see Sam Mitchell as a punt.
I see Sam Mitchell as the stand out selection.
The fact that Sam Mitchell was a St.kilda supporter as a kid is a nice extra bit of fluff for the marketing department.

to reiterate, I through up Ratten and Voss as a fall back if we couldnt get a current coach.
I always felt Ratten was hard done bye at Carlton as proved by the lack of success with Malthouse. I think he has more track record and experience than say a Mitchell.
BTTW, I am not saying Mitchell would be bad, just the risk increases with the more unknowns.
Big difference being an assistant than being the main man

[skeptic]

I dont understand the strong push for Sam Mitchell or Lenny Hayes. Both are untried and unproven and the reality is the average punter really doesnt know how good they are.
I certainly agree that if they can coach and lead as they played then by all means, but there's more to a senior coaching gig than that.
I would much prefer someone who has a body of work as a senior coach that can be properly evaluated, given where I think we are at the moment. Also would be good if it was a coach that elite FA's wanted to play under. Of the current crop leaving out the ungettables such as Clarko and Buckley, Lyon and Bevo would be worth consideration.

I believe Sam Mitchell would be the best coaching selection since Alan Jeans if the club has the smarts to appoint him.
You mention you'd prefer someone with a body of work as a senior coach and you mentioned Luke Beveridge.
I'd be very happy with Luke Beveridge but I don't think the bulldogs would allow this.

Luke Beveridge was an unproven AFL coach when appointed as a senior coach and won a premiership in his second season.
What if the Western Bulldogs administration took your view at the time and reasoned that Beveridge is unproven at AFL level and we need a senior coach with previous experience.
I highly doubt they would have won the premiership in 2016.

Sam Mitchell played a role in West Coast winning the premiership last year.
Why do you think a professionally run club like Hawthorn were keen to have him back in their ranks?
Hawthorn see Sam Mitchell as a successor to Alistair Clarkson.

I see a bit of Trevor Barker in Sam Mitchell and he obviously has footy smarts of his own, Clarkson's IP and natural leadership and motivational qualities.

You are right that every coach was once unproven. However a proven coach is.. well.. a proven coach and therefore less risk or atleast a known quantity.
I dont know how close you are to Sam Mitchell, but if you are like most people, you make observations from a distance and we have no real knowledge as to whether he will be the next Alan Jeans or whther Hawthorn have earmarked him as Clarkos replacement. I suggest Hawks got him back because he is a good assistant.

I am not saying your gut feel on Mitchell is wrong, just simply saying that a current senior coach is less of a risk and I think our list is at a point where a proven senior coach can take it to the next level. Clarko or Buckley would be ideal, but Bevo or Lyon could be good. Also dont think our club could handle a coaching failure at this moment in time.

Good discussion.

One thing that jumps out at me is our last 2 coaches, despite their experience, don’t seem to be good leaders.
Hayes is someone who built a career around doing everything possible in terms of preparation to get ready... read Mission’s book, he was meticulous in everything he did...
and he was a Captain, spiritual leader and led from the front.

Can’t speak to Mitchell, but I like Lenny as a candidate for those reasons.

I’d take a punt on a guy that has the qualities, the work rate, leadership, professionalism etc and put the experience around him

See thats the issue for me. I dont think we can "take a punt", I dont think the membership base is able to stand another tumultuous period, particularly around a coach.
Lenny is in my top few all time favorites, but every assistant that steps up takes a couple of years to settle into the role, whereas an experienced guy like Lyon, Bevo etc, would hit the ground running

But whose not a punt?
Alistair Clarkson? Does he still have it? Can he reinvent the wheel again? Can he do it at a club with less resources?

We thought this about Blight once.

Don’t get me wrong... I take Clarkson in a heartbeat but he’s not risk free either

[Crossy66]

I dont understand the strong push for Sam Mitchell or Lenny Hayes. Both are untried and unproven and the reality is the average punter really doesnt know how good they are.
I certainly agree that if they can coach and lead as they played then by all means, but there's more to a senior coaching gig than that.
I would much prefer someone who has a body of work as a senior coach that can be properly evaluated, given where I think we are at the moment. Also would be good if it was a coach that elite FA's wanted to play under. Of the current crop leaving out the ungettables such as Clarko and Buckley, Lyon and Bevo would be worth consideration.

I believe Sam Mitchell would be the best coaching selection since Alan Jeans if the club has the smarts to appoint him.
You mention you'd prefer someone with a body of work as a senior coach and you mentioned Luke Beveridge.
I'd be very happy with Luke Beveridge but I don't think the bulldogs would allow this.

Luke Beveridge was an unproven AFL coach when appointed as a senior coach and won a premiership in his second season.
What if the Western Bulldogs administration took your view at the time and reasoned that Beveridge is unproven at AFL level and we need a senior coach with previous experience.
I highly doubt they would have won the premiership in 2016.

Sam Mitchell played a role in West Coast winning the premiership last year.
Why do you think a professionally run club like Hawthorn were keen to have him back in their ranks?
Hawthorn see Sam Mitchell as a successor to Alistair Clarkson.

I see a bit of Trevor Barker in Sam Mitchell and he obviously has footy smarts of his own, Clarkson's IP and natural leadership and motivational qualities.

You are right that every coach was once unproven. However a proven coach is.. well.. a proven coach and therefore less risk or atleast a known quantity.
I dont know how close you are to Sam Mitchell, but if you are like most people, you make observations from a distance and we have no real knowledge as to whether he will be the next Alan Jeans or whther Hawthorn have earmarked him as Clarkos replacement. I suggest Hawks got him back because he is a good assistant.

I am not saying your gut feel on Mitchell is wrong, just simply saying that a current senior coach is less of a risk and I think our list is at a point where a proven senior coach can take it to the next level. Clarko or Buckley would be ideal, but Bevo or Lyon could be good. Also dont think our club could handle a coaching failure at this moment in time.

Good discussion.

One thing that jumps out at me is our last 2 coaches, despite their experience, don’t seem to be good leaders.
Hayes is someone who built a career around doing everything possible in terms of preparation to get ready... read Mission’s book, he was meticulous in everything he did...
and he was a Captain, spiritual leader and led from the front.

Can’t speak to Mitchell, but I like Lenny as a candidate for those reasons.

I’d take a punt on a guy that has the qualities, the work rate, leadership, professionalism etc and put the experience around him

See thats the issue for me. I dont think we can "take a punt", I dont think the membership base is able to stand another tumultuous period, particularly around a coach.
Lenny is in my top few all time favorites, but every assistant that steps up takes a couple of years to settle into the role, whereas an experienced guy like Lyon, Bevo etc, would hit the ground running

But whose not a punt?
Alistair Clarkson? Does he still have it? Can he reinvent the wheel again? Can he do it at a club with less resources?

We thought this about Blight once.

Don’t get me wrong... I take Clarkson in a heartbeat but he’s not risk free either

An untried coach is a higher risk than a currently succesful one .
All decisions have an element of risk, just some decisions more riskier than others.

[Jacks Back]

Shhhh!! Don't tell the roos or blues that Mitchell is available.

[twirlyhair]

I dont understand the strong push for Sam Mitchell or Lenny Hayes. Both are untried and unproven and the reality is the average punter really doesnt know how good they are.
I certainly agree that if they can coach and lead as they played then by all means, but there's more to a senior coaching gig than that.
I would much prefer someone who has a body of work as a senior coach that can be properly evaluated, given where I think we are at the moment. Also would be good if it was a coach that elite FA's wanted to play under. Of the current crop leaving out the ungettables such as Clarko and Buckley, Lyon and Bevo would be worth consideration.

I believe Sam Mitchell would be the best coaching selection since Alan Jeans if the club has the smarts to appoint him.
You mention you'd prefer someone with a body of work as a senior coach and you mentioned Luke Beveridge.
I'd be very happy with Luke Beveridge but I don't think the bulldogs would allow this.

Luke Beveridge was an unproven AFL coach when appointed as a senior coach and won a premiership in his second season.
What if the Western Bulldogs administration took your view at the time and reasoned that Beveridge is unproven at AFL level and we need a senior coach with previous experience.
I highly doubt they would have won the premiership in 2016.

Sam Mitchell played a role in West Coast winning the premiership last year.
Why do you think a professionally run club like Hawthorn were keen to have him back in their ranks?
Hawthorn see Sam Mitchell as a successor to Alistair Clarkson.

I see a bit of Trevor Barker in Sam Mitchell and he obviously has footy smarts of his own, Clarkson's IP and natural leadership and motivational qualities.

You are right that every coach was once unproven. However a proven coach is.. well.. a proven coach and therefore less risk or atleast a known quantity.
I dont know how close you are to Sam Mitchell, but if you are like most people, you make observations from a distance and we have no real knowledge as to whether he will be the next Alan Jeans or whther Hawthorn have earmarked him as Clarkos replacement. I suggest Hawks got him back because he is a good assistant.

I am not saying your gut feel on Mitchell is wrong, just simply saying that a current senior coach is less of a risk and I think our list is at a point where a proven senior coach can take it to the next level. Clarko or Buckley would be ideal, but Bevo or Lyon could be good. Also dont think our club could handle a coaching failure at this moment in time.

Interestingly, premiership coaches at a second club are less likely to be successful as a first time coach.

[Aussie Jonestown]

Lenny is in my top few all time favorites, but every assistant that steps up takes a couple of years to settle into the role, whereas an experienced guy like Lyon, Bevo etc, would hit the ground running

The Ross Lyon ship has sailed and should not be revisited.

If there is any way of getting Luke Beveridge from the Western Bulldogs I would be very happy with this.

I'd probably have Luke Beveridge as my number one option.
It's the logistics of dealing with the fact he is already coaching another AFL club that hinders this possibility.

My list of candidates I would want to talk with to be the next senior coach would be as follows

Current senior coaches

Luke Beveridge
Alistair Clarkson

Current assistant coaches

Sam Mitchell
Lenny Hayes
Robert Harvey

[minneapolis]

Sam Mitchell is part of a multi-year succession plan at Hawthorn.

No chance for us. Sorry.

[satchmo]

Sam Mitchell is part of a multi-year succession plan at Hawthorn.

No chance for us. Sorry.

I'm guessing they will ramp up that transition and clarkson will be our man.

[Aussie Jonestown]

Sam Mitchell is part of a multi-year succession plan at Hawthorn.

No chance for us. Sorry.

I'm guessing they will ramp up that transition and clarkson will be our man.

Precisely why we should target Sam Mitchell.
It might force Hawthorn's hand and if Sam Mitchell is off limits then it could possibly make Alistair Clarkson available.

[axcellence]

Yes to Sam Mitchell or Clarkson.
Lenny to coach Sydney
Longmire to North
Brad Scott to Carlton