Match thread, Port in Shanghai

[st.byron]

BarryGrogan...

Over the last 10-12 years, we could have gone after and landed/ poached a number of quality A grade big fish.

Are we talking to Coniglio right now? The Hawks are - even though our bottom ranked midfield needs him more.

Can you see the logic of 6 ruckmen on $200,000 each, 6 inside midfielders on $300,000 each and 10 hb flankers on $200,000 each?

You’re only ever going to play 1 ruckman, 2 inside midfielders and 2 half back flankers - why not concentrate on getting A grade quality in each case?
We prefer C grade quantity ... and wasting our salary cap on surplus capacity.

Quality actually costs less than quantity.
The successful teams know this.

Our recruiting needs to sharpen up ... we have a lot of catching up to do.

My understanding is that we've tried hard to get Martin, Fyfe, Kelly, O'Meara and Shiel that we know of.

We went after Carlisle and Hannebury.


The problem is, we don't play 'block busters', so guys like Treloar and Shiel say no.
We dont have any sort of 'go home' advantage, so guys like Ablett and Dangerfield arent interested.
We don't get a salary cap advantage worth mentioning due to the 15% increase introduced two years back.
We aren't a contender, so guys like Fyfe and Kelly are better off staying put.

And, we have a plodder of a coach that has shown zero evidence of nurturing a player's talent - so about 10 clubs have an advantage over us in that regard.

We try to get the big guns. But we have pretty close to f*** all chance of cutting the lunch of almost every other club.


Wirh Dew at the Gold Coast, I'd imagine most of their young guys would stay there rather than play under Richo.

I don’t think our coach (whoever it may be) is the problem here.

You can only nurture/ develop average talent so far ... given, other teams are landing and honing A grade talent ... they don’t even need to do as much nurturing/developing, and will always have stronger lists.

From what you’re saying, we need to bottom right out?

If we can’t land healthy A grade talent at their prime, unlike the stronger teams, then we’ll need to purge out all our C graders ... and start again through the draft?

Teams that can also land the A graders are obviously going to have an advantage over us ... and our head coaches will always be at a disadvantage and operating under a degree of difficulty, and be on the back foot with weaker lists.

So our head coaches will always be victims of circumstances, as it’s not an even playing field.

It’s a fait accomplis?

No. I just think you're straight up wrong.


The players appear C Grade because of the coaching.

I seriously believe that a guy like the Bont or even Martin would appear average under Richo. His system is just so flawed, and does the exact opposite of creating an environment for footballers to flourish and realise their potential.

It stifles it.

Agree with this. The notion that all of our recruits are duds is ridiculous. They have no effective leadership. That is the nub of the issue.

[Scollop]

Last six matches points for : 68, 70, 70, 71, 69, 68. Truly Lyonesque.

Eleven games. 9 or 10 goals in nine of them.

The forward line needs a lot of work. Match after match we are not getting reward for effort. Plenty of inside 50s, usually plenty of scoring shots ... but under pressure and crowded.

Open it up FFS.

Richo is dreaming if he thinks those sorts of scores will get us into finals and shore up his employment prospects.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Carlisle, when he comes back, should be played mainly forward and giving Marshall a hand as second ruck.

Either that, or Battle goes forward when Carlisle gets back. We are a good key forward short in our structure. Membrey is more a half forward and quite frankly Bruce isn't a good key forward, just servicable.

We were smashed by 70 points (almost 12 goals) yet they only had 5 more shots on goal than us and that would have blown out late. That tells quite a story.

Bruce in the forward line....hmmm....that's a good idea

He has the runs on the board as a key forward and players who have proven they can get the job done are the least of our worries.

[Scollop]

Remember, the reason we got Hammil, Gehrig and Brett Voss was because we got Malcolm Blight first.
We need a high profile coach to help attract really good players.

How old is Mark Williams?

[Yorkeys]

To improve we need to sell potential recruits hope, enthusiasm and a vision. AR can sell none of that. I doubt he could explain their meaning. He can not motivate team performances in crunch, showcase events. We need a good charismatic coach and a cull of the deadwood. There is a good core of talent in the team that can flourish if its not destroyed by AR's joyless righteous culture. But boy there are a number that should just go so the auditions for the next finals side can commence asap.

[samoht]

We had a bad showing today - I wouldn't exactly call our players duds.

But, we've won 5 games - almost half our games now ... with the weakest midfield going around.

And in a lot of cases - we haven't recruited according to our needs over the last 10 or so years - and when we have, they have mostly been fringe players with average skills - not A graders.

But Roberton developed into a AA, Steele has developed well and credited our head coach for his breakout year, etc..

I think any coach will find our list a challenge - it's blue color at best (overall - relative to other teams).
We have to work hard to win games - given our kicking skills, etc..

And there are assistant coaches to help nurture/develop our midfield, our defence and our attack.
Our head coach doesn't do it all.

We are an AFL team.

But...
How do you turn C graders with average skills into elite A graders?
The Hawks and other successful sides land A graders - it's got to give teams like the Hawks an advantage.
They rely on their poach just as much as their coach (maybe even more so).

[Laurie]

Who is our forward coach?

[Sainter_Dad]

Who is our forward coach?

We have 2!

Humphrey B Bear and Barney the Dinosaur.

[samoht]

Who is our forward coach?

We have 2!

Humphrey B Bear and Barney the Dinosaur.

Dermie the dinosaur.


It's not only Alan ... Alan is only 1/10th of it. He's not a one man show.
There's 9 other assistant coaches - including 2 development coaches.

Alan Richardson - Senior Coach
As the 45th coach of St Kilda Football Club, Richardson was appointed to the helm after an extensive coaching background at five AFL clubs, VFL side Coburg and East Burwood in the Eastern Football League.

Brett Ratten - Senior Assistant Coach
Ratten has spent the past six years at Hawthorn as an assistant under Alastair Clarkson, after six years as Carlton senior coach from 2007-2012.

Danny Sexton - Director of Coaching
Danny Sexton has a wealth of football experience as a player and coach.

Brendon Lade - Senior Assistant Coach
The Port Adelaide premiership ruckman joins the Saints after an extensive coaching and playing career spanning more than two decades.

Henry Playfair - Senior Assistant Coach (Back Line)
After four years in offence, Playfair coached the Sydney defenders for two years, a role he will now perform at St Kilda in 2018.

Aaron Hamill - Senior Assistant Coach and Senior Coach of Sandringham Football Club
After 190 games as a player, former captain Hamill returned to the Saints in 2012.

Adam Skrobalak - Assistant Coach
Originally part-time, Skrobalak will step up his involvement through a full-time development role with St Kilda in 2019.

Ben McGlynn - Assistant Coach
McGlynn plays a pivotal role developing the Saints small forward fleet.

Jake Batchelor - Assistant Coach
After seven years and 84 senior games with Richmond, Batchelor joins the Saints as a development coach.

Robbie Chancellor - Opposition Strategy Coach
Chancellor leads St Kilda's opposition strategy and team defence.

[BarryGrogan]

I wouldn't exactly call our players duds.

But, we've won 5 games - almost half our games now ... with the weakest midfield going around.

I think any coach will find our list a challenge - it's blue color at best.

How do you turn C graders with average skills into elite A graders?
The Hawks land A graders - it's got to give teams like the Hawks an advantage.

Why would you play Ross as an 'offensive mid' when he can't kick?

Why would you play Geary as a receiving running back when he can't kick?

Why would you play McCartin as a leadup battering ram when he can't run, and it's illegal to cannon into packs with your elbows and forearms these days?

Why would you play McKenzie on the half back line when his marking is his best asset, and his decision making under pressure is his worst?


The list goes on. You will never turn anyone into something they're not - but you play to their stengths and hide their weaknesses.

That's how you turn good players into stars, and average players into good players.

Richo almost does the opposite.

Josh Battle is an example of a player with certain attributes being utilised properly. He's an incredible field kick, judges the play really well and is good overhead. Hes wasted in the F50 at this stage - but as a 3rd defender hes being utilised really well and is flourishing.

The problem we have, is that Richo's game plan doesnt compliment anyone's individual game.

[samoht]

And what are the 2 development coaches and all the other assistant coaches employed to do?
There's another 9 coaches there.

When you don't have the luxury of talent - and your recruiters can't land the established A grade big fish - you go with what you've got. You have to make do with that.

We've won almost half our games this year - with the weakest, and least-skilled midfield.
That's an achievement in itself.

Game plans work if you have the talent to make them work.
A more talented and skilled list will get theirs to work and will negate yours (and make it look like you don't have a good game plan - and that you have a poor coach) - that's how it is.

[BarryGrogan]

And what are the 2 development coaches and all the other assistant coaches employed to do?
There's another 9 coaches there.

When you don't have the luxury of talent - and your recruiters can't land the established A grade big fish - you go with what you've got. You have to make do with that.

We've won almost half our games this year - with the weakest, and least-skilled midfield.
That's an achievement in itself.

Game plans work if you have the talent to make them work.
A more talented and skilled list will get theirs to work and will negate yours (and make it look like you don't have a good game plan) - that's how it is.

The assistant coaches assist in the implementation of the senior coach's vision.

They teach the players to carry out what the head coach wants.

We've shuffled assistant coaches around for 5 years, and the game style is the same.

It's Richo's. All his.


Even when we win, against inferiir teams, we still look average and stumble through games with no fluency and efficiency.

When we play against teams with worse players than ours, and are allowed the luxury of playing the game on our terms - we still can't score and have no synergy between each line.

That proves that it's not a lack of talent. It's the system. Its the head coach's flawed theory on how football should be played.

[BarryGrogan]

Game plans work if you have the talent to make them work.
A more talented and skilled list will get theirs to work and will negate yours (and make it look like you don't have a good game plan - and that you have a poor coach) - that's how it is.

I totally disagree with the premise of this argument.

It's like a jockey on a horse.

A jockey can't make a horse run faster, but he/she can run the race to allow the horse to produce its best and to give it the best opportunity to win.

A good jockey will ride the horse to its strengths.

But as much as a jockey can't make a horse go faster - a bad jockey can cost a good horse the race against inferior horses very easily. If he/she has a flawed strategy that doesnt suit the horse or the race, the horse won't reach its potential.

The horse can be the best in the race, but the jockey csn make it look very ordinary.

[Crossy66]

Rubbish game today but on a positive note there are 7or 8 players to come into that team over the next few weeks.

Billings, savage, young and geary shouldnt have played, and I suspect a couple more not 100%.

[Josh Battle]

Game plans work if you have the talent to make them work.
A more talented and skilled list will get theirs to work and will negate yours (and make it look like you don't have a good game plan - and that you have a poor coach) - that's how it is.

I totally disagree with the premise of this argument.

It's like a jockey on a horse.

A jockey can't make a horse run faster, but he/she can run the race to allow the horse to produce its best and to give it the best opportunity to win.

A good jockey will ride the horse to its strengths.

But as much as a jockey can't make a horse go faster - a bad jockey can cost a good horse the race against inferior horses very easily. If he/she has a flawed strategy that doesnt suit the horse or the race, the horse won't reach its potential.

The horse can be the best in the race, but the jockey csn make it look very ordinary.

A good coach can instill belief in his players and get them executing under pressure

A good coach can instruct and provide tips on skills like goal kicking

A good coach makes sure there are consequences if his players do not follow team rules

A good coach can help a player with his set shots. Even a player as skillful as Paddy Dangerfield in his 11th or 12th year of football recently admitted to receiving advice from his senior coach in Chris Scott that helped him with his set shots at goal.

A good coach will create team rules and discipline that help provide best practice solutions.

If you make things simple for players they will learn faster and execute better.

A good coach doesn't let his players dictate where they will play on the field.

A good coach knows how to inspire, and motivate, and I believe ALL great coaches do it through being outstanding communicators. Richo is an average communicator and not good enough to perform the role of an AFL coach

[saintsRrising]

Amateur hour.

The club clearly went over ill prepared in holiday mode and the disaster that unfolded was entirely due to the unprofessional of the club in sll aspects of preparayipn and player management.

[saintsRrising]

Amateur hour.

The club clearly went over ill prepared in holiday mode and the disaster that unfolded was entirely due to the unprofessional conduct of the club in all aspects of preparation and player management.

[Devilhead]

Amateur hour.

The club clearly went over ill prepared in holiday mode and the disaster that unfolded was entirely due to the unprofessional of the club in sll aspects of preparayipn and player management.

Guess the same can be said about the Dogs in Perth .... Just went for a holiday

[Saint wagga]

I’m reading this book called ‘the fall and rise of gerlong’ Chronicling their history from 60’s to their three peat...it’s intetesting reading and sheds light in just how the machinations of a footy club work, how you need good people in important positions...hun head coach, sure...but also so much more! I’ve cone away thinking the ceo is super important, more than I thought, head of re recruiting, super important! Luck, important! But I get the feeling we are way off the mark in heaps of areas at the moment! And it doesn’t give me any joy to write that

[freely]

Geary injured.

Why rush him back?!

This the most valid question mark over the game. A lot of the other s*** things that happened were out of our control. But somebody made this decision on purpose. Why?

[samoht]

Even when we win, against inferiir teams, we still look average and stumble through games with no fluency and efficiency.

When we play against teams with worse players than ours, and are allowed the luxury of playing the game on our terms - we still can't score and have no synergy between each line.

That proves that it's not a lack of talent. It's the system. Its the head coach's flawed theory on how football should be played.

Who are the inferior teams?
We have the lowest ranked midfield! And that’s with Steven in it.

Despite having the lowest ranked midfield, we have still won nearly half our games this year.
We must have had an adequate amount of synergy then - when we won our 5 games.
We have probably overachieved. I am not even bringing up our injuries to key players.

Whoever our next coach is - I hope you agree that we will need to improve our recruiting -start targeting the quality players we need - we need Coniglio more than the Hawks do. This should be obvious.
We don’t need any more average half back flankers, any more average inside midfielders and more C grade ruckmen.
It’s quality targeted recruiting that we need ... that’s how you end up with quality!
We need to land quality A grade big fish ...and stop going after average list cloggers.

6 average midfielders probably use as much salary cap space as 2 star midfielders!
What’s the use of having 10 average half back flankers on your list when you only need 2?
We don’t need to recruit any more wasteful spare capacity .. we need to target and recruit quality from now on - have some bickies left over to do that.
It’s a must! We must start recruiting like the successful teams (the Hawks, etc..) have been doing.
There’s a lot of catching up to do.
It is not only about the coach - everyone wants to make it about the coach - but it’s probably more to do with the poach, in fact.
We need to step back and see what’s really going on, otherwise our procession of sacked coaches will just continue and we will be none the wiser - just further behind!
Since Alan Jeans, we’ve blamed and sacked 13 coaches in a row (and one left while the going was good) - it’s time we wake up to ourselves, and start looking for the real reasons!

[BarryGrogan]

Even when we win, against inferiir teams, we still look average and stumble through games with no fluency and efficiency.

When we play against teams with worse players than ours, and are allowed the luxury of playing the game on our terms - we still can't score and have no synergy between each line.

That proves that it's not a lack of talent. It's the system. Its the head coach's flawed theory on how football should be played.

Who are the inferior teams?
We have the lowest ranked midfield! And that’s with Steven in it.

Despite having the lowest ranked midfield, we have still won nearly half our games this year.
We must have had an adequate amount of synergy then - when we won our 5 games.
We have probably overachieved. I am not even bringing up our injuries to key players.

Whoever our next coach is - I hope you agree that we will need to improve our recruiting -start targeting the quality players we need - we need Coniglio more than the Hawks do. This should be obvious.
We don’t need any more average half back flankers, any more average inside midfielders and more C grade ruckmen.
It’s quality targeted recruiting that we need ... that’s how you end up with quality!
We need to land quality A grade big fish ...and stop going after average list cloggers.

6 average midfielders probably use as much salary cap space as 2 star midfielders!
What’s the use of having 10 average half back flankers on your list when you only need 2?
We don’t need to recruit any more wasteful spare capacity .. we need to target and recruit quality from now on - have some bickies left over to do that.
It’s a must! We must start recruiting like the successful teams (the Hawks, etc..) have been doing.
There’s a lot of catching up to do.
It is not only about the coach - everyone wants to make it about the coach - but it’s probably more to do with the poach, in fact.
We need to step back and see what’s really going on, otherwise our procession of sacked coaches will just continue and we will be none the wiser - just further behind!
Since Alan Jeans, we’ve blamed and sacked 13 coaches in a row (and one left while the going was good) - it’s time we wake up to ourselves, and start looking for the real reasons!

Are you a bot?

You just keep repatong the same thing every post.

I've already listed 5 midfielders that we tried to get, and I even left Gaff off that list - yet you continue to post this rubbish.

It's false. Stop repeating it.

[Yorkeys]

In other news: a Port half back flanker came off the interchange to kick three goals: same aggregate as Tim, Matty and Ben. Now that's what we mean when we talk defensive forward pressure. We had him covered, its their forwards kicking goals that unsettled us. Why didn't our defenders kick bags of 3. Makes it tough on the coaches - forwards did their job, come on defenders, more goals.

[samoht]

I keep repeating in the hope that it gets through, BarryGrogan - and to drown out the "it's all the coach's fault" cacophony/rubbish. (but it's my last post on this thread)

What difference does it make whether we have tried to recruit the 5 quality midfielders you mentioned .. it doesn't alter the fact that we've failed year after year (over the last 12 years) to recruit/poach/land quality A graders for whatever reason and have therefore not been able to improve our list quality in this way (whereas teams like the Hawks have).

Our coach - even with the help of his able assistants - can't just wave a magic wand and turn our C graders into stars with elite skills, and/or develop game plans so superior to those of the opposition coaches that would overcome our list deficiencies.

And just because they can't land the big fish, does this give our recruiters the right to keep adding more and more average half back flankers, average ruckmen, average smalls, and average inside midfielders until we burst at the seams and until we max out our salary cap on list cloggers ?

What's false, BarryGrogan? - we've sacked a dozen or so coaches in a row since Alan Jeans (and one left before they got the chop) and serially blamed them all! This is a fact.
We have the lowest ranked midfield. This is a fact (especially with Steven missing).
Our scattergun recruiting approach and our penchant for adding list cloggers continues unabated - also a fact
We've nevertheless won almost half our games so far this year - also a fact.

What's myth is the false and unrealistic expectation that a new or the next coach will solve it all -- we have a dozen of sacked coaches in a row that would vouch for that.
There's got to be something more to it and something else going wrong/on - and there is.

[Devilhead]

I’m reading this book called ‘the fall and rise of gerlong’ Chronicling their history from 60’s to their three peat...it’s intetesting reading and sheds light in just how the machinations of a footy club work, how you need good people in important positions...hun head coach, sure...but also so much more! I’ve cone away thinking the ceo is super important, more than I thought, head of re recruiting, super important! Luck, important! But I get the feeling we are way off the mark in heaps of areas at the moment! And it doesn’t give me any joy to write that

Good performance enhancing drugs are pretty important too

[saintsRrising]

Can anyone please PM me a link to a live stream? I'm overseas and damn AFL app doesn't work in that region.

I am overseas at present.

I watch the games live on kayosports. You just need to use a VPN and set it show you ate in Australia.

Kayo also allows you to watch the replay any game.

The VPN also works for Netflix etc. Set to us a if you want use Netflix etc.