Improved?

[magnifisaint]

Only??? Our problem last year wasn't going inside 50, it was scoring once we got there and the opposition sling shotting into attack.

Last year we were 13th for Inside 50s. This year we're 14th.

Going into 50 wasn't a problem last year??

How about looking at efficiency. The team that goes inside 50 doesnt always win. Its the one that scores the most. The Saints have become better ball users and hence more efficient.

[kosifantutti]

However, your thread asked whether we have improved, and clearly, we have. So maybe you need to ask a different question next time. Ok?

I don't think we have improved much, if at all. Certainly not offensively.

The fact that we won 4 games against weak opposition by less than a kick, is not evidence of improvement.

Not good with numbers or the rules of the game?
2 games by less than a kick, also lost one by less than a kick.

40 points against Melbourne
11 points after two dodgy decisions gifted two goals to Essendon in the last minute.
Melbourne is the only weak team we’ve beaten.

The Suns average 8 goals per game. They're weak. We played them at home.

Hawthorn lost two players during the game, and had already 3 of their best before the first bounce. They were weak.

Essendon were incredibly weak when we played them.


Melbourne are pathetic, and certainly were when we played them.

The only difference between what we dished up yesterday and the way we played in the first month, was the pressure and standard of our opposition.

Essendon and Gold Coast both won their next three after playing us, but they were conveniently weak when we played them.

Hawthorn lost two players during the game but so did we. Stratton and Frawley spent 60 and 31 % respectively on the ground. Parker and McKenzie played 66 and 33. Fortunately we had a complete squad to choose from and didn’t have to rely on a makeshift backline.

[BarryGrogan]

However, your thread asked whether we have improved, and clearly, we have. So maybe you need to ask a different question next time. Ok?

I don't think we have improved much, if at all. Certainly not offensively.

The fact that we won 4 games against weak opposition by less than a kick, is not evidence of improvement.

Not good with numbers or the rules of the game?
2 games by less than a kick, also lost one by less than a kick.

40 points against Melbourne
11 points after two dodgy decisions gifted two goals to Essendon in the last minute.
Melbourne is the only weak team we’ve beaten.

The Suns average 8 goals per game. They're weak. We played them at home.

Hawthorn lost two players during the game, and had already 3 of their best before the first bounce. They were weak.

Essendon were incredibly weak when we played them.


Melbourne are pathetic, and certainly were when we played them.

The only difference between what we dished up yesterday and the way we played in the first month, was the pressure and standard of our opposition.

Essendon and Gold Coast both won their next three after playing us, but they were conveniently weak when we played them.

Hawthorn lost two players during the game but so did we. Stratton and Frawley spent 60 and 31 % respectively on the ground. Parker and McKenzie played 66 and 33. Fortunately we had a complete squad to choose from and didn’t have to rely on a makeshift backline.

Parker and McKenzie compared to Stratton and Frawley??


And yes, it was convenient we played weak teams whilst they were out of form and/or undermanned. Would have been nice to get Adelaide three weeks ago too.

[BarryGrogan]

Only??? Our problem last year wasn't going inside 50, it was scoring once we got there and the opposition sling shotting into attack.

Last year we were 13th for Inside 50s. This year we're 14th.

Going into 50 wasn't a problem last year??

How about looking at efficiency. The team that goes inside 50 doesnt always win. Its the one that scores the most. The Saints have become better ball users and hence more efficient.

We were 2nd in the comp last year for % Efficiency Disposals.

This year we're 7th.

We've gone from 10.3 Marks Inside 50 last year, to 10.7. Barely a change at all. Less than half a Mark each week.

Considering Bruce didn't play last year, you could argue we've gone backwards in our delivery into the F50 based on those numbers.

We've also dropped from 12th to 15th in Goal Assists.

[kosifantutti]

However, your thread asked whether we have improved, and clearly, we have. So maybe you need to ask a different question next time. Ok?

I don't think we have improved much, if at all. Certainly not offensively.

The fact that we won 4 games against weak opposition by less than a kick, is not evidence of improvement.

Not good with numbers or the rules of the game?
2 games by less than a kick, also lost one by less than a kick.

40 points against Melbourne
11 points after two dodgy decisions gifted two goals to Essendon in the last minute.
Melbourne is the only weak team we’ve beaten.

The Suns average 8 goals per game. They're weak. We played them at home.

Hawthorn lost two players during the game, and had already 3 of their best before the first bounce. They were weak.

Essendon were incredibly weak when we played them.


Melbourne are pathetic, and certainly were when we played them.

The only difference between what we dished up yesterday and the way we played in the first month, was the pressure and standard of our opposition.

Essendon and Gold Coast both won their next three after playing us, but they were conveniently weak when we played them.

Hawthorn lost two players during the game but so did we. Stratton and Frawley spent 60 and 31 % respectively on the ground. Parker and McKenzie played 66 and 33. Fortunately we had a complete squad to choose from and didn’t have to rely on a makeshift backline.

Parker and McKenzie compared to Stratton and Frawley??


And yes, it was convenient we played weak teams whilst they were out of form and/or undermanned. Would have been nice to get Adelaide three weeks ago too.

All you said was two Hawthorn players lost during the game, now you want to talk quality. Stratton and Frawley both over 30. Frawley certainly no longer amongst Hawthorn’s best. McKenzie was top 10 for us last year off 13 games. Parker going alright.

I still haven’t heard your explanation of our four wins by under a goal.

[Kilda]

What infuriates - and most fans are acutely aware of this - is our kick from just outside the forward line. Rarely do we find (a) a lead is made and (b) that the player upfield spots the lead and delivers a flat pass.

Instead, we continue to bomb the ball to a crowded pack. Unless freakazoid Matty P clunks it, it often reaps little. And we seem to lack the crumbers to take advantage of a spilt ball.

We desperately need more method entering the forward zone. Currently it undercuts all the good work from defence and the mids.

[BarryGrogan]

All you said was two Hawthorn players lost during the game, now you want to talk quality. Stratton and Frawley both over 30. Frawley certainly no longer amongst Hawthorn’s best. McKenzie was top 10 for us last year off 13 games. Parker going alright.

I still haven’t heard your explanation of our four wins by under a goal.

It's quantity and quality. Losing your FB and CHB during the game obviously a significant problem. To naively suggest that losing a fringe HB and 2nd gamer is even remotely equivalent is just silly.

[BarryGrogan]

What infuriates - and most fans are acutely aware of this - is our kick from just outside the forward line. Rarely do we find (a) a lead is made and (b) that the player upfield spots the lead and delivers a flat pass.

Instead, we continue to bomb the ball to a crowded pack. Unless freakazoid Matty P clunks it, it often reaps little. And we seem to lack the crumbers to take advantage of a spilt ball.

We desperately need more method entering the forward zone. Currently it undercuts all the good work from defence and the mids.

Been watching this site for years, and I've seen threads pleading for Richo to address this since probably 2016.

The way he coached and played McCartin, and the way he plays Bruce, combined with the fact that he has done zero to change this - clearly tells us that this isn't an accident. This is how Richo thinks the game should be played.

[kosifantutti]

All you said was two Hawthorn players lost during the game, now you want to talk quality. Stratton and Frawley both over 30. Frawley certainly no longer amongst Hawthorn’s best. McKenzie was top 10 for us last year off 13 games. Parker going alright.

I still haven’t heard your explanation of our four wins by under a goal.

It's quantity and quality. Losing your FB and CHB during the game obviously a significant problem. To naively suggest that losing a fringe HB and 2nd gamer is even remotely equivalent is just silly.

Stratton and McKenzie were both named HBF. I’m pretty sure Sicily was named and played at CHB.

Did I mention DMac was 10th in our best and fairest off just 13 games last year?

I’ll wait for that explanation of four wins by under a goal.

BTW, Parker’s 4th game, not a big deal but just another fact you made up.

[BarryGrogan]

All you said was two Hawthorn players lost during the game, now you want to talk quality. Stratton and Frawley both over 30. Frawley certainly no longer amongst Hawthorn’s best. McKenzie was top 10 for us last year off 13 games. Parker going alright.

I still haven’t heard your explanation of our four wins by under a goal.

It's quantity and quality. Losing your FB and CHB during the game obviously a significant problem. To naively suggest that losing a fringe HB and 2nd gamer is even remotely equivalent is just silly.

Stratton and McKenzie were both named HBF. I’m pretty sure Sicily was named and played at CHB.

Did I mention DMac was 10th in our best and fairest off just 13 games last year?

I’ll wait for that explanation of four wins by under a goal.

BTW, Parker’s 4th game, not a big deal but just another fact you made up.

You know we won 4 games last year yeah? And you think coming 10th in the B&F is something to hang your hat on?

Please.


And if you're resorting to positions that are named in the paper, then were wasting our time here. You're either just looking for a fight, or have zero clue what you're talking about.

[BarryGrogan]

BTW, Parker’s 4th game, not a big deal but just another fact you made up.

You're right, it's not a big deal. The difference between a 2nd gamer, and a 4th gamer is totally irrelevant in the context of comparing him to a 180 game, triple premiership player and captain of their club.

I mean seriously, what nonsense.

Discuss the topic, but chasing petty semantics is just making you look silly and is wasting my time.

[kosifantutti]

All you said was two Hawthorn players lost during the game, now you want to talk quality. Stratton and Frawley both over 30. Frawley certainly no longer amongst Hawthorn’s best. McKenzie was top 10 for us last year off 13 games. Parker going alright.

I still haven’t heard your explanation of our four wins by under a goal.

It's quantity and quality. Losing your FB and CHB during the game obviously a significant problem. To naively suggest that losing a fringe HB and 2nd gamer is even remotely equivalent is just silly.

Stratton and McKenzie were both named HBF. I’m pretty sure Sicily was named and played at CHB.

Did I mention DMac was 10th in our best and fairest off just 13 games last year?

I’ll wait for that explanation of four wins by under a goal.

BTW, Parker’s 4th game, not a big deal but just another fact you made up.

You know we won 4 games last year yeah? And you think coming 10th in the B&F is something to hang your hat on?

Please.


And if you're resorting to positions that are named in the paper, then were wasting our time here. You're either just looking for a fight, or have zero clue what you're talking about.

Have you heard of James Sicily? Was he playing forward pocket?

[kosifantutti]

And McKenzie being 10th in the B&F would suggest he’s not a fringe player.

How are we going with those four games we won by less than a goal?

[thejiggingsaint]

"Improved" ??? From the same stage in 2018? errrrrrrrr that would HAVE to be a "yes" on results alone. I'm well aware that some will start trotting out percentages and stats to somehow prove otherwise, but the simple fact remains that at this stage last year we had ONE win, and ONE draw to our ledger. We were flogged by Adelaide and spanked by North Melbourne. Yes, we lost yesterday but were far from disgraced. To see how far we have improved, look no further than those who are below us. We may well not finish in the eight (WAY too early to call on that one too!) this season, but (for my money) this side has a lot of positives going for it.

[35...LEGEND]

IMO we've improved a little bit, and think we'll finish somewhere around 8th to 12th.

I base my opinion of 'improvement' on whether I'd rather be Fishing, Punting, Gardening, Cleaning out the Shed or sitting down and watching the Mighty Sainters.

ATM I can't wait for footy to roll around each weekend.....there will be disappointment ,(the weekend) ,but there are signs we are crawling out of the $hit.

GO SAINTS .

[King12]

IMO we've improved a little bit, and think we'll finish somewhere around 8th to 12th.

I base my opinion of 'improvement' on whether I'd rater be Fishing, Punting, Gardening, Cleaning out the Shed or sitting down and watching the Mighty Sainters.

ATM I can't wait for footy to roll around each weekend.....there will be disappointment ,(the weekend) ,but there are signs we are crawling out of the $hit.

GO SAINTS .

Good post. Agree, plus think of whom is not playing ATM, we have improved for sure.

[Shaggy]

"Improved" ??? From the same stage in 2018? errrrrrrrr that would HAVE to be a "yes" on results alone. I'm well aware that some will start trotting out percentages and stats to somehow prove otherwise, but the simple fact remains that at this stage last year we had ONE win, and ONE draw to our ledger. We were flogged by Adelaide and spanked by North Melbourne. Yes, we lost yesterday but were far from disgraced. To see how far we have improved, look no further than those who are below us. We may well not finish in the eight (WAY too early to call on that one too!) this season, but (for my money) this side has a lot of positives going for it.

I 100% agree. It is obvious we have improved but we are not going to win the flag this year. Some supporters do not like having their hopes raised because of the hurt they feel when we do not win.

Most supporters can see significant improvement at the top end in Marshall, Billings, Steele & Gresham. Lonie would be getting there as well if he converted his chances.

Most supporters can see Bruce, Long & Newnes playing uninjured makes a big difference to us.

Most supporters can see Wilke, Parker & Patton are genuinely good additions to the team.

We are about 10 players better off this year than last year IMO.

We are 4 wins 2 losses compared to 4 wins for the whole year last year and player on player we are clearly much better in 2019 IMO.

[Trev from the Bush]

Can't be bothered reading these posts, or responses.

BarryGrogan is a new name to Saintsational and seems obsessed by fractions.

Perhaps, he was previously known as Stan the Statistician from Stradbroke Island?

[King12]

Can't be bothered reading these posts, or responses.

BarryGrogan is a new name to Saintsational and seems obsessed by fractions.

Perhaps, he was previously known as Stan the Statistician from Stradbroke Island?

Haha.

[twirlyhair]

We averaged 73 Points For last year.

We average 77.3 this year.

Not sure if my math or my English is out.

Doesn’t improvement mean better, and isn’t 77 more than 73?

Your English.

As stated, the additional 4 points is purely due to a slight improvement in conversion.

More Clearances (ave. 6 more than last year) = first use. Yet Less Inside 50s, & less scoring shots.

Less Inside 50s and less scoring shots clearly shows that our biggest problems have not been resolved.

Oh Barry, the darkness is growing as the hole you dig deepens.

Please leave me out of the childish forum bickering.

If you want engage as an adult, I'm happy to oblige. But if you want to play the 'tit for tat' stuff with me like you to try to do with everyone else, you're barking up the wrong tree and I'm not interested.

Come on Barry. Keep your chin up.

[WellardSaint]

I think the way we played the Crows,
shows deep weaknesses in our backline.
They were masked by great team play by those backs, playing as a unit.
WCE will prove a nightmare, JK will get 4-6 goals and their fwds will all have a fun day.
The Cats will tear us a new one too.
Smooth slick fwd work will slice us open.
Unless our coaches can work some magic, we'll be lucky to win another 4 games.

[samoht]

Transferred to other thread ...

[thejiggingsaint]

I think the way we played the Crows,
shows deep weaknesses in our backline.
They were masked by great team play by those backs, playing as a unit.
WCE will prove a nightmare, JK will get 4-6 goals and their fwds will all have a fun day.
The Cats will tear us a new one too.
Smooth slick fwd work will slice us open.
Unless our coaches can work some magic, we'll be lucky to win another 4 games.

WOW!!! As good as THAT??!!!!

[Sainternist]

If you don't think the team has improved from last year, you fair dinkum haven't been watching the team play. Last year's team would have lost today's game by 10+ goals.

And hey, we have won 4 out of 6 games. We're only half a game behind what we ended up with last year, only a quarter of the way through the season. We'll get a better barometer of where we're at after the next 5 games.

FFS, hang in there!

So we've definitely improved, but we won't know if we've improved until we play the next 5 games??


That's actually my point. Everyone is jumping up and down at our supposed improvement, but they're basing that purely on the fact that we've won 4 games.

However if you strip it back, I don't think the improvement is anywhere near as big as people think. The same huge flaws, remain huge flaws.

And as you say, the perspective will become far clearer as the season moves on.

No, I disagree. The proof is in the pudding, that after 6 games, the team has improved dramatically from last year. Have you not been watching the games? The loss against Adelaide was frustrating, but it wasn't anything like the blunder-ridden losses from last year. They seem far better drilled. If we capitalised more in that first quarter and put Adelaide further on the back foot, it could have been a lot different in the end.

[Yorkeys]

On the positive side we have recruited a couple, shown we can do switching to open up defences and a couple of players have improved, we are clearly fit aerobically. Same same is the lack of composure in attack; we should have blown Adelaide away with the chances we had in the first quarter but some played with the nous of a drunken sailor with a pocket full of dough - we still cannot take our chances sufficiently and be grateful when they come; we have a size problem (Richo's proto type was small quick players and fast play on - he seemed to overlook that other sides have big quick players) and that has not yet washed through in new recruiting; None of the key positions are really settled - Brown is treading water until a full back comes along; Steele is used negatively when really we need to score; Injuries to one, or disastrously both, of Bruce and Marshall expose us which means we get beaten in packs and clearances; we consistently use the driver to approach the F50 when laying up could avoid the 6'4" defensive hazards lurking there and the Elephant in the room - or pebble in their footy boots - is still there and his influence will chip away during the season particularly as we inevitable hit a few low points. Time will tell of course, but perhaps a couple of sides have regressed and that makes us look comparatively better than 2018 overall. I hope the Adelaide game was just the let down you need early to regroup.