The pelican really crapped in our nest.

[takeaway]

Dunstan was picked ahead of Acres - so the McEvoy trade netted Acres and Savage. If the trade hadn’t happened neither would be at the club - Dunstan and McEvoy would be. Not sure if we won that trade but at the time it looked good. A better coach and team has made McEvoy a much better player.

No, the McEvoy trade was McEvoy, 24 & 59 for Savage, 18 & 19, so we got Savage, Dunstan and Acres. Good trade for both, Hawks needed a ruckman, and Saints have had good service from Savage, & Dunstan and Acres just hitting prime age, and Acres especially could still be anything.
Good trade and I think over time we will be well ahead. Hawks may well have won flags without McEvoy.

I have no problems with the Pelican, came into a difficult situation, compromised drafts, and imo did pretty well.

No the trade was McEvoy for Savage & Pick 18.
https://m.afl.com.au/news/2013-10-10/hawks-nab-mcevoy

We did a seperate trade with the Hawks for pick 19 - for 24 & 59. It was not part of the same package.

So if we had not traded McEvoy we would drafted Dunstan with pick 19, not Acres.

I guess we could debate that if one trade hadn’t happened the other would have fallen through, but officially they are seperate- not that it really bears debate anyway - we are where we are. I generally agree - both clubs did okay with the trade - but we all expected to have done better than it seems. There is still time.

The 2nd trade was part of the first - was delayed because the Saints were waiting on confirmation of the Delaney trade which may have used pick 59, but in the end they got Delaney for pick 77 as they had hoped, hence 24 & 59 for 19 (compo pick). Also the Longer & Bruce trades were up in the air. As I remember it only, cannot verify it. I guess the trades were separate, but agreed to at the same time, provided other trades happened as expected. Doesn't really matter anyway.

[hayes66]

Very simply, recruiting has been really poor for a decade.

Or has it really? If you're talking 2008 - 2018.

We all assume that, but it really comes down to two years, 2009 & 2010. Low draft picks (and a compromised draft in 2010) and lack of salary cap space had something to do with that. The following are the players we brought in during that period, that played regularly at AFL level, still do, or a still on our List:

2008
F Ray
T Lynch (now Adelaide)
R Stanley (now Geelong)
Z Dawson
B Peake

2009
Nobody

2010
Nobody

2011
S Ross
J Newnes
J Webster

2012
D Roberton
T Hickey (now West Coast)
L Pierce

2013
B Longer
J Bruce
J Billings
L Dunstan
B Acres
M Weller (now Richmond)

2014
T Membrey
P McCartin
H Goddard (now Carlton)
D McKenzie
J Lonie
J Sinclair

2015
J Carlisle
J Gresham
B White
B Rice

2016
J Steele
N Brown
B Long
J Battle
E Phillips
R Marshall

2017
L Austin
H Clark
N Coffield
O Clavarino
B Paton
D Langlands

2018
D Hannebery
D Kent
M King
J Bytel
M Parker
N Hind
R Young
C Wilkie

Correction!!!
2009 Mark Hutchings
2010 Jamie Cripps.

Unless I have missed something the research by some people on this site could we say, “Needs to improve.”

[saintsRrising]

Very simply, recruiting has been really poor for a decade.

Or has it really? If you're talking 2008 - 2018.

We all assume that, but it really comes down to two years, 2009 & 2010. Low draft picks (and a compromised draft in 2010) and lack of salary cap space had something to do with that. The following are the players we brought in during that period, that played regularly at AFL level, still do, or a still on our List:

2008
F Ray
T Lynch (now Adelaide)
R Stanley (now Geelong)
Z Dawson
B Peake

2009
Nobody

2010
Nobody

2011
S Ross
J Newnes
J Webster

2012
D Roberton
T Hickey (now West Coast)
L Pierce

2013
B Longer
J Bruce
J Billings
L Dunstan
B Acres
M Weller (now Richmond)

2014
T Membrey
P McCartin
H Goddard (now Carlton)
D McKenzie
J Lonie
J Sinclair

2015
J Carlisle
J Gresham
B White
B Rice

2016
J Steele
N Brown
B Long
J Battle
E Phillips
R Marshall

2017
L Austin
H Clark
N Coffield
O Clavarino
B Paton
D Langlands

2018
D Hannebery
D Kent
M King
J Bytel
M Parker
N Hind
R Young
C Wilkie

Correction!!!
2009 Mark Hutchings
2010 Jamie Cripps.

Unless I have missed something the research by some people on this site could we say, “Needs to improve.”

The real problem here is at that period that we have not drafted one player that has become elite for us.

Gresh and Billings might become elite, or they may just become very good players.

Carlisle is elite, but we bought him.

So with all of our drafting and most of our trading there has been a real lack of top end players gained.

[saynta]

B J and Dal were elite.

[saintsRrising]

B J and Dal were elite.

I was referring to who came in. Though yes I assume you are meaning that you also need to keep what you have.

For a club to prosper in the future you need to keep getting new elite players in (plus yes many other factors).

Basically the Saints in terms of drafting have not yet drafted in a player who HAS become elite since Jack Steven.

That is way, way back in 2007!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think about this. Not since 2007.

Gresh and Billings may get there, but are not yet there.

Now there is also the "nature vs nurture" argument in picking vs developing.


There are all sorts of strategies to rebuild and or maintain your list and all may work, but if you cannot spot the right talent then none will succeed.

The Cats have for example been very good at spotting talent.

The Lions had become poor at it, but have been really good at in recent years. Remember too that they would be even better off if it was not that did have a huge problem in retaining players like Yeo.

The Hawks were ok at it, but became masterful at grabbing talent from other clubs. They probably also have been the best at developing talent.

[saynta]

You got my meaning,

[Linton Lodger]

Very simply, recruiting has been really poor for a decade.

Or has it really? If you're talking 2008 - 2018.

We all assume that, but it really comes down to two years, 2009 & 2010. Low draft picks (and a compromised draft in 2010) and lack of salary cap space had something to do with that. The following are the players we brought in during that period, that played regularly at AFL level, still do, or a still on our List:

2008
F Ray
T Lynch (now Adelaide)
R Stanley (now Geelong)
Z Dawson
B Peake

2009
Nobody

2010
Nobody

2011
S Ross
J Newnes
J Webster

2012
D Roberton
T Hickey (now West Coast)
L Pierce

2013
B Longer
J Bruce
J Billings
L Dunstan
B Acres
M Weller (now Richmond)

2014
T Membrey
P McCartin
H Goddard (now Carlton)
D McKenzie
J Lonie
J Sinclair

2015
J Carlisle
J Gresham
B White
B Rice

2016
J Steele
N Brown
B Long
J Battle
E Phillips
R Marshall

2017
L Austin
H Clark
N Coffield
O Clavarino
B Paton
D Langlands

2018
D Hannebery
D Kent
M King
J Bytel
M Parker
N Hind
R Young
C Wilkie

Correction!!!
2009 Mark Hutchings
2010 Jamie Cripps.

Unless I have missed something the research by some people on this site could we say, “Needs to improve.”

Yes I did miss those, both at West Coast. Research? I spent 10 minutes on Wikipedia.

[hayes66]

Very simply, recruiting has been really poor for a decade.

Or has it really? If you're talking 2008 - 2018.

We all assume that, but it really comes down to two years, 2009 & 2010. Low draft picks (and a compromised draft in 2010) and lack of salary cap space had something to do with that. The following are the players we brought in during that period, that played regularly at AFL level, still do, or a still on our List:

2008
F Ray
T Lynch (now Adelaide)
R Stanley (now Geelong)
Z Dawson
B Peake

2009
Nobody

2010
Nobody

2011
S Ross
J Newnes
J Webster

2012
D Roberton
T Hickey (now West Coast)
L Pierce

2013
B Longer
J Bruce
J Billings
L Dunstan
B Acres
M Weller (now Richmond)

2014
T Membrey
P McCartin
H Goddard (now Carlton)
D McKenzie
J Lonie
J Sinclair

2015
J Carlisle
J Gresham
B White
B Rice

2016
J Steele
N Brown
B Long
J Battle
E Phillips
R Marshall

2017
L Austin
H Clark
N Coffield
O Clavarino
B Paton
D Langlands

2018
D Hannebery
D Kent
M King
J Bytel
M Parker
N Hind
R Young
C Wilkie

Correction!!!
2009 Mark Hutchings
2010 Jamie Cripps.

Unless I have missed something the research by some people on this site could we say, “Needs to improve.”

Yes I did miss those, both at West Coast. Research? I spent 10 minutes on Wikipedia.

No worries. It wasn’t just that mistake I was having ago at.
The McEvoy trade.
It was for pick 18 and Shane Savage.
Not Blake Acres.
Stanley was for pick 21 which was used on Hugh Goddard.
I maybe wrong but sometimes I feel people can be very loose with their facts just to prove a point they believe is right. When sometimes if they looked at the honest facts they may well need to review their opinion.
By your response yours was obviously an honest mistake.

[SaintPav]

Wikipedia isn't always right.

[twirlyhair]

Very simply, recruiting has been really poor for a decade.

Or has it really? If you're talking 2008 - 2018.

We all assume that, but it really comes down to two years, 2009 & 2010. Low draft picks (and a compromised draft in 2010) and lack of salary cap space had something to do with that. The following are the players we brought in during that period, that played regularly at AFL level, still do, or a still on our List:

2008
F Ray
T Lynch (now Adelaide)
R Stanley (now Geelong)
Z Dawson
B Peake

2009
Nobody

2010
Nobody

2011
S Ross
J Newnes
J Webster

2012
D Roberton
T Hickey (now West Coast)
L Pierce

2013
B Longer
J Bruce
J Billings
L Dunstan
B Acres
M Weller (now Richmond)

2014
T Membrey
P McCartin
H Goddard (now Carlton)
D McKenzie
J Lonie
J Sinclair

2015
J Carlisle
J Gresham
B White
B Rice

2016
J Steele
N Brown
B Long
J Battle
E Phillips
R Marshall

2017
L Austin
H Clark
N Coffield
O Clavarino
B Paton
D Langlands

2018
D Hannebery
D Kent
M King
J Bytel
M Parker
N Hind
R Young
C Wilkie

Correction!!!
2009 Mark Hutchings
2010 Jamie Cripps.

Unless I have missed something the research by some people on this site could we say, “Needs to improve.”

But facts get in the way of a good opinion!

[Linton Lodger]

Very simply, recruiting has been really poor for a decade.

Or has it really? If you're talking 2008 - 2018.

We all assume that, but it really comes down to two years, 2009 & 2010. Low draft picks (and a compromised draft in 2010) and lack of salary cap space had something to do with that. The following are the players we brought in during that period, that played regularly at AFL level, still do, or a still on our List:

2008
F Ray
T Lynch (now Adelaide)
R Stanley (now Geelong)
Z Dawson
B Peake

2009
Nobody

2010
Nobody

2011
S Ross
J Newnes
J Webster

2012
D Roberton
T Hickey (now West Coast)
L Pierce

2013
B Longer
J Bruce
J Billings
L Dunstan
B Acres
M Weller (now Richmond)

2014
T Membrey
P McCartin
H Goddard (now Carlton)
D McKenzie
J Lonie
J Sinclair

2015
J Carlisle
J Gresham
B White
B Rice

2016
J Steele
N Brown
B Long
J Battle
E Phillips
R Marshall

2017
L Austin
H Clark
N Coffield
O Clavarino
B Paton
D Langlands

2018
D Hannebery
D Kent
M King
J Bytel
M Parker
N Hind
R Young
C Wilkie

Correction!!!
2009 Mark Hutchings
2010 Jamie Cripps.

Unless I have missed something the research by some people on this site could we say, “Needs to improve.”

Yes I did miss those, both at West Coast. Research? I spent 10 minutes on Wikipedia.

No worries. It wasn’t just that mistake I was having ago at.
The McEvoy trade.
It was for pick 18 and Shane Savage.
Not Blake Acres.
Stanley was for pick 21 which was used on Hugh Goddard.
I maybe wrong but sometimes I feel people can be very loose with their facts just to prove a point they believe is right. When sometimes if they looked at the honest facts they may well need to review their opinion.
By your response yours was obviously an honest mistake.

You're right about the Stanley trade, however what Takeaway posted above was accurate:

"The 2nd trade was part of the first - was delayed because the Saints were waiting on confirmation of the Delaney trade which may have used pick 59, but in the end they got Delaney for pick 77 as they had hoped, hence 24 & 59 for 19 (compo pick)".

It was the one deal, done in 2 parts. In completion we traded McEvoy & picks 24 & 59 for Savage and picks 18 & 19. We drafted Dunstan & Acres with those picks.

[takeaway]

Very simply, recruiting has been really poor for a decade.

Or has it really? If you're talking 2008 - 2018.

We all assume that, but it really comes down to two years, 2009 & 2010. Low draft picks (and a compromised draft in 2010) and lack of salary cap space had something to do with that. The following are the players we brought in during that period, that played regularly at AFL level, still do, or a still on our List:

2008
F Ray
T Lynch (now Adelaide)
R Stanley (now Geelong)
Z Dawson
B Peake

2009
Nobody

2010
Nobody

2011
S Ross
J Newnes
J Webster

2012
D Roberton
T Hickey (now West Coast)
L Pierce

2013
B Longer
J Bruce
J Billings
L Dunstan
B Acres
M Weller (now Richmond)

2014
T Membrey
P McCartin
H Goddard (now Carlton)
D McKenzie
J Lonie
J Sinclair

2015
J Carlisle
J Gresham
B White
B Rice

2016
J Steele
N Brown
B Long
J Battle
E Phillips
R Marshall

2017
L Austin
H Clark
N Coffield
O Clavarino
B Paton
D Langlands

2018
D Hannebery
D Kent
M King
J Bytel
M Parker
N Hind
R Young
C Wilkie

Correction!!!
2009 Mark Hutchings
2010 Jamie Cripps.

Unless I have missed something the research by some people on this site could we say, “Needs to improve.”

Yes I did miss those, both at West Coast. Research? I spent 10 minutes on Wikipedia.

No worries. It wasn’t just that mistake I was having ago at.
The McEvoy trade.
It was for pick 18 and Shane Savage.
Not Blake Acres.
Stanley was for pick 21 which was used on Hugh Goddard.
I maybe wrong but sometimes I feel people can be very loose with their facts just to prove a point they believe is right. When sometimes if they looked at the honest facts they may well need to review their opinion.
By your response yours was obviously an honest mistake.

Don't agree with you re McEvoy trade. Was outlined earlier in this thread. We would not have got Acres without the McEvoy trade - was technically a separate trade, but Hawks agreed to the pick 19 deal (compo pick) as part of the McEvoy dealings, just needed to finalise the Delaney trade first to ensure picks 24 & 59 were available to the Hawks for pick 19. I remember following it closely as I was shocked at the time. Ameet Bains explained the McEvoy trade details after the trade period, however of course I can't prove that now. So feel free to just use the basic summaries available on media re that trade period, it doesn't show between the lines.

[hayes66]

Fair enough. I got 2/3. I should take my own advice and be more on the ball with the facts.
So, McEvoy for Dunstan, Acres and Savage.
Now, this is just an opinion so don’t lose your $&@&. Dunstan honest trier, Savage handy and Acres still a little undecided.
Winner??? Just an opinion but bit of a fan of Big Boy. Hard to find ruckman.

[takeaway]

Fair enough. I got 2/3. I should take my own advice and be more on the ball with the facts.
So, McEvoy for Dunstan, Acres and Savage.
Now, this is just an opinion so don’t lose your $&@&. Dunstan honest trier, Savage handy and Acres still a little undecided.
Winner??? Just an opinion but bit of a fan of Big Boy. Hard to find ruckman.

Hawks also got 24 (Hartung) & 59 (Ceglar, rookie upgrade who they would have got anyway with a later pick) as part of the trade.

Winner? You would have to wait a few years, Dunstan and more importantly Acres are coming into their prime years. Hawks got McEvoy at the right time, in the premiership window, and successful. So Hawks in front at the moment, but Saints were rebuilding, brought in younger players.
When McEvoy is retired will Acres, and perhaps Dunstan be tearing it up in finals for Saints when a lot of their list is in peak AFL years? Who knows? Would they have persevered with Marshall if Big boy was still around?

[Yorkeys]

Dunstan seems to be a little better than a trier this year (?) and possibly dropped because of a horses for courses approach - he does really good work in the trenches with his tenacity and quick hands. Savage is also better this year, thought he was good against Freo; and Acres also seems to be improving a little each week (yes precision instruments are needed to measure it). McAvoy is good now but really wasn't that hot with us and I guess that reflects on our system at the time. Clarkson of course is one of the all time great coaches so he has to be given credit for seeing and developing Big Boy's skills. The current coaches seem to be doing reasonably with the hand the pelican and fickle fate has dealt them. There is still a small elephant in the room though.

[sunsaint]

The Hawks were ok at it, but became masterful at grabbing talent from other clubs. They probably also have been the best at developing talent.

The Hawks are THE case in point
They offer a club to players that give you the opportunity to play in a successful club
Sometimes that means being signed on as an expensive poach
Sometimes that means the pay cut for existing players
And sometimes being a champion of the club doesn't guarantee you a final contract that is basically a superannuation cheque
Luke Hodge and Sam Mitchell being prime examples