Richo review

[rodgerfox]

But an image that is still based on no facts, just because things weren't handled correctly doesn't mean Richo doesn't have any strengths as a coach.

What are his strengths?

Clearly gathering feedback.isn't one of them. Given he had no idea what the Captain's opinion on him was until he opened the Dear John letter in America - he clearly isn't very self aware either.

The most concerning thing is his reaction to it to be honest. It sounds like he tries too hard to make people like him. His subsequent glorifying of Geary as a reaction to some criticism comes across as a desperate schoolboy trying to make friends.

Riewoldt bagging him for not being hard enough really rings true.

I tell you what, I'll play the same game I played with Skeppers a while back, you go first. If you respond with nothing then the conversation is over, but if you can demonstrate objectivity by naming some strengths then I will have a go too.

To debate an issue objectively you have to try to understand the other persons point of view better than they do...

I didn't even know I was debating with you.

[Crossy66]

But an image that is still based on no facts, just because things weren't handled correctly doesn't mean Richo doesn't have any strengths as a coach.

What are his strengths?

Clearly gathering feedback.isn't one of them. Given he had no idea what the Captain's opinion on him was until he opened the Dear John letter in America - he clearly isn't very self aware either.

The most concerning thing is his reaction to it to be honest. It sounds like he tries too hard to make people like him. His subsequent glorifying of Geary as a reaction to some criticism comes across as a desperate schoolboy trying to make friends.

Riewoldt bagging him for not being hard enough really rings true.

I tell you what, I'll play the same game I played with Skeppers a while back, you go first. If you respond with nothing then the conversation is over, but if you can demonstrate objectivity by naming some strengths then I will have a go too.

To debate an issue objectively you have to try to understand the other persons point of view better than they do...

I didn't even know I was debating with you.

Its probably a flawed question. I reckon if you have played 114 games, been a coach for 20 years and have been chosen as an AFL coach, you are going to be pretty good at most of the role requirements. The question should be what could he have been better at to arrest the slide from round 17, 2017 onwards. Second question is can it be fixed?

[Cairnsman]

But an image that is still based on no facts, just because things weren't handled correctly doesn't mean Richo doesn't have any strengths as a coach.

What are his strengths?

Clearly gathering feedback.isn't one of them. Given he had no idea what the Captain's opinion on him was until he opened the Dear John letter in America - he clearly isn't very self aware either.

The most concerning thing is his reaction to it to be honest. It sounds like he tries too hard to make people like him. His subsequent glorifying of Geary as a reaction to some criticism comes across as a desperate schoolboy trying to make friends.

Riewoldt bagging him for not being hard enough really rings true.

I tell you what, I'll play the same game I played with Skeppers a while back, you go first. If you respond with nothing then the conversation is over, but if you can demonstrate objectivity by naming some strengths then I will have a go too.

To debate an issue objectively you have to try to understand the other persons point of view better than they do...

I didn't even know I was debating with you.

You weren't, I was trying to raise the bar.

[rodgerfox]

But an image that is still based on no facts, just because things weren't handled correctly doesn't mean Richo doesn't have any strengths as a coach.

What are his strengths?

Clearly gathering feedback.isn't one of them. Given he had no idea what the Captain's opinion on him was until he opened the Dear John letter in America - he clearly isn't very self aware either.

The most concerning thing is his reaction to it to be honest. It sounds like he tries too hard to make people like him. His subsequent glorifying of Geary as a reaction to some criticism comes across as a desperate schoolboy trying to make friends.

Riewoldt bagging him for not being hard enough really rings true.

I tell you what, I'll play the same game I played with Skeppers a while back, you go first. If you respond with nothing then the conversation is over, but if you can demonstrate objectivity by naming some strengths then I will have a go too.

To debate an issue objectively you have to try to understand the other persons point of view better than they do...

I didn't even know I was debating with you.

Its probably a flawed question. I reckon if you have played 114 games, been a coach for 20 years and have been chosen as an AFL coach, you are going to be pretty good at most of the role requirements. The question should be what could he have been better at to arrest the slide from round 17, 2017 onwards. Second question is can it be fixed?

He did get overlooked several times for a job though. Presumably because he simply didn't have the skills required.

Besides, the question was 'what elite skills does he have to suggest he could be a good coach'.

Because the money and resources being poured into 'supporting' him must be astronomical.

[Cairnsman]

But an image that is still based on no facts, just because things weren't handled correctly doesn't mean Richo doesn't have any strengths as a coach.

What are his strengths?

Clearly gathering feedback.isn't one of them. Given he had no idea what the Captain's opinion on him was until he opened the Dear John letter in America - he clearly isn't very self aware either.

The most concerning thing is his reaction to it to be honest. It sounds like he tries too hard to make people like him. His subsequent glorifying of Geary as a reaction to some criticism comes across as a desperate schoolboy trying to make friends.

Riewoldt bagging him for not being hard enough really rings true.

I tell you what, I'll play the same game I played with Skeppers a while back, you go first. If you respond with nothing then the conversation is over, but if you can demonstrate objectivity by naming some strengths then I will have a go too.

To debate an issue objectively you have to try to understand the other persons point of view better than they do...

I didn't even know I was debating with you.

Its probably a flawed question. I reckon if you have played 114 games, been a coach for 20 years and have been chosen as an AFL coach, you are going to be pretty good at most of the role requirements. The question should be what could he have been better at to arrest the slide from round 17, 2017 onwards. Second question is can it be fixed?

He did get overlooked several times for a job though. Presumably because he simply didn't have the skills required.

Besides, the question was 'what elite skills does he have to suggest he could be a good coach'.

Because the money and resources being poured into 'supporting' him must be astronomical.

More making stuff up and re writing history by you. C66 you pose a great question and one that would have been asked as part of the review process you would expect. Can it be fixed will be know shortly you'd guess based on the tweaks that came from the review.

[To the top]

In regards the reference to Round 17 in 2017, from that game on we had no meaningful input from either Riewoldt or Montagna and that was a precursor to what awaited us in 2018

I note the answers of Lathlean and agree with his assessment

Basically, the rebuild started with the Drafting of Billings, Dunstan and Acres and it is the experience these players and those subsequently Drafted are receiving that will dictate our prospects in 2019

Our class experience is Steven and Carlisle - to whom we have added Hannebery (for that very reason)

[rodgerfox]

More making stuff up and re writing history by you.

?

He did get overlooked didn't he?

[Cairnsman]

More making stuff up and re writing history by you.

?

He did get overlooked didn't he?

Which clubs and why was he overlooked, you must know because you know he doesn't have any strengths. Your seems like our club is crap and hopeless and chose him even though he had no strengths, yeah makes sense. Our list must then be unreal if we achieved what we did in 2016/17 based on Alan taking over when we were a basket case in 14. Yeah makes sense, Alan had no part in that. Out of interest can you produce any posts of yours from 2016 when we were flying from a very very low base that confirm you've known all a long Alan has no strengths?

[shanegrambeau]

I don't care too much about Richo saying JG is a great bloke, captain or whatever. He has to say something. It isn't 2006 anymore, when Bomber Thompson was really pissed off at the review and those who instigated it. He didn't seem to hide it from the press either. I think Twitter wasn't going back in 2006. But he didn't speak to the CEO for twelve months after it. In 2007, by the way, the Cats were 2-3 after Round Five, before finishing top and winning the flag.

[rodgerfox]

More making stuff up and re writing history by you.

?

He did get overlooked didn't he?

Which clubs and why was he overlooked, you must know because you know he doesn't have any strengths. Your seems like our club is crap and hopeless and chose him even though he had no strengths, yeah makes sense. Our list must then be unreal if we achieved what we did in 2016/17 based on Alan taking over when we were a basket case in 14. Yeah makes sense, Alan had no part in that. Out of interest can you produce any posts of yours from 2016 when we were flying from a very very low base that confirm you've known all a long Alan has no strengths?

I don't think I said he has no strengths.

I said from the outside, I don't see any evidence that he has elite coaching skills. And I also said that nothing that has come out of the club explains what his elite skills are that justify the investment in him.

I posed the question as to what his elite skills are. No.one has been able to respond.

[Yorkeys]

Strengths: incumbency due to his ability to gain Board confidence, he can drive on field improvement in an unfettered way; he is loyal to players that follow his game plan, regardless; he is uncompromising on the need to pressure the opposition team's ball carrier; he sets a game plan and will stick to it regardless of the state of play or counter moves by opposition coaches (See Goodwin, 2018); he is able to clearly identify why games are lost and occasionally won. He cares for the players well being and if anything errs on the side of caution to ensure they are not at risk. He has a view on players earning spots and will not compromise, notwithstanding results of the firsts. He has great industry historical and anecdotal knowledge. He has worked with good coaches and seen from the inside how several clubs operate. He has significant contemporary PD study on his CV as the Saints have invested heavily in his management and emotional awareness. He is flexible in his coaching styles and can operate on the bench or in the box without missing a beat. He is not compromised by any close relationships with his assistants and is able to shed them easily: a cost of doing business. He fully supports the principle of no sledging another club's player, even under provocation, as it is not nice (must apologise publicly). He does not interfere in draft picking. He has a wealth of helpful analogies like "that's how Eddy Betts would crumb it" and "Ali changed his right jab approach and absorbed pile driving punches to exhaust his opponent". He has no problem bollicking young players errors e.g. Marshall's shank but is fully understanding of Mav's inability to kick straight at goal or to a team mate's advantage; balance in approach is a strength. He was easily the best dress up at the ice slide charity event. He is popular with all the other comp. teams coaches. He has embraced the idea that elite footballers while fitter than most on the planet still cannot run several 100 metre sprints during a few minutes of play and still execute hand eye coordination tasks at peak skill levels so it may be better to leave some (say forwards) in a condition slightly better than oxygen deprived. He in no way cares that he may or may not be under pressure if the team does not win a handful of games this year. Makes a great martini.

[Joffa Burns]

I posed the question as to what his elite skills are. No.one has been able to respond.

Contract negotiation, his own.
Terms & tenure.

[Cairnsman]

More making stuff up and re writing history by you.

?

He did get overlooked didn't he?

Which clubs and why was he overlooked, you must know because you know he doesn't have any strengths. Your seems like our club is crap and hopeless and chose him even though he had no strengths, yeah makes sense. Our list must then be unreal if we achieved what we did in 2016/17 based on Alan taking over when we were a basket case in 14. Yeah makes sense, Alan had no part in that. Out of interest can you produce any posts of yours from 2016 when we were flying from a very very low base that confirm you've known all a long Alan has no strengths?

I don't think I said he has no strengths.

I said from the outside, I don't see any evidence that he has elite coaching skills. And I also said that nothing that has come out of the club explains what his elite skills are that justify the investment in him.

I posed the question as to what his elite skills are. No.one has been able to respond.

So if you think he has strengths what are they?

[rodgerfox]

So if you think he has strengths what are they?

I have no idea if he has strengths nor what they are.

And no one, no current or ex-players, the club, supporters can tell me what his elite skills are.

I certainly can't see what they are from the outer. No evidence at all.

All good coaches have some elite skills or traits.

It's usually quite clear.

[Crossy66]

More making stuff up and re writing history by you.

?

He did get overlooked didn't he?

Which clubs and why was he overlooked, you must know because you know he doesn't have any strengths. Your seems like our club is crap and hopeless and chose him even though he had no strengths, yeah makes sense. Our list must then be unreal if we achieved what we did in 2016/17 based on Alan taking over when we were a basket case in 14. Yeah makes sense, Alan had no part in that. Out of interest can you produce any posts of yours from 2016 when we were flying from a very very low base that confirm you've known all a long Alan has no strengths?

I don't think I said he has no strengths.

I said from the outside, I don't see any evidence that he has elite coaching skills. And I also said that nothing that has come out of the club explains what his elite skills are that justify the investment in him.

I posed the question as to what his elite skills are. No.one has been able to respond.

I think you need to be elite in all areas of the role requirement of an AFL coach to get the gig in the first place so that should be a given. AFL industry is so small there is nowhere to hide.
The issue is how he responded to the dynamics with this group at the time i.e. was he too inflexible with game plan or player selection, too slow to react to what was happening etc.
I dont have the answers.
As far as investment goes, i dont think the Saints have spent anywhere near what Collingwood invested in Buckley as Eddies love child. They absolutely backed him too the hilt.

[Cairnsman]

So if you think he has strengths what are they?

I have no idea if he has strengths nor what they are.

And no one, no current or ex-players, the club, supporters can tell me what his elite skills are.

I certainly can't see what they are from the outer. No evidence at all.

All good coaches have some elite skills or traits.

It's usually quite clear.

You said you never said he didn't have any strengths. Logic...

[rodgerfox]

More making stuff up and re writing history by you.

?

He did get overlooked didn't he?

Which clubs and why was he overlooked, you must know because you know he doesn't have any strengths. Your seems like our club is crap and hopeless and chose him even though he had no strengths, yeah makes sense. Our list must then be unreal if we achieved what we did in 2016/17 based on Alan taking over when we were a basket case in 14. Yeah makes sense, Alan had no part in that. Out of interest can you produce any posts of yours from 2016 when we were flying from a very very low base that confirm you've known all a long Alan has no strengths?

I don't think I said he has no strengths.

I said from the outside, I don't see any evidence that he has elite coaching skills. And I also said that nothing that has come out of the club explains what his elite skills are that justify the investment in him.

I posed the question as to what his elite skills are. No.one has been able to respond.

I think you need to be elite in all areas of the role requirement of an AFL coach to get the gig in the first place so that should be a given. AFL industry is so small there is nowhere to hide.
The issue is how he responded to the dynamics with this group at the time i.e. was he too inflexible with game plan or player selection, too slow to react to what was happening etc.
I dont have the answers.
As far as investment goes, i dont think the Saints have spent anywhere near what Collingwood invested in Buckley as Eddies love child. They absolutely backed him too the hilt.

Buckley demonstrated elite communication skills, an elite understanding of what it takes to be an elite player, and his players adored him.
The ones that didn't, got the arse.

There's three clear elite coaching traits that he possessed.

He clearly had areas to improve in, but investing in those areas makes sense if there's elite qualities that you want to harness.

As I've said - I personally don't see anything elite about Richardson. And, I haven't heard anything from anyone to suggest he has any elite coaching attributes.

Therefore, I have concerns about the investment in him.


I mean, do you invest millions on a player that doesn't display any attributes that suggest he'll be anything more than just a GOP? Of course not.


To be honest, I think the club picked up a decent development coach that was overlooked by other clubs for obvious reasons.
For the first two three seasons he did exactly what they needed, then For the next two he did exactly what most people knew he would do - peak. He doesn't have the skills to be more than.a development coach. Never has, and no matter how many US study junkets we send him on - he never will.

[rodgerfox]

You said you never said he didn't have any strengths. Logic...

That's pretty flimsy logic. Even for an internet squabble.

[Cairnsman]

You said you never said he didn't have any strengths. Logic...

That's pretty flimsy logic. Even for an internet squabble.

Squabble? no facts, no logic, just the impressions from Murdoch media?

I look forward to tomorrow's Fox footy discussion.

[takeaway]

So if you think he has strengths what are they?

I have no idea if he has strengths nor what they are.

And no one, no current or ex-players, the club, supporters can tell me what his elite skills are.

I certainly can't see what they are from the outer. No evidence at all.

All good coaches have some elite skills or traits.

It's usually quite clear.

I doubt whether anyone on here would really know his strengths, or in fact his weaknesses. Unless you are in the inner sanctum. You can't really tell from the outer, as you say. Just relying on media reports or hearsay. So you are asking a question that can't be definitively answered on this forum.

Good coaches have some elite skills or traits? Probably, but if they are quite clear you should give examples that are proven. ie Clarko - what are his?
Hawthorn have been a strength for years, have been trendsetters, etc, but how can you say that is Clarko's "elite skills"? Has had good assistants, solid administration, what role have they played? How would say Adam Simpson have gone should he have been coach of Hawthorn instead of Clarkson? What are his strengths? It's certainly not "quite clear".

[Enrico_Misso]

Why has it taken 5 years to hook him up with a communications expert?

(Let's hope it's not Greg Westaway - right!).

[SaintPav]

But an image that is still based on no facts, just because things weren't handled correctly doesn't mean Richo doesn't have any strengths as a coach.

What are his strengths?

Clearly gathering feedback.isn't one of them. Given he had no idea what the Captain's opinion on him was until he opened the Dear John letter in America - he clearly isn't very self aware either.

The most concerning thing is his reaction to it to be honest. It sounds like he tries too hard to make people like him. His subsequent glorifying of Geary as a reaction to some criticism comes across as a desperate schoolboy trying to make friends.

Riewoldt bagging him for not being hard enough really rings true.

I tell you what, I'll play the same game I played with Skeppers a while back, you go first. If you respond with nothing then the conversation is over, but if you can demonstrate objectivity by naming some strengths then I will have a go too.

To debate an issue objectively you have to try to understand the other persons point of view better than they do...

I didn't even know I was debating with you.

You weren't, I was trying to raise the bar.

Cairnsman, why do you always put the burden on other posters to prove what they are saying?

It’s a style of posting and logic that is tiring to follow and it makes you sound infantile.

Have you heard of the aphorism “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

Proving a negative is also impossible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proving_a_negative

Bring on the one day ban.

[barneyboyz]

Not sure how long an executive or senior manager in Basset's Seek organisation would last if they had the sub standard output that Richo has had for 5 years- there would be no propping up with other staff to try and get results..you would be long gone! No doubt Richo is only still there while the club sees out his contract.

every time i read someone say something like 5 years of Richo failure, i think its inaccurate. Richo took over a wooden spooner and went 18th, 14th then 9th, missing finals only on %. At that point i reckon anyone with a balanced view would think the trajectory was about right and he was going ok in the W/L department.
In 2017 at round 16, we were in the 8 and had just given Richmond some sort of hiding. For some reason the wheels fell off at that point with the last part of the season and the next a trainwreck. We ended up missing finals by a game and % but i think it was a subpar result. 2018 was a trainwreck.
So on balance i think its more 1.5 years than 5 that have been subpar.

That Carlton game started the rot in my opinion. Was always going to be a long way back when the coach / club / media berated the players, as was done, and that has nothing to do with my belief of what was said (on field) at the time, but whatever transpired within the walls over those couple of weeks certainly had a destabilising effect. Confidence was knocked out of them, and I damn near guarantee that the bombers and hawks would have stuck phat

[Cairnsman]

Not sure how long an executive or senior manager in Basset's Seek organisation would last if they had the sub standard output that Richo has had for 5 years- there would be no propping up with other staff to try and get results..you would be long gone! No doubt Richo is only still there while the club sees out his contract.

every time i read someone say something like 5 years of Richo failure, i think its inaccurate. Richo took over a wooden spooner and went 18th, 14th then 9th, missing finals only on %. At that point i reckon anyone with a balanced view would think the trajectory was about right and he was going ok in the W/L department.
In 2017 at round 16, we were in the 8 and had just given Richmond some sort of hiding. For some reason the wheels fell off at that point with the last part of the season and the next a trainwreck. We ended up missing finals by a game and % but i think it was a subpar result. 2018 was a trainwreck.
So on balance i think its more 1.5 years than 5 that have been subpar.

That Carlton game started the rot in my opinion. Was always going to be a long way back when the coach / club / media berated the players, as was done, and that has nothing to do with my belief of what was said (on field) at the time, but whatever transpired within the walls over those couple of weeks certainly had a destabilising effect. Confidence was knocked out of them, and I damn near guarantee that the bombers and hawks would have stuck phat

I've heard this discussed on social media before and if there is any truth to it that players sooked it up then surely it is time to take accountability and put it behind them and get back to being hard and aggressive at the ball.

[Crossy66]

Not sure how long an executive or senior manager in Basset's Seek organisation would last if they had the sub standard output that Richo has had for 5 years- there would be no propping up with other staff to try and get results..you would be long gone! No doubt Richo is only still there while the club sees out his contract.

every time i read someone say something like 5 years of Richo failure, i think its inaccurate. Richo took over a wooden spooner and went 18th, 14th then 9th, missing finals only on %. At that point i reckon anyone with a balanced view would think the trajectory was about right and he was going ok in the W/L department.
In 2017 at round 16, we were in the 8 and had just given Richmond some sort of hiding. For some reason the wheels fell off at that point with the last part of the season and the next a trainwreck. We ended up missing finals by a game and % but i think it was a subpar result. 2018 was a trainwreck.
So on balance i think its more 1.5 years than 5 that have been subpar.

That Carlton game started the rot in my opinion. Was always going to be a long way back when the coach / club / media berated the players, as was done, and that has nothing to do with my belief of what was said (on field) at the time, but whatever transpired within the walls over those couple of weeks certainly had a destabilising effect. Confidence was knocked out of them, and I damn near guarantee that the bombers and hawks would have stuck phat

I think the Rnd 17 in 2017 game after the tiges was against the bombers. I think that was the infamous Hickey first game back where he got thrashed and we kicked 7.15. Similar scoring shots to the Dons but 50+ point loss. I reckon expectation was high and the disappointment would have been huge internally and cetainly was externally. Just didnt seem to bounce back after that.
Its one of the reasons for a bit of hope - we kicked ourselves out of so many many games in 2017 in particular, if we could have just fixed that one thing we could have given ourselves a chance to win quite a few more.