Two Ruckmen in 2019

[Crossy66]

Interesting listening to Clarkson talking on MMM radio this morning about the new rule changes and in particular the 6-6-6 set up.
In Hawks trialling, he observed that it really opened the game and expects really fast goals coming out of the centre. Ruckman can also grab the ball out of the ruck.
Clarkson flagged that he expects we will likely go back to two ruckman and that the ruck role will be more important than in recent years.
Probably great news for Marshall if thats the case

[Toy Saint]

Who was the idiot responsible for sending McEvoy to Hawthorn?

[skeptic]

Interesting listening to Clarkson talking on MMM radio this morning about the new rule changes and in particular the 6-6-6 set up.
In Hawks trialling, he observed that it really opened the game and expects really fast goals coming out of the centre. Ruckman can also grab the ball out of the ruck.
Clarkson flagged that he expects we will likely go back to two ruckman and that the ruck role will be more important than in recent years.
Probably great news for Marshall if thats the case

You’d hope so but we havent found found a way to fit two rucks into the same team for 5 years.

And we’ve just traded away our most consistently played ruck of that time with no replacement.

My concern is that we go back to a one ruck set up

[Crossy66]

Interesting listening to Clarkson talking on MMM radio this morning about the new rule changes and in particular the 6-6-6 set up.
In Hawks trialling, he observed that it really opened the game and expects really fast goals coming out of the centre. Ruckman can also grab the ball out of the ruck.
Clarkson flagged that he expects we will likely go back to two ruckman and that the ruck role will be more important than in recent years.
Probably great news for Marshall if thats the case

You’d hope so but we havent found found a way to fit two rucks into the same team for 5 years.

And we’ve just traded away our most consistently played ruck of that time with no replacement.

My concern is that we go back to a one ruck set up

I expect two rucks will be the norm this year so i reckon that gives Marshall a great opportunity thereby allowing us to fit in two rucks. I think the change in the game a few years ago have dictated us and many others only playing one ruck.
Trading Hickey was the right move for club and player. I dont think we'll miss him and, as a fringe player, he certainly wasnt worth the $650k we were paying him.

I expect Billy will step up this year. If not a 2020 contract looks shaky.

[samuraisaint]

I have been posting that we should have been doing this for years. It probably could've stopped Bruce and Acres getting injured last season if we had.
This will help Hickey ...oh, wait.

[samuraisaint]

Interesting listening to Clarkson talking on MMM radio this morning about the new rule changes and in particular the 6-6-6 set up.
In Hawks trialling, he observed that it really opened the game and expects really fast goals coming out of the centre. Ruckman can also grab the ball out of the ruck.
Clarkson flagged that he expects we will likely go back to two ruckman and that the ruck role will be more important than in recent years.
Probably great news for Marshall if thats the case

You’d hope so but we havent found found a way to fit two rucks into the same team for 5 years.

And we’ve just traded away our most consistently played ruck of that time with no replacement.

My concern is that we go back to a one ruck set up

I expect two rucks will be the norm this year so i reckon that gives Marshall a great opportunity thereby allowing us to fit in two rucks. I think the change in the game a few years ago have dictated us and many others only playing one ruck.
Trading Hickey was the right move for club and player. I dont think we'll miss him and, as a fringe player, he certainly wasnt worth the $650k we were paying him.

I expect Billy will step up this year. If not a 2020 contract looks shaky.

The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to. Maybe the problem isn't them. Maybe it is us.

[Crossy66]

Interesting listening to Clarkson talking on MMM radio this morning about the new rule changes and in particular the 6-6-6 set up.
In Hawks trialling, he observed that it really opened the game and expects really fast goals coming out of the centre. Ruckman can also grab the ball out of the ruck.
Clarkson flagged that he expects we will likely go back to two ruckman and that the ruck role will be more important than in recent years.
Probably great news for Marshall if thats the case

You’d hope so but we havent found found a way to fit two rucks into the same team for 5 years.

And we’ve just traded away our most consistently played ruck of that time with no replacement.

My concern is that we go back to a one ruck set up

I expect two rucks will be the norm this year so i reckon that gives Marshall a great opportunity thereby allowing us to fit in two rucks. I think the change in the game a few years ago have dictated us and many others only playing one ruck.
Trading Hickey was the right move for club and player. I dont think we'll miss him and, as a fringe player, he certainly wasnt worth the $650k we were paying him.

I expect Billy will step up this year. If not a 2020 contract looks shaky.

The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to. Maybe the problem isn't them. Maybe it is us.

which players?

[Joffa Burns]

I really like Marshall as a prospect.
Good size, good hands, decent long kick.
Taking time but hopefully worth the wait.

Can genuinely play as a key forward and a competent 2nd ruck alleviating the need to play guys there that cannot ruck at all.

Marshall would be a great back up to a good first ruck.
Hopefully Alabakis can develop over the next 3 or 4 seasons if Pierce doesn’t grab the role.

[samuraisaint]

Interesting listening to Clarkson talking on MMM radio this morning about the new rule changes and in particular the 6-6-6 set up.
In Hawks trialling, he observed that it really opened the game and expects really fast goals coming out of the centre. Ruckman can also grab the ball out of the ruck.
Clarkson flagged that he expects we will likely go back to two ruckman and that the ruck role will be more important than in recent years.
Probably great news for Marshall if thats the case

You’d hope so but we havent found found a way to fit two rucks into the same team for 5 years.

And we’ve just traded away our most consistently played ruck of that time with no replacement.

My concern is that we go back to a one ruck set up

I expect two rucks will be the norm this year so i reckon that gives Marshall a great opportunity thereby allowing us to fit in two rucks. I think the change in the game a few years ago have dictated us and many others only playing one ruck.
Trading Hickey was the right move for club and player. I dont think we'll miss him and, as a fringe player, he certainly wasnt worth the $650k we were paying him.

I expect Billy will step up this year. If not a 2020 contract looks shaky.

The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to. Maybe the problem isn't them. Maybe it is us.

which players?

McEvoy, Jamie Cripps, Mark Hutchings, Luke Ball, Brent Guerra, Matty Lappin and Dean Rice are the ones who immediately come to mind. We need to start developing players a lot better, then we will win premierships.

[Viscount Jeremiah]

We can't play 2 rucks if one is Longer so Pierce will need to set up

[saint64]

Interesting listening to Clarkson talking on MMM radio this morning about the new rule changes and in particular the 6-6-6 set up.
In Hawks trialling, he observed that it really opened the game and expects really fast goals coming out of the centre. Ruckman can also grab the ball out of the ruck.
Clarkson flagged that he expects we will likely go back to two ruckman and that the ruck role will be more important than in recent years.
Probably great news for Marshall if thats the case

You’d hope so but we havent found found a way to fit two rucks into the same team for 5 years.

And we’ve just traded away our most consistently played ruck of that time with no replacement.

My concern is that we go back to a one ruck set up

I expect two rucks will be the norm this year so i reckon that gives Marshall a great opportunity thereby allowing us to fit in two rucks. I think the change in the game a few years ago have dictated us and many others only playing one ruck.
Trading Hickey was the right move for club and player. I dont think we'll miss him and, as a fringe player, he certainly wasnt worth the $650k we were paying him.

I expect Billy will step up this year. If not a 2020 contract looks shaky.

The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to. Maybe the problem isn't them. Maybe it is us.

which players?

McEvoy, Jamie Cripps, Mark Hutchings, Luke Ball, Brent Guerra, Matty Lappin and Dean Rice are the ones who immediately come to mind. We need to start developing players a lot better, then we will win premierships.

I can add a few: Joel Smith, Spider, Hall, Russell Greene, Ian Stewart, Val Perovich

[Crossy66]

Interesting listening to Clarkson talking on MMM radio this morning about the new rule changes and in particular the 6-6-6 set up.
In Hawks trialling, he observed that it really opened the game and expects really fast goals coming out of the centre. Ruckman can also grab the ball out of the ruck.
Clarkson flagged that he expects we will likely go back to two ruckman and that the ruck role will be more important than in recent years.
Probably great news for Marshall if thats the case

You’d hope so but we havent found found a way to fit two rucks into the same team for 5 years.

And we’ve just traded away our most consistently played ruck of that time with no replacement.

My concern is that we go back to a one ruck set up

I expect two rucks will be the norm this year so i reckon that gives Marshall a great opportunity thereby allowing us to fit in two rucks. I think the change in the game a few years ago have dictated us and many others only playing one ruck.
Trading Hickey was the right move for club and player. I dont think we'll miss him and, as a fringe player, he certainly wasnt worth the $650k we were paying him.

I expect Billy will step up this year. If not a 2020 contract looks shaky.

The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to. Maybe the problem isn't them. Maybe it is us.

which players?

McEvoy, Jamie Cripps, Mark Hutchings, Luke Ball, Brent Guerra, Matty Lappin and Dean Rice are the ones who immediately come to mind. We need to start developing players a lot better, then we will win premierships.

I can add a few: Joel Smith, Spider, Hall, Russell Greene, Ian Stewart, Val Perovich

mmm.. based on that list, i dont think i would say "The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to"
McEvoy I agree, Cripps we had no choice, Luke ball was 9 years ago and again we didnt have much choice, Guerra was around 15 years ago, Lappin about 20 and Rice around 25 years ago. Not seeing this as a problem! pretty much one player six years ago we got wrong. Perhaps our problem is no one want to leave?
As for Stewie, thats 50 years ago!

[skeptic]

Just for the record Crossy,

I don’t have a particular affinity for Hickey. I rated him higher than Longer but didn’t/don’t feel either was up to the necessary standard.

However... given the ??? on Longer’s ability and his injury proness, I’d have thought that if you were going to get rid of Tom, common sense surely dictates you’d replace him.
Especially if we have little faith in Pierce too which surely is the case given how little they’ve played him over several 5 years

I can only deduce that the admin are resigned to the rucks being a problem this season in what may be considered a transition year for the club

On the issue of two rucks... it still only works if one to is able to play key position somewhere... whether that’s key forward or an extra back etc.
I agree Marshall is suited well to the task but Richo still has been reluctant to use such a model even when it was clearly the most sensible tact to take over the last three years given our list.

Pierce should have played more games with Hickey/Longer and Marshall should have been more consistently selected earlier in the year.

We certainly gained nothing by playing Bruce, Gilbert, Acres, Paddy and Steele in the ruck

[Crossy66]

Just for the record Crossy,

I don’t have a particular affinity for Hickey. I rated him higher than Longer but didn’t/don’t feel either was up to the necessary standard.

However... given the ??? on Longer’s ability and his injury proness, I’d have thought that if you were going to get rid of Tom, common sense surely dictates you’d replace him.
Especially if we have little faith in Pierce too which surely is the case given how little they’ve played him over several 5 years

I can only deduce that the admin are resigned to the rucks being a problem this season in what may be considered a transition year for the club

On the issue of two rucks... it still only works if one to is able to play key position somewhere... whether that’s key forward or an extra back etc.
I agree Marshall is suited well to the task but Richo still has been reluctant to use such a model even when it was clearly the most sensible tact to take over the last three years given our list.

Pierce should have played more games with Hickey/Longer and Marshall should have been more consistently selected earlier in the year.

We certainly gained nothing by playing Bruce, Gilbert, Acres, Paddy and Steele in the ruck

Pretty clear over the last few seasons that the coaches didnt rate Hickey.
The club had a crack at Lycett, who would have cost them similar money, but he preferred Power. Indicates the club agrees with you that we were short a ruckman.

I dont think it matters what Richo and most other coaches have done in the past, from what Clarkson is saying, the rule changes will result in two ruckmen playing in 2019. My original point was that under 2018 rules, Marshall was competing with Paddy, Bruce, King, Battle, Membury etc for a key forward spot. In 2019, his chances are stronger if we have to have that second ruck.

[David-Lee]

I predict exactly what croosy is eluding to I believe? That Marshall gets a lot of my time in ruck, I'll go further to say Longer comes out like a house on fire then gets injured and we see Pierce get 4-6 games and combined with Marshall the 2 fight well. I don't think anyone who has watched Pierce play orsat down and chatted with him doubt he has the desire and that he is developing and gaining every year. He is 100% a classic slow grow Ruck that takes time but if he gets a chance this year could be the one - but saddled with Longer I don't see it.

[saintsRrising]

The club had a crack at Lycett,

Am I on the only one that thinks this shows that the club is pretty clueless about rating ruckman?

Lycett simply put is a pretty average ruckman. A long term deal on good money made no sense.


I do understand the Saints had to lose Hickey as he was the only player that we could lose that another club wanted that would give us the pic to get But getting Lycett in even if he wasa free agent made little sense to me.

PS: Personally I am not that phased about not having a good ruckman ready to go for 2019 as

1/ I see 20019 as a building year. And with King and Bytel recruited injured I am sure the club does too

2/History that if you get good enough to be a flag contender that you can land a ruckman for your 22 from another club pretty easily. Indeed rare has been the Premiership Team in recent years who did not have a ruckman who had previously played at another AFL Club in it.

[ROLS-LEE]

The club had a crack at Lycett,

Am I on the only one that thinks this shows that the club is pretty clueless about rating ruckman?

Lycett simply put is a pretty average ruckman. A long term deal on good money made no sense.


I do understand the Saints had to lose Hickey as he was the only player that we could lose that another club wanted that would give us the pic to get But getting Lycett in even if he wasa free agent made little sense to me.

PS: Personally I am not that phased about not having a good ruckman ready to go for 2019 as

1/ I see 20019 as a building year. And with King and Bytel recruited injured I am sure the club does too

2/History that if you get good enough to be a flag contender that you can land a ruckman for your 22 from another club pretty easily. Indeed rare has been the Premiership Team in recent years who did not have a ruckman who had previously played at another AFL Club in it.

Bar hawks in 08, all premiership winning teams had a formidable ruck division.

[Crossy66]

The club had a crack at Lycett,

Am I on the only one that thinks this shows that the club is pretty clueless about rating ruckman?

Lycett simply put is a pretty average ruckman. A long term deal on good money made no sense.


I do understand the Saints had to lose Hickey as he was the only player that we could lose that another club wanted that would give us the pic to get But getting Lycett in even if he wasa free agent made little sense to me.

PS: Personally I am not that phased about not having a good ruckman ready to go for 2019 as

1/ I see 20019 as a building year. And with King and Bytel recruited injured I am sure the club does too

2/History that if you get good enough to be a flag contender that you can land a ruckman for your 22 from another club pretty easily. Indeed rare has been the Premiership Team in recent years who did not have a ruckman who had previously played at another AFL Club in it.

I'm also happy we missed on him.
I still have faith billy will step up, but it has to be this year.

[saint6709]

The club had a crack at Lycett,

Am I on the only one that thinks this shows that the club is pretty clueless about rating ruckman?

Lycett simply put is a pretty average ruckman. A long term deal on good money made no sense.


I do understand the Saints had to lose Hickey as he was the only player that we could lose that another club wanted that would give us the pic to get But getting Lycett in even if he wasa free agent made little sense to me.

PS: Personally I am not that phased about not having a good ruckman ready to go for 2019 as

1/ I see 20019 as a building year. And with King and Bytel recruited injured I am sure the club does too

2/History that if you get good enough to be a flag contender that you can land a ruckman for your 22 from another club pretty easily. Indeed rare has been the Premiership Team in recent years who did not have a ruckman who had previously played at another AFL Club in it.

I'm also happy we missed on him.
I still have faith billy will step up, but it has to be this year.

I still think we should have had a crack at preuss

[saintsRrising]

The club had a crack at Lycett,

Am I on the only one that thinks this shows that the club is pretty clueless about rating ruckman?

Lycett simply put is a pretty average ruckman. A long term deal on good money made no sense.


I do understand the Saints had to lose Hickey as he was the only player that we could lose that another club wanted that would give us the pic to get But getting Lycett in even if he wasa free agent made little sense to me.

PS: Personally I am not that phased about not having a good ruckman ready to go for 2019 as

1/ I see 20019 as a building year. And with King and Bytel recruited injured I am sure the club does too

2/History that if you get good enough to be a flag contender that you can land a ruckman for your 22 from another club pretty easily. Indeed rare has been the Premiership Team in recent years who did not have a ruckman who had previously played at another AFL Club in it.

Bar hawks in 08, all premiership winning teams had a formidable ruck division.

My point was that clubs who have won flags in recent years have mainly done so with a ruck on the day who was recruited from another club not long before they won the flag.

Hawks have had a stream of rucks from other clubs.
Tigers
Dogs...even if they did buy him in as an overpriced FF
WC last year had their second ruck from the Cats
Pies Jolly
Swans Mumford and Jolly
Cats Ottens
et etc..

It has been a lot more fruitful than the draft your own approach. So build the rest of you team and worry about the ruck division last. We are not going to win the flag in 2019 and so again I am not fussed at all that our ruck division is not flash. It has some possibles and that is ok by me while we get the rest of the team right. Who know maybe in several years big Sam and Marshall may come good, and if so good as that may be when the rest of the team is right too.


Now the Saints have of course picked up Hickey, Longer etc. But we made the mistake of getting them too early. We would have IMO been better to build our midfield class and then go out and get a ready made ruck. History shows that this has worked time and time again.

[Crossy66]

The club had a crack at Lycett,

Am I on the only one that thinks this shows that the club is pretty clueless about rating ruckman?

Lycett simply put is a pretty average ruckman. A long term deal on good money made no sense.


I do understand the Saints had to lose Hickey as he was the only player that we could lose that another club wanted that would give us the pic to get But getting Lycett in even if he wasa free agent made little sense to me.

PS: Personally I am not that phased about not having a good ruckman ready to go for 2019 as

1/ I see 20019 as a building year. And with King and Bytel recruited injured I am sure the club does too

2/History that if you get good enough to be a flag contender that you can land a ruckman for your 22 from another club pretty easily. Indeed rare has been the Premiership Team in recent years who did not have a ruckman who had previously played at another AFL Club in it.

Bar hawks in 08, all premiership winning teams had a formidable ruck division.

My point was that clubs who have won flags in recent years have mainly done so with a ruck on the day who was recruited from another club not long before they won the flag.

Hawks have had a stream of rucks from other clubs.
Tigers
Dogs...even if they did buy him in as an overpriced FF
WC last year had their second ruck from the Cats
Pies Jolly
Swans Mumford and Jolly
Cats Ottens
et etc..

It has been a lot more fruitful than the draft your own approach. So build the rest of you team and worry about the ruck division last. We are not going to win the flag in 2019 and so again I am not fussed at all that our ruck division is not flash. It has some possibles and that is ok by me while we get the rest of the team right. Who know maybe in several years big Sam and Marshall may come good, and if so good as that may be when the rest of the team is right too.


Now the Saints have of course picked up Hickey, Longer etc. But we made the mistake of getting them too early. We would have IMO been better to build our midfield class and then go out and get a ready made ruck. History shows that this has worked time and time again.

With few exceptions, most ruckmen dont hit their straps until around 25, so i would agree that we should get the rest of the team right and add a ruckman as the cherry on top

[sunsaint]

I still think we should have had a crack at preuss

we probably did - we have had a crack at everyone on the market...
and agree with sRr Lycett made no sense in that his stats were on a par with Hickey -
We just needed to trade "anyone" with some value to another club and pray the duo of Pierce/Marshall come on in 2019

[samuraisaint]

Interesting listening to Clarkson talking on MMM radio this morning about the new rule changes and in particular the 6-6-6 set up.
In Hawks trialling, he observed that it really opened the game and expects really fast goals coming out of the centre. Ruckman can also grab the ball out of the ruck.
Clarkson flagged that he expects we will likely go back to two ruckman and that the ruck role will be more important than in recent years.
Probably great news for Marshall if thats the case

You’d hope so but we havent found found a way to fit two rucks into the same team for 5 years.

And we’ve just traded away our most consistently played ruck of that time with no replacement.

My concern is that we go back to a one ruck set up

I expect two rucks will be the norm this year so i reckon that gives Marshall a great opportunity thereby allowing us to fit in two rucks. I think the change in the game a few years ago have dictated us and many others only playing one ruck.
Trading Hickey was the right move for club and player. I dont think we'll miss him and, as a fringe player, he certainly wasnt worth the $650k we were paying him.

I expect Billy will step up this year. If not a 2020 contract looks shaky.

The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to. Maybe the problem isn't them. Maybe it is us.

which players?

McEvoy, Jamie Cripps, Mark Hutchings, Luke Ball, Brent Guerra, Matty Lappin and Dean Rice are the ones who immediately come to mind. We need to start developing players a lot better, then we will win premierships.

I can add a few: Joel Smith, Spider, Hall, Russell Greene, Ian Stewart, Val Perovich

mmm.. based on that list, i dont think i would say "The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to"
McEvoy I agree, Cripps we had no choice, Luke ball was 9 years ago and again we didnt have much choice, Guerra was around 15 years ago, Lappin about 20 and Rice around 25 years ago. Not seeing this as a problem! pretty much one player six years ago we got wrong. Perhaps our problem is no one want to leave?
As for Stewie, thats 50 years ago!

Cripps we gave to the eagles for basically zip - and they have never reciprocated, unlike the Hawks and the Swans who at least will repay in kind. Guerra should never have been traded to Hawthorn. He became a premiership player for them. Ball may have been the difference in two grand finals - so I don't really get your point. Rice was treated badly, left and became an important link player in a Carlton premiership. Even guys like Hutchings in last years Eagles flag - another example. I still remember Russell Greene getting traded for Mark Scott, a very good full forward in our reserves.
I hope Billy does kick on, and one of the other three ruckmen is good enough to play a hundred games for us as a ruckman. We'll see.

[Crossy66]

Interesting listening to Clarkson talking on MMM radio this morning about the new rule changes and in particular the 6-6-6 set up.
In Hawks trialling, he observed that it really opened the game and expects really fast goals coming out of the centre. Ruckman can also grab the ball out of the ruck.
Clarkson flagged that he expects we will likely go back to two ruckman and that the ruck role will be more important than in recent years.
Probably great news for Marshall if thats the case

You’d hope so but we havent found found a way to fit two rucks into the same team for 5 years.

And we’ve just traded away our most consistently played ruck of that time with no replacement.

My concern is that we go back to a one ruck set up

I expect two rucks will be the norm this year so i reckon that gives Marshall a great opportunity thereby allowing us to fit in two rucks. I think the change in the game a few years ago have dictated us and many others only playing one ruck.
Trading Hickey was the right move for club and player. I dont think we'll miss him and, as a fringe player, he certainly wasnt worth the $650k we were paying him.

I expect Billy will step up this year. If not a 2020 contract looks shaky.

The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to. Maybe the problem isn't them. Maybe it is us.

which players?

McEvoy, Jamie Cripps, Mark Hutchings, Luke Ball, Brent Guerra, Matty Lappin and Dean Rice are the ones who immediately come to mind. We need to start developing players a lot better, then we will win premierships.

I can add a few: Joel Smith, Spider, Hall, Russell Greene, Ian Stewart, Val Perovich

mmm.. based on that list, i dont think i would say "The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to"
McEvoy I agree, Cripps we had no choice, Luke ball was 9 years ago and again we didnt have much choice, Guerra was around 15 years ago, Lappin about 20 and Rice around 25 years ago. Not seeing this as a problem! pretty much one player six years ago we got wrong. Perhaps our problem is no one want to leave?
As for Stewie, thats 50 years ago!

Cripps we gave to the eagles for basically zip - and they have never reciprocated, unlike the Hawks and the Swans who at least will repay in kind. Guerra should never have been traded to Hawthorn. He became a premiership player for them. Ball may have been the difference in two grand finals - so I don't really get your point. Rice was treated badly, left and became an important link player in a Carlton premiership. Even guys like Hutchings in last years Eagles flag - another example. I still remember Russell Greene getting traded for Mark Scott, a very good full forward in our reserves.
I hope Billy does kick on, and one of the other three ruckmen is good enough to play a hundred games for us as a ruckman. We'll see.

My point was with your statement :
"The problem is we keep trading away players who become very handy for the clubs they go to"
I dont agree thats a problem.
The players you mentioned went back 25 years ago so not a problem today.
Mcevoy the exception and that was a mistake.
We had no choice with cripps.He was going home regardless
I hated luke ball leaving but in the end he also walked albeit for different reasons.
Mcevoy is the on my one we truly traded away, he was more than handy and didn't want to go. So one player in a decade is not to bad.

[SinCitySainter]

The player that stings the most is s actually Lynch in my mind. He has turned into a key player for Adelaide and only left because Ross wouldn' t give him a shot.