2 and 4

[samoht]

RL was 0-10

??????
Edit:
Just realised you were talking about his time at Freo.

I should have been clearer, but I had complete faith in you (I knew you'd cotton on)!

[dragit]

Let me know when cho gets his career average up to 58% W/L and he has coached us to 20 finals and a bunch of grannies.

5 years and absolutely zero runs on the board and we play like a bunch of headless chooks under his instructions.

[samoht]

Let me know when cho gets his career average up to 58% W/L and he has coached us to 20 finals and a bunch of grannies.

5 years and absolutely zero runs on the board and we play like a bunch of headless chooks under his instructions.

Maybe, AR is not a career coach/snake-oil salesman who jumps sinking ships (which, in St Kilda's case, RL torpedoed himself, as it turns out, after first weighing it down with recycled ballast), to escape going down with them - and insinuates himself into clubs with strong lists (or lists that are on the rise) to keep his W/L percentage looking good?

Thankfully, AR is not at the 0-10 stage yet - he hasn't plumbed RL's depths just yet (how many coaches have had a 0-10 start to a season? - let me know!) - but with our recruiting being what it is, he might get there soon (his detractors can only hope).

[dragit]

Thankfully, AR is not at the 0-10 stage yet

You must have missed last season where we won 4 games after richo declared us in the premiership window. His second 4 win season in 5... the bloke will shortly end his career as the worst performing coach in the history of the sport to reach 100+

Buckley, hardwick, Lyon... you guys are barking up the wrong tree... ^ these guys have had some form of success, nothing in common with cho whatsoever.

[Cairnsman]

And perhaps he’s willing to learn and adapt from his mistakes

This is probably the biggest leaver Alan can pull in 2019.

Players are always being asked to develop and learn from mistakes, the same opportunity should be given to head coaches and thankfully the admin are giving Alan an opportunity to grow with the club.

Hardwick and Buckley seemed to re-invent themselves when given the opportunity and the results spoke for themselves.

I think Hardwick and Buckley "re-invented themselves" on the back of some good recruiting. There needs to be a confluence of growth from all areas - coaching, recruiting, players (as well as the admin planning, overseeing and fostering/driving this growth)... for it to all come together.

I hear this point but IMO, the things that I listed earlier in the thread regarding areas of improvement (which in my opinion is why we struggled this season) are not talent issues. They’re coaching ones.

It won’t matter if King is the next Buddy, if he’s at the 50m mark and we kick the ball to a 3 on 1 in the goal square and Gresh in the 1... our recruiting doesn’t matter.

If we recruit 3 talented mids but they play at Sandy because we prefer to play an injured Armitage etc etc it doesn’t matter who we get.

I agree yes talent is an issue but how we play and develop them is an equally big one

How do you know Alan deliberately played Armo injured and what other players did Alan deliberately play injured other than Armo? and can I ask how do you know Alan did so deliberately over other viable options?

We're talking future. That's an example of something if it happened it would bother me.

The notion of the critique came from the revelation that Weller played the majority of 2017 with an ankle injury that was hampering his performance and many of us were miffed at his continual selection at the time.

It was also reported last year that Longer got injured in rd1 and was selected to play through vs Nth in rd2 to only aggravate the injury further and miss the second half + weeks when we had 3 fully fit ruckmen playing in the reserves

Is the context correct, you are making it sound like Alan forced those players to play injured, isn't it the case if a player puts his hand up to play then he has to share accountability for a poor performance if he is carrying an injury or if he further injures himself?

[DJ Higgins]

One more bad year ahead but I am expecting a corner to be turned towards the end of the his season. More guys getting over fifty games, we have recruited experience in hanneberry so that should start to rub off, personally the other drafts excluding king are long shots so expecting little so open for a nice surprise

[skeptic]

And perhaps he’s willing to learn and adapt from his mistakes

This is probably the biggest leaver Alan can pull in 2019.

Players are always being asked to develop and learn from mistakes, the same opportunity should be given to head coaches and thankfully the admin are giving Alan an opportunity to grow with the club.

Hardwick and Buckley seemed to re-invent themselves when given the opportunity and the results spoke for themselves.

I think Hardwick and Buckley "re-invented themselves" on the back of some good recruiting. There needs to be a confluence of growth from all areas - coaching, recruiting, players (as well as the admin planning, overseeing and fostering/driving this growth)... for it to all come together.

I hear this point but IMO, the things that I listed earlier in the thread regarding areas of improvement (which in my opinion is why we struggled this season) are not talent issues. They’re coaching ones.

It won’t matter if King is the next Buddy, if he’s at the 50m mark and we kick the ball to a 3 on 1 in the goal square and Gresh in the 1... our recruiting doesn’t matter.

If we recruit 3 talented mids but they play at Sandy because we prefer to play an injured Armitage etc etc it doesn’t matter who we get.

I agree yes talent is an issue but how we play and develop them is an equally big one

How do you know Alan deliberately played Armo injured and what other players did Alan deliberately play injured other than Armo? and can I ask how do you know Alan did so deliberately over other viable options?

We're talking future. That's an example of something if it happened it would bother me.

The notion of the critique came from the revelation that Weller played the majority of 2017 with an ankle injury that was hampering his performance and many of us were miffed at his continual selection at the time.

It was also reported last year that Longer got injured in rd1 and was selected to play through vs Nth in rd2 to only aggravate the injury further and miss the second half + weeks when we had 3 fully fit ruckmen playing in the reserves

Is the context correct, you are making it sound like Alan forced those players to play injured, isn't it the case if a player puts his hand up to play then he has to share accountability for a poor performance if he is carrying an injury or if he further injures himself?

I dont mean it to come across that way.

The onus however is on the coach to pick the team not the players.

You can understand the Longer situation as a once off but the Weller one was 15+ weeks of very average form... though I guess this might also come back to my other point about a selection policy based more on form opposed to less transparent criteria.
I’ll point out however that there was at least one instance where Paddy played and clearly wasn’t match fit (heavily criticised here at the time), it happened with Roberton a few years ago when he had an ankle/foot injury or something... i vaguely remember some controversy about playing a concussed player too.

There’s also been a few instances where players have been rushed back from longer injury lay offs and played whilst lacking match fitness resulting in them getting badly exposed. I apologise for not being able to be more specific but I remember complaining about all of these things a few times already but haven’t specifically kept a list

My overall point is that whilst everyone can make the odd mistake... IMO it’s a noticeable aspect of Richo’s style

[samoht]

Thankfully, AR is not at the 0-10 stage yet

You must have missed last season where we won 4 games after richo declared us in the premiership window. His second 4 win season in 5... the bloke will shortly end his career as the worst performing coach in the history of the sport to reach 100+

Buckley, hardwick, Lyon... you guys are barking up the wrong tree... ^ these guys have had some form of success, nothing in common with cho whatsoever.

Richo overestimated where the team was at and didn't take into account the harder draw - and there's no way he would have expected the injuries. We turned over more players than any other team in 2018 - something like 34 players. Players coming in an out of the team and returning underdone, etc...new players being brought up to speed and trying to gel with established players - it's very disruptive, and you're playing below strength. It's not ideal.

It's all to do with list, and the circumstances - where the list is at any given point in time relative to other team's lists - that's the only way you can make sense of the fact a 19-0 coach and a minor premier coach one season can become a 0-10 coach the next.
Same coach + different circumstances = different results - and sometimes vastly different results (from 19-0 to 0-10 - that sort of difference, in RL's case).
That's why you need to recruit the strongest list possible - make good recruiting decisions!

[sunsaint]

ahhh the old list
that magical mystical elusive list

I always wonder how long a coach has to be in the top job before it can be considered a clubs list is of his making.
Yes I get that decision mistakes are made along the way - but the look, the ability and the style of player must be considered of the coaches making after 4-5 years

Which brings me to another point - it worries me when a club brings in some "guru" list manager to oversee and "manage" the list, especially when said person has had zero experience - just another chief in the mix to layer the blame.

[samoht]

ahhh the old list
that magical mystical elusive list

I always wonder how long a coach has to be in the top job before it can be considered a clubs list is of his making.
Yes I get that decision mistakes are made along the way - but the look, the ability and the style of player must be considered of the coaches making after 4-5 years

Which brings me to another point - it worries me when a club brings in some "guru" list manager to oversee and "manage" the list, especially when said person has had zero experience - just another chief in the mix to layer the blame.

OK, forget the list for one minute. How does a team like Freo go from being a minor premier in 2015, with 17 wins and 5 losses to a bottom of the ladder team in 2016, with only 4 wins - with the same coach on board?
Let's forget the 19-0 and 0-10 winning and losing streaks of said coach for the moment- which in itself is very telling. It tells me that a coach is like a cork in the ocean - is not the main determining factor, just a minor one; that there are much bigger ones at play.
We see week in week out, when two even teams meet, and one star player is missing from a lineup, how that immediately affects the betting odds and the actual result of the game.
The health and strength of the list relative to other teams is a much more important deciding factor - e.g. Dustin Martin, for instance, carrying an injury in last year's final.

[dragit]

is not the main determining factor, not even a minor one;

Sure thing boss, the head coach isn't even a minor factor in a teams performance.

Your posts tend to get more ridiculous the longer threads unravel.

Most pundits had Fremantle bottom four in 2018 because their list is awful yet they still managed twice as many wins as us.

[samoht]

is not the main determining factor, not even a minor one;

Sure thing boss, the head coach isn't even a minor factor in a teams performance.

Your posts tend to get more ridiculous the longer threads unravel.

Most pundits had Fremantle bottom four in 2018 because their list is awful yet they still managed twice as many wins as us.

(I changed it to ..."just a minor one" - maybe I did get carried away).

Well same head coach, same team (freo) - in charge of the minor premier in 2015 (freo) with 17 wins, and a bottom of the rung team in 2016 with just 4 wins (freo) - and coaching one team to a 19-0 winning streak and another team to a 0-10 losing streak and worst start for an AFL team in decades. Now over to you - for an explanation of all this. How does a head coach go from being a world-beater to useless and irrelevant, year to year - or even from one year to the next?

Clearly, there must be much bigger things at play - and don't forget there's an opposing AFL coach too (we're not talking about a pork chop) - and it's never just head coach vs head coach - there are teams of assistant coaches involved, too.
Recruiting is the key and where you can make the most difference (IMHO).
Anyway, enough said ... my last post on this topic (and I've overdone it again in this thread - I enjoy arguing/discussing things, but I do get carried away - and apologies for that).

[Cairnsman]

is not the main determining factor, not even a minor one;

Sure thing boss, the head coach isn't even a minor factor in a teams performance.

Your posts tend to get more ridiculous the longer threads unravel.

Most pundits had Fremantle bottom four in 2018 because their list is awful yet they still managed twice as many wins as us.

and you are morphing into Con, do you take your own wooden fruit box to the footy

[dragit]

is not the main determining factor, not even a minor one;

Sure thing boss, the head coach isn't even a minor factor in a teams performance.

Your posts tend to get more ridiculous the longer threads unravel.

Most pundits had Fremantle bottom four in 2018 because their list is awful yet they still managed twice as many wins as us.

and you are morphing into Con, do you take your own wooden fruit box to the footy

Con called out a lot of bulls*** so I'll take that as a compliment

Samoht has withdrawn his comment and apologised, which I have duly accepted.

Do you take a bottle of quaaludes to the footy CM?

[samoht]

Con called out a lot of bulls*** so I'll take that as a compliment

I thought I was doing that regarding coaches - destroying the myth of "super-duper coaches".

[Cairnsman]

is not the main determining factor, not even a minor one;

Sure thing boss, the head coach isn't even a minor factor in a teams performance.

Your posts tend to get more ridiculous the longer threads unravel.

Most pundits had Fremantle bottom four in 2018 because their list is awful yet they still managed twice as many wins as us.

and you are morphing into Con, do you take your own wooden fruit box to the footy

Con called out a lot of bulls*** so I'll take that as a compliment

Samoht has withdrawn his comment and apologised, which I have duly accepted.

Do you take a bottle of quaaludes to the footy CM?

Ludes are like St Kilda premierships, very difficult to get your hands on, if I had a bottle of them I probably wouldn't go to the footy with them.

Con became irrelevant because of the way he called BS, thinking music please...

[Scollop]

Well same head coach, same team (freo) - in charge of the minor premier in 2015 (freo) with 17 wins, and a bottom of the rung team in 2016 with just 4 wins (freo) - and coaching one team to a 19-0 winning streak and another team to a 0-10 losing streak and worst start for an AFL team in decades. Now over to you - for an explanation of all this.

How does a head coach go from being a world-beater to useless and irrelevant, year to year - or even from one year to the next?

Ross got found out. He was a fraud...pretending to be a great coach

His players...as well as the rest of the footy world saw a particular pattern of losses emerge in finals which put to rest whether Ross (and his gameplan at that time) was good enough to get the job done in September. He revealed that as a coach he had glaring deficiencies and the players started doubting him when Ross repeated his tired old messages in 2016. The players had lost belief.

He's trying to reinvent himself these days and he is lucky enough to be at a very rich and well run footy club who has managed to draft a lot of top end talent. He may get another chance at finals and it will be interesting to see the evolution of the young team he has at his disposal

As far as Cho is concerned, I think it has always been a case of 'hoping' that he was the right guy rather than any tangible evidence over the last 5 years that he cam manage and motivate and be creative enough to inspire our players to any sort of greatness. I just think he hasn't shown that he's got what it takes and he never will

[Scollop]

ahhh the old list
that magical mystical elusive list

I always wonder how long a coach has to be in the top job before it can be considered a clubs list is of his making.
Yes I get that decision mistakes are made along the way - but the look, the ability and the style of player must be considered of the coaches making after 4-5 years

Which brings me to another point - it worries me when a club brings in some "guru" list manager to oversee and "manage" the list, especially when said person has had zero experience - just another chief in the mix to layer the blame.

Who do you blame? That's the 64 million dollar question? After we stumbled over the line in Round 1 this year (due to some Jack Steven g&d&magic) we were red hot favourites in round 2 in a marquee game on Good Friday against North.

North were coming off a loss to Gold Coast and also had to travel up to far North Queensland as well as the fact that I think we beat them easily in late 2017 (with Joey injured and Roo ineffective). Instead of seeing an invigorated and confident Saints I saw the worst display of football in a half that I had seen from a Saints side for a long time.

There were no excuses for the crap that we witnessed that day and it was embarrassing when you consider how important the day was in terms of exposure for the footyclub and how important the day was to set up our year. All the excuses that have been communicated through out this year were unaivalable that day because it was before we had a string of injuries and the blame had to be mainly on the head coach.

Unfortunately the Saints gameplan and style and the team in general in 2018 was indicative of the style we'd developed under Cho. The anger started after this putrid display on Good Friday and continued after we heard the same excuses week after week and loss after loss from Richo as another wasted year went by.

The anger turned into vitriol because heads ( or at least the 'head' coach) needed to roll but the CEO was hamstrung.... because as Con put it; the board had made "an administrative error". I just don't know how anyone in the head coaches job in a high profile sport survives such poor results

[Cairnsman]

ahhh the old list
that magical mystical elusive list

I always wonder how long a coach has to be in the top job before it can be considered a clubs list is of his making.
Yes I get that decision mistakes are made along the way - but the look, the ability and the style of player must be considered of the coaches making after 4-5 years

Which brings me to another point - it worries me when a club brings in some "guru" list manager to oversee and "manage" the list, especially when said person has had zero experience - just another chief in the mix to layer the blame.

Who do you blame? That's the 64 million dollar question? After we stumbled over the line in Round 1 this year (due to some Jack Steven g&d&magic) we were red hot favourites in round 2 in a marquee game on Good Friday against North.

North were coming off a loss to Gold Coast and also had to travel up to far North Queensland as well as the fact that I think we beat them easily in late 2017 (with Joey injured and Roo ineffective). Instead of seeing an invigorated and confident Saints I saw the worst display of football in a half that I had seen from a Saints side for a long time.

There were no excuses for the crap that we witnessed that day and it was embarrassing when you consider how important the day was in terms of exposure for the footyclub and how important the day was to set up our year. All the excuses that have been communicated through out this year were unaivalable that day because it was before we had a string of injuries and the blame had to be mainly on the head coach.

Unfortunately the Saints gameplan and style and the team in general in 2018 was indicative of the style we'd developed under Cho. The anger started after this putrid display on Good Friday and continued after we heard the same excuses week after week and loss after loss from Richo as another wasted year went by.

The anger turned into vitriol because heads ( or at least the 'head' coach) needed to roll but the CEO was hamstrung.... because as Con put it; the board had made "an administrative error". I just don't know how anyone in the head coaches job in a high profile sport survives such poor results

I didn't think anyone took Con seriously, well there ya go.

[samuraisaint]

ahhh the old list
that magical mystical elusive list

I always wonder how long a coach has to be in the top job before it can be considered a clubs list is of his making.
Yes I get that decision mistakes are made along the way - but the look, the ability and the style of player must be considered of the coaches making after 4-5 years

Which brings me to another point - it worries me when a club brings in some "guru" list manager to oversee and "manage" the list, especially when said person has had zero experience - just another chief in the mix to layer the blame.

Who do you blame? That's the 64 million dollar question? After we stumbled over the line in Round 1 this year (due to some Jack Steven g&d&magic) we were red hot favourites in round 2 in a marquee game on Good Friday against North.

North were coming off a loss to Gold Coast and also had to travel up to far North Queensland as well as the fact that I think we beat them easily in late 2017 (with Joey injured and Roo ineffective). Instead of seeing an invigorated and confident Saints I saw the worst display of football in a half that I had seen from a Saints side for a long time.

There were no excuses for the crap that we witnessed that day and it was embarrassing when you consider how important the day was in terms of exposure for the footyclub and how important the day was to set up our year. All the excuses that have been communicated through out this year were unaivalable that day because it was before we had a string of injuries and the blame had to be mainly on the head coach.

Unfortunately the Saints gameplan and style and the team in general in 2018 was indicative of the style we'd developed under Cho. The anger started after this putrid display on Good Friday and continued after we heard the same excuses week after week and loss after loss from Richo as another wasted year went by.

The anger turned into vitriol because heads ( or at least the 'head' coach) needed to roll but the CEO was hamstrung.... because as Con put it; the board had made "an administrative error". I just don't know how anyone in the head coaches job in a high profile sport survives such poor results

Agreed re: Good Friday match. And as I and others have posted, despite 10 or 11 players traded, delisted or retired, 21 of the 22 who played in that team that day are still on the list. That match was arguably the most costly for the club in terms of exposure and marketing for the year, perhaps longer, and we served that up. Thinking back on it now, it's unbelievable how heads didn't roll really.

[samoht]

ahhh the old list
that magical mystical elusive list

I always wonder how long a coach has to be in the top job before it can be considered a clubs list is of his making.
Yes I get that decision mistakes are made along the way - but the look, the ability and the style of player must be considered of the coaches making after 4-5 years

Which brings me to another point - it worries me when a club brings in some "guru" list manager to oversee and "manage" the list, especially when said person has had zero experience - just another chief in the mix to layer the blame.

Who do you blame? That's the 64 million dollar question? After we stumbled over the line in Round 1 this year (due to some Jack Steven g&d&magic) we were red hot favourites in round 2 in a marquee game on Good Friday against North.

North were coming off a loss to Gold Coast and also had to travel up to far North Queensland as well as the fact that I think we beat them easily in late 2017 (with Joey injured and Roo ineffective). Instead of seeing an invigorated and confident Saints I saw the worst display of football in a half that I had seen from a Saints side for a long time.

There were no excuses for the crap that we witnessed that day and it was embarrassing when you consider how important the day was in terms of exposure for the footyclub and how important the day was to set up our year. All the excuses that have been communicated through out this year were unaivalable that day because it was before we had a string of injuries and the blame had to be mainly on the head coach.

Unfortunately the Saints gameplan and style and the team in general in 2018 was indicative of the style we'd developed under Cho. The anger started after this putrid display on Good Friday and continued after we heard the same excuses week after week and loss after loss from Richo as another wasted year went by.

The anger turned into vitriol because heads ( or at least the 'head' coach) needed to roll but the CEO was hamstrung.... because as Con put it; the board had made "an administrative error". I just don't know how anyone in the head coaches job in a high profile sport survives such poor results

Agreed re: Good Friday match. And as I and others have posted, despite 10 or 11 players traded, delisted or retired, 21 of the 22 who played in that team that day are still on the list. That match was arguably the most costly for the club in terms of exposure and marketing for the year, perhaps longer, and we served that up. Thinking back on it now, it's unbelievable how heads didn't roll really.

Our F grade ruckman, Longer, had 1 possession that day (the ball might have accidentally scraped his foot on the way past), while Goldstein did as he pleased - and Ben Brown kicked 6 goals and destroyed Nathan Brown or was it Carlisle? ...while Membrey and Mccartin were held goal-less. Not a good day at the orifice (thus meant). North matches up really well against us and exploited our list's weaknesses.