Training - 17/12/2018

[skeptic]

Isn't Slaters role part time? Does anyone know how part time?

Just a few hours a week or is he there frequently?

I heard 2 days per week. Not sure though. Wish he was full time

[samuraisaint]

except i don't think slater is our tackling coach. So hopefully it can come from 2 and a half things.

Thanks to Pebblesofsand on Bigfooty who posted these stats/data on Thursday. Still, don't see how the coaches could think that losing this experience wasn't going to hurt us. And then key season-ending injuries to key players early in the season before round 5 just compounded our problems. As only Bruce and Roberton are resuming in 2019 and Dylan isn't in full training as yet I hope the coaches are using the pre-season to implement a game plan to cover these deficiencies.

"2018 In -
Hunter Clark 0 games
Nick Coffield 0 games
Ben Paton 0 games
Oscar Clavarino 0 games
Doulton Langlands 0 games
Logan Austin 13 games

Out
Nick Reiwoldt 336 games
Leigh Montagna 287
Sean Dempster 222

And it only gets worse when you look at it 5 games into the 2018 season because then you add

Josh Bruce 91 games
Dylan Roberton 128 games
Koby Stevens 91 games

So that's 1142 games worth of difference between the lists of 2017 and 2018."
Thanks pebblesofsand.

[samoht]

except i don't think slater is our tackling coach. So hopefully it can come from 2 and a half things.

Thanks to Pebblesofsand on Bigfooty who posted these stats/data on Thursday. Still, don't see how the coaches could think that losing this experience wasn't going to hurt us. And then key season-ending injuries to key players early in the season before round 5 just compounded our problems. As only Bruce and Roberton are resuming in 2019 and Dylan isn't in full training as yet I hope the coaches are using the pre-season to implement a game plan to cover these deficiencies.

"2018 In -
Hunter Clark 0 games
Nick Coffield 0 games
Ben Paton 0 games
Oscar Clavarino 0 games
Doulton Langlands 0 games
Logan Austin 13 games

Out
Nick Reiwoldt 336 games
Leigh Montagna 287
Sean Dempster 222

And it only gets worse when you look at it 5 games into the 2018 season because then you add

Josh Bruce 91 games
Dylan Roberton 128 games
Koby Stevens 91 games

So that's 1142 games worth of difference between the lists of 2017 and 2018."
Thanks pebblesofsand.

Good analysis and logical reasoning.
But it's easier to just blame AR for everything when things go bad - or so it seems - at saintsational.

[skeptic]

except i don't think slater is our tackling coach. So hopefully it can come from 2 and a half things.

Thanks to Pebblesofsand on Bigfooty who posted these stats/data on Thursday. Still, don't see how the coaches could think that losing this experience wasn't going to hurt us. And then key season-ending injuries to key players early in the season before round 5 just compounded our problems. As only Bruce and Roberton are resuming in 2019 and Dylan isn't in full training as yet I hope the coaches are using the pre-season to implement a game plan to cover these deficiencies.

"2018 In -
Hunter Clark 0 games
Nick Coffield 0 games
Ben Paton 0 games
Oscar Clavarino 0 games
Doulton Langlands 0 games
Logan Austin 13 games

Out
Nick Reiwoldt 336 games
Leigh Montagna 287
Sean Dempster 222

And it only gets worse when you look at it 5 games into the 2018 season because then you add

Josh Bruce 91 games
Dylan Roberton 128 games
Koby Stevens 91 games

So that's 1142 games worth of difference between the lists of 2017 and 2018."
Thanks pebblesofsand.

Good analysis and logical reasoning.
But it's easier to just blame AR for everything when things go bad - or so it seems - at sainsational.

In fairness...
I don’t losing is predominately what led ppl to get frustrated with AR.

I won’t go through the arguments in detail again as I’ve done it to death but the manner of our losses, the poor skills and structure, incredibly questionable selections and how he has presented in the media have bothered many to varying degrees. That you can’t blame on injuries and retirements

[samoht]

I won’t go through the arguments in detail again as I’ve done it to death but the manner of our losses, the poor skills and structure, incredibly questionable selections and how he has presented in the media have bothered many to varying degrees. That you can’t blame on injuries and retirements

Then again, structures, game plans, skills, etc.. don't hold up when you lose good, experienced players, due to retirement and injuries - we had a double whammy in 2018.
AR had a couple of 50% plus seasons, when circumstances were better - and we weren't the best team going around, at the time - this is if we're going to attribute everything to the coach (I always look at all the factors at play, including recruiting, injuries, retirements, etc.. before I even start to look at the coach).
I'm more frustrated with our recruiting. I was surprised Elshaug (of all people) was still sitting at the drafting table.

Anyway, a happy festive season - it's a beautiful day outside. Let's all take a break.

[dragit]

You can run all the analysis in the world and we still have:
5 years
110 games
37 wins

If he's still there in July, I will be shocked

[samoht]

5 years
110 games
37 wins

If he's still there in July, I will be shocked

2 seasons at 50% plus - with an average list, and little help from the recruiters.

[dragit]

ZERO FINALS after 100+ games is quite the achievement.

[samoht]

ZERO FINALS after 100+ games is quite the achievement.

It just goes to prove you need good recruiters for sustained successs - we've had 3 coaches over the last 7 years. The common denominator (to me) is our relatively poorer recruiting.

We arguably only have one elite player (who's elite-skilled in their position), how does this stack up against the Hawks, Richmond, Collingwood, Essendon, West Coast, Geelong - even Brisbane lions, Carlton etc...?

It's our recruiting (I'm convinced).

[iwantmeseats]

AR couldn’t coach water down hill. But of course he isn’t the problem is he.
It’s the list and coach.
The list is almost sub AFL level.
Ain’t fixing that in one or two years.

[Trev from the Bush]

AR couldn’t coach water down hill. But of course he isn’t the problem is he.
It’s the list and coach.
The list is almost sub AFL level.
Ain’t fixing that in one or two years.

And a Merry Christmas to you, Ebenezer!

[Cairnsman]

except i don't think slater is our tackling coach. So hopefully it can come from 2 and a half things.

Thanks to Pebblesofsand on Bigfooty who posted these stats/data on Thursday. Still, don't see how the coaches could think that losing this experience wasn't going to hurt us. And then key season-ending injuries to key players early in the season before round 5 just compounded our problems. As only Bruce and Roberton are resuming in 2019 and Dylan isn't in full training as yet I hope the coaches are using the pre-season to implement a game plan to cover these deficiencies.

"2018 In -
Hunter Clark 0 games
Nick Coffield 0 games
Ben Paton 0 games
Oscar Clavarino 0 games
Doulton Langlands 0 games
Logan Austin 13 games

Out
Nick Reiwoldt 336 games
Leigh Montagna 287
Sean Dempster 222

And it only gets worse when you look at it 5 games into the 2018 season because then you add

Josh Bruce 91 games
Dylan Roberton 128 games
Koby Stevens 91 games

So that's 1142 games worth of difference between the lists of 2017 and 2018."
Thanks pebblesofsand.

Even a clone of Alastsir Clarkson, Mick Malthouse and Kevin Sheedy wouldn't have been able to etch out more wins than was possible due to the trials and tribulations of the 2018 season.

Can't wait for round 6.

[dragit]

except i don't think slater is our tackling coach. So hopefully it can come from 2 and a half things.

Thanks to Pebblesofsand on Bigfooty who posted these stats/data on Thursday. Still, don't see how the coaches could think that losing this experience wasn't going to hurt us. And then key season-ending injuries to key players early in the season before round 5 just compounded our problems. As only Bruce and Roberton are resuming in 2019 and Dylan isn't in full training as yet I hope the coaches are using the pre-season to implement a game plan to cover these deficiencies.

"2018 In -
Hunter Clark 0 games
Nick Coffield 0 games
Ben Paton 0 games
Oscar Clavarino 0 games
Doulton Langlands 0 games
Logan Austin 13 games

Out
Nick Reiwoldt 336 games
Leigh Montagna 287
Sean Dempster 222

And it only gets worse when you look at it 5 games into the 2018 season because then you add

Josh Bruce 91 games
Dylan Roberton 128 games
Koby Stevens 91 games

So that's 1142 games worth of difference between the lists of 2017 and 2018."
Thanks pebblesofsand.

Even a clone of Alastsir Clarkson, Mick Malthouse and Kevin Sheedy wouldn't have been able to etch out more wins than was possible due to the trials and tribulations of the 2018 season.

Can't wait for round 6.

Yep cho is just as good as the best in business, he's just been unlucky, poor bloke.

Hilarious stuff mate.

I was never a big fan of Malthouse or sheedy, but at least they were capable of extracting the best from some players, something we haven't remotely seen from richo.

[Cairnsman]

except i don't think slater is our tackling coach. So hopefully it can come from 2 and a half things.

Thanks to Pebblesofsand on Bigfooty who posted these stats/data on Thursday. Still, don't see how the coaches could think that losing this experience wasn't going to hurt us. And then key season-ending injuries to key players early in the season before round 5 just compounded our problems. As only Bruce and Roberton are resuming in 2019 and Dylan isn't in full training as yet I hope the coaches are using the pre-season to implement a game plan to cover these deficiencies.

"2018 In -
Hunter Clark 0 games
Nick Coffield 0 games
Ben Paton 0 games
Oscar Clavarino 0 games
Doulton Langlands 0 games
Logan Austin 13 games

Out
Nick Reiwoldt 336 games
Leigh Montagna 287
Sean Dempster 222

And it only gets worse when you look at it 5 games into the 2018 season because then you add

Josh Bruce 91 games
Dylan Roberton 128 games
Koby Stevens 91 games

So that's 1142 games worth of difference between the lists of 2017 and 2018."
Thanks pebblesofsand.

Even a clone of Alastsir Clarkson, Mick Malthouse and Kevin Sheedy wouldn't have been able to etch out more wins than was possible due to the trials and tribulations of the 2018 season.

Can't wait for round 6.

Yep cho is just as good as the best in business, he's just been unlucky, poor bloke.

Hilarious stuff mate.

I was never a big fan of Malthouse or sheedy, but at least they were capable of extracting the best from some players, something we haven't remotely seen from richo.

I suppose round 6 can't come quick enough for some. Stay angry in the mean time though because that makes sense.

[Scollop]

except i don't think slater is our tackling coach. So hopefully it can come from 2 and a half things.

Thanks to Pebblesofsand on Bigfooty who posted these stats/data on Thursday. Still, don't see how the coaches could think that losing this experience wasn't going to hurt us. And then key season-ending injuries to key players early in the season before round 5 just compounded our problems. As only Bruce and Roberton are resuming in 2019 and Dylan isn't in full training as yet I hope the coaches are using the pre-season to implement a game plan to cover these deficiencies.

"2018 In -
Hunter Clark 0 games
Nick Coffield 0 games
Ben Paton 0 games
Oscar Clavarino 0 games
Doulton Langlands 0 games
Logan Austin 13 games

Out
Nick Reiwoldt 336 games
Leigh Montagna 287
Sean Dempster 222

And it only gets worse when you look at it 5 games into the 2018 season because then you add

Josh Bruce 91 games
Dylan Roberton 128 games
Koby Stevens 91 games

So that's 1142 games worth of difference between the lists of 2017 and 2018."
Thanks pebblesofsand.

Even a clone of Alastsir Clarkson, Mick Malthouse and Kevin Sheedy wouldn't have been able to etch out more wins than was possible due to the trials and tribulations of the 2018 season.

Can't wait for round 6.

Yep cho is just as good as the best in business, he's just been unlucky, poor bloke.

Hilarious stuff mate.

I was never a big fan of Malthouse or sheedy, but at least they were capable of extracting the best from some players, something we haven't remotely seen from richo.

I suppose round 6 can't come quick enough for some. Stay angry in the mean time though because that makes sense.

If all it takes is games experience then why don't we just recruit more guys like Nathan Brown and...why did we not keep Joey on and keep Rooy on for another year? I'll tell you why. Both Roo andJoey struggled to impact the way that they did when they were at their peak.

It's not as simple as just plucking a stat and using that stat as a reason for the decline down the ladder.

If you follow the logic from Pebblesofsand then why did Cho not play Gilbo early on in the year? From memory I think it took 3 rounds before Sam Gilbert played in the seniors and Cho was also happy to debut Clark before he brought in White or others with more games experience. Also; fancy using Sean Dempster as part of the reason we went well. Was he one of our coaches? Because he certainly didn't contribute out on the field in 2017!!

It's more likely that Richo's gameplan and overall coaching had reached its use by date and his win loss ratio over an extended period of time is the best indication that he's not cut out for the caper as a head coach. The expectation within the footy club at the start of 2018 and the message to fans was that we were going to be top 8 contenders. We didn't just fall short...we failed miserably.

All the signs regarding on field performance in 2018 (as well as anecdotal evidence of lacklustre training standards) relate to poor management of the playing group and overall poor coaching.

[samoht]

It's more likely that Richo's gameplan and overall coaching had reached its use by date and his win loss ratio over an extended period of time is the best indication that he's not cut out for the caper as a head coach. The expectation within the footy club at the start of 2018 and the message to fans was that we were going to be top 8 contenders. We didn't just fall short...we failed miserably.

All the signs regarding on field performance in 2018 (as well as anecdotal evidence of lacklustre training standards) relate to poor management of the playing group and overall poor coaching.

A Game Plan only work if you have a strong enough and talented enough list to impose it.
The opposing teams also have game plans, and if they have more talented lists, they will get theirs to work and negate yours.
It's as simple as that.

You could be the best chess player in the world, but if you start the game minus your queen, if your queen is taken away - an average chess player will beat you.
I would beat Kasparov if he were to start the game without his queen.
It's not an even playing field - it never is - and our coach is playing minus the queen, crudely speaking (and he especially was in 2018).

Our decline in 2018 ... (compared to the 2 prior seasons where we were running at approx. 50% win/loss).
It's more likely to do with the wholesale injuries and the hard draw - plus the fact that other teams have been recruiting better than us, year after year.
We missed out on players we needed - for instance, in 2014, we missed out on players like De Goey, Brayshaw, Petracca - who are rated as either elite, or players with X factor - any one of them would have been great,
while our number 1 pick/forward has been sitting on the sidelines for most part - and is averaging under a goal a match. Petracca is also averaging about a goal a match - and he's not even a fulltime forward.

You need to nail these picks.

We turned over something like 34 players in 2018 - which is considerably more than any other team.
And we don't have the depth, I mean we've had 6 or so ruckmen on our list, in recent years (some have come and gone)- which one of them is elite or close to elite? - while other teams have a Grundy.
That's all you need - one elite ruckman. We've had 6 recruiting chances and we got each one wrong. Normally it's 3 strikes and you're out - our illustrious recruiters have had 6 strikes.

We have multiples of average players - and the ones that win the ball, our ball magnet/midfielders, don't have the elite foot skills to hurt.
Our recruiters have not helped us - and this year again, we have drafted yet another forward "who will take time" - when we could have drafted an elite-skilled midfielder who would have had an immediate impact.

It's not just the coach (I mean, we've had 3 coaches in 7 years, we can't keep scapegoating them and turning a blind eye to everything else that is definitely going wrong) - there's a lot of factors at play - and it's never an even playing field (and this was especially the case in 2018).

[Cairnsman]

except i don't think slater is our tackling coach. So hopefully it can come from 2 and a half things.

Thanks to Pebblesofsand on Bigfooty who posted these stats/data on Thursday. Still, don't see how the coaches could think that losing this experience wasn't going to hurt us. And then key season-ending injuries to key players early in the season before round 5 just compounded our problems. As only Bruce and Roberton are resuming in 2019 and Dylan isn't in full training as yet I hope the coaches are using the pre-season to implement a game plan to cover these deficiencies.

"2018 In -
Hunter Clark 0 games
Nick Coffield 0 games
Ben Paton 0 games
Oscar Clavarino 0 games
Doulton Langlands 0 games
Logan Austin 13 games

Out
Nick Reiwoldt 336 games
Leigh Montagna 287
Sean Dempster 222

And it only gets worse when you look at it 5 games into the 2018 season because then you add

Josh Bruce 91 games
Dylan Roberton 128 games
Koby Stevens 91 games

So that's 1142 games worth of difference between the lists of 2017 and 2018."
Thanks pebblesofsand.

Even a clone of Alastsir Clarkson, Mick Malthouse and Kevin Sheedy wouldn't have been able to etch out more wins than was possible due to the trials and tribulations of the 2018 season.

Can't wait for round 6.

Yep cho is just as good as the best in business, he's just been unlucky, poor bloke.

Hilarious stuff mate.

I was never a big fan of Malthouse or sheedy, but at least they were capable of extracting the best from some players, something we haven't remotely seen from richo.

I suppose round 6 can't come quick enough for some. Stay angry in the mean time though because that makes sense.

If all it takes is games experience then why don't we just recruit more guys like Nathan Brown and...why did we not keep Joey on and keep Rooy on for another year? I'll tell you why. Both Roo andJoey struggled to impact the way that they did when they were at their peak.

It's not as simple as just plucking a stat and using that stat as a reason for the decline down the ladder.

If you follow the logic from Pebblesofsand then why did Cho not play Gilbo early on in the year? From memory I think it took 3 rounds before Sam Gilbert played in the seniors and Cho was also happy to debut Clark before he brought in White or others with more games experience. Also; fancy using Sean Dempster as part of the reason we went well. Was he one of our coaches? Because he certainly didn't contribute out on the field in 2017!!

It's more likely that Richo's gameplan and overall coaching had reached its use by date and his win loss ratio over an extended period of time is the best indication that he's not cut out for the caper as a head coach. The expectation within the footy club at the start of 2018 and the message to fans was that we were going to be top 8 contenders. We didn't just fall short...we failed miserably.

All the signs regarding on field performance in 2018 (as well as anecdotal evidence of lacklustre training standards) relate to poor management of the playing group and overall poor coaching.

The sum of all parts. Flag winners have all parts click at the right time.
A coach and game plan are arguably the smallest of the sum of parts and are also arguably the easiest parts to procure in the modern org structure of an AFL club.

There were much bigger parts broken and in need of improvement in 2018 than a coach and game plan, much bigger and fortunately Lethlean got his feet under the desk quickly and worked that out for himself. The easiest decision that could have been made, a decision that lacks the least amount of courage would have been the desission to scapegoat an individual employee. It's been a very traditional lever to pull in the past but it's clearly looking like there is a new administration paradigm being applied by AFL clubs. Richmond and the Pies are obvious recent examples of proof the new approach works, and works really well. But this new approach probably wont necessary sooth the voices in the head of the older traditional frothers who are anchored to the past administration scapegoat appraoch.

[Scollop]

Can you please stop comparing us with two of the AFL's strongest and richest clubs.

Richo has been there 5 years and he is part of the problem regarding the playing list, so basically I'm saying there's an elephant in the bloody room and you are not only blind but you can't even smell the odour

We can't afford to do a Buckley and wait for half the playing list to be turned over and we certainly don't have the pulling power of Collingwood to be able to lure the likes of Taylor Adams, Adam Treloar, Dayne Beams, James Aish, as well as Jeremy Howe and Varcoe and Daniel Wells

Our playing group had the talent and the potential to beat most of the top 8 teams in 2017 and we did that on the back of Roo hobbling; Shinner retiring before the year started and Joey underperforming in most matches (up until Dermot gave him a bit of a rev up). I believe that Richo lost the players in that year and I think 2018 proves that he needs to find a new occupation

[dragit]

I suppose round 6 can't come quick enough for some. Stay angry in the mean time though because that makes sense.

I'm not angry but you are dead-set delusional if you think richo is getting as many wins from our list as Clarkson would if he was coaching us.

If round 6 is the time when richo packs up his stuff, then yes it can't come quick enough.

[st.byron]

I suppose round 6 can't come quick enough for some. Stay angry in the mean time though because that makes sense.

I'm not angry but you are dead-set delusional if you think richo is getting as many wins from our list as Clarkson would if he was coaching us.

If round 6 is the time when richo packs up his stuff, then yes it can't come quick enough.

Come on mate. Everyone knows it’s all about recruiting. Don’t blame Richo. You could have Clarkson or the guy who coaches the Carrum U14’s and the results would be the same. Coaches are generic. It’s all about recruiting.

Last post for me. It’s been.......well it’s been what it has. Laughs, conflicts, amazement, info, Saints love, far too much time spent. 14 years, 8 months.
Go Saints. See yas all. If I return at some point it will be with a different Nic.

[samoht]

Richo had a 50% win/loss ratio in 2017 with Roo hobbling, Montagna underperforming, and multiples of C and D grade ruckmen, a midfield that's top-heavy with inside midfielders and lacking in outside midfield run, etc..and recruiters that kept recruiting willy-nilly and outside our team's needs, looking for the next D grade ruckman to recruit, etc..
We nevertheless still managed to beat top 8 teams in 2017.

I'm not convinced Clarko (if he was our coach) would have done any better in 2017, or in 2018, for that matter, given the many injuries we had, plus the disruption the injuries caused, our difficult draw and given our relatively poor recruiting over the years.

[skeptic]

You could be the best chess player in the world, but if you start the game minus your queen, if your queen is taken away - an average chess player will beat you.
I would beat Kasparov if he were to start the game without his queen.
It's not an even playing field - it never is - and our coach is playing minus the queen, crudely speaking (and he especially was in 2018).

Being an avid chess player the worst analogy ever
If Richo = minus the queen, doesn’t it stand to reason that if we sack him for a better coach we would immediately get better?

But further to the point... I doubt you could beat Kasparov even without his Queen because if he’s a better player (which no disrespect but he pbly is) then he’ll likely be able to overcome the deficiency over time by consistently making better moves. If Richo is not able to strategise as well (because he is no longer the queen but now the opposing player instead of a piece on the board) then again, surely it stands to reason that we will always perform worse because he’s not as good.

There is no argument that better players will result in a better outcome but surely the same logic applies to having a better coach too. Especially if as you have said our coach = minus a queen

The point is... the analogy doesn’t work

[samoht]

You could be the best chess player in the world, but if you start the game minus your queen, if your queen is taken away - an average chess player will beat you.
I would beat Kasparov if he were to start the game without his queen.
It's not an even playing field - it never is - and our coach is playing minus the queen, crudely speaking (and he especially was in 2018).

Being an avid chess player the worst analogy ever
If Richo = minus the queen, doesn’t it stand to reason that if we sack him for a better coach we would immediately get better?

But further to the point... I doubt you could beat Kasparov even without his Queen because if he’s a better player (which no disrespect but he pbly is) then he’ll likely be able to overcome the deficiency over time by consistently making better moves.

There is no argument that better players will result in a better outcome but surely the same logic applies to having a better coach too. Especially if as you have said our coach = minus a queen

I like your circular reasoning where you've assumed that Richo is a poor coach so you can reach that conclusion. That's flawed reasoning.

I would beat Kasparov if he played without his queen - most average chess players would.

[skeptic]

You could be the best chess player in the world, but if you start the game minus your queen, if your queen is taken away - an average chess player will beat you.
I would beat Kasparov if he were to start the game without his queen.
It's not an even playing field - it never is - and our coach is playing minus the queen, crudely speaking (and he especially was in 2018).

Being an avid chess player the worst analogy ever
If Richo = minus the queen, doesn’t it stand to reason that if we sack him for a better coach we would immediately get better?

But further to the point... I doubt you could beat Kasparov even without his Queen because if he’s a better player (which no disrespect but he pbly is) then he’ll likely be able to overcome the deficiency over time by consistently making better moves.

There is no argument that better players will result in a better outcome but surely the same logic applies to having a better coach too. Especially if as you have said our coach = minus a queen

I like your circular reasoning where you've assumed that Richo is a poor coach so you can support that conclusion.

To be honest...
everything here is rather farcical. Especially my response. The chess analogy just tickled my fancy

[samoht]

You could be the best chess player in the world, but if you start the game minus your queen, if your queen is taken away - an average chess player will beat you.
I would beat Kasparov if he were to start the game without his queen.
It's not an even playing field - it never is - and our coach is playing minus the queen, crudely speaking (and he especially was in 2018).

Being an avid chess player the worst analogy ever
If Richo = minus the queen, doesn’t it stand to reason that if we sack him for a better coach we would immediately get better?

But further to the point... I doubt you could beat Kasparov even without his Queen because if he’s a better player (which no disrespect but he pbly is) then he’ll likely be able to overcome the deficiency over time by consistently making better moves.

There is no argument that better players will result in a better outcome but surely the same logic applies to having a better coach too. Especially if as you have said our coach = minus a queen

I like your circular reasoning where you've assumed that Richo is a poor coach so you can support that conclusion.

To be honest...
everything here is rather farcical. Especially my response. The chess analogy just tickled my fancy

I could have used my usual go-to analogy with the jockey (Clarko) on a champion racehorse (the above-average Hawk list) vs a jockey (Richo) on an also ran (our average list).
But I thought I'd change things up this time with chess.