St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769303Post Scollop »

bigred wrote: Tue 27 Nov 2018 10:37pm Buckenara's hat is hung on his superdraft where he landed Buddy, Lewis & Roughead. Hawks had a priority pick and took Rough...Then Richmond swooped on Tambling leaving Budwah at 5, then took Lewis with pick 7. Three picks in the first seven.

I don't even want to talk about what we did in that draft, but Fiora was involved.

Our midfield is too up and under. We can definitely win enough of the pill but our usage going forward was horrendous. Bad entries.. Just too many bad entries.

One hopes that maybe, just maybe we can get some better disposal, perhaps outside such as Billings and Gresh to actually kick a ball flat and hard. Billings in particular could prove to be exceptional at this.

On the flanks and or wings next year we will have some true pace. The likes that we have not seen in at least the last two decades. Seriously tell me the last bloke on our list that was exquisitely quick apart from Stuv? Aussie Jones?

Young and Parker are not just one trick ponies either. Decent users and both wont shirk it. They most definitely, definitely have spots up for grabs if they want it.

Then we have Long. He looks to have really applied himself over the break. He could truly be anything.

Seriously, how many times did Carlise intercept last year and have to give it to an up and under midfielder such as Ross?

Wait until he is kicking it to advantage of one of these guys. I'm telling ya, we should see a real shift in dynamic.

There will be much play on at all costs football.. We will have some moments, some of those moments where football is at its absolute purest and you are out of your seat.

I reckon that's the plan anyway.
Good post. I like it

When are you taking over from Richo?


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769304Post bigred »

Oh a few other things that I missed....

Hannas, at worst will bring depth to the rotation and he can damn well kick it better than Ross at worst. Roberton will be back and that will help Carlise massively. Hunter will be better for it, as will Coffield.

The Tasmanian bogun will make AA this year. Lock it in.

This list is better than the 2018 result. There is a lot to be bullish about, especially with Rat's on deck.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769314Post Cairnsman »

bigred wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 12:11am Oh a few other things that I missed....

Hannas, at worst will bring depth to the rotation and he can damn well kick it better than Ross at worst. Roberton will be back and that will help Carlise massively. Hunter will be better for it, as will Coffield.

The Tasmanian bogun will make AA this year. Lock it in.

This list is better than the 2018 result. There is a lot to be bullish about, especially with Rat's on deck.
Concur. Especially the AA prediction.

In the words of Keating, 2018 was the season we had to have.

I won't be surprised if we play finals in 2019.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769325Post DJ Higgins »

Finals 2019? Come on mate that is a bit far fetched. We still have one outside mid and terrible rucks. KIng won't have any impact in 2019 and it will take time for ratten, sorry if that offends anyone, to have an impact and for Richo, sorry if that offends anyone, game plan to be slowly overtaken. I am saying bottom 4 ,but playing better


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769326Post freely »

Luckily we'll all settle for 'watchable' after last season so shouldn't be too many complaints.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769332Post magnifisaint »

LOL


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769333Post bigred »

Well we shall see now wont we.

Personally I don't think we will be bottom four.


"Now the ball is loose, it gives St. Kilda a rough chance. Black. Good handpass. Voss. Schwarze now, the defender, can run and from a long way".....
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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769334Post dragit »

bigred wrote: Tue 27 Nov 2018 10:37pm There will be much play on at all costs football.. We will have some moments, some of those moments where football is at its absolute purest and you are out of your seat.

I reckon that's the plan anyway.
I like your outlook red, but I think we've already seen a lot of play on at all costs… the main problem is being able to kick the ball to our own teammates, our forward 50 entries were horrendous. A kamikaze game plan combined with poorly skilled footballers is a disaster at AFL level, good teams will just pick that apart every day of the week. Being quick is of no use if you run away from congestion but then turn it over, so I'll wait and see on these mature guys skills before passing judgement, the potential is exciting though.

Personally I would rather we concentrate on keeping the footy and making methodical, deft f50 entries rather than play on at all costs and bombing it in long and wide.

Finals is an ambitious prediction, but it does need to be our aim, particularly after bringing in 6 mature recruits in the off season. No excuses for Richo next year.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769336Post rodgerfox »

dragit wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 11:42am
bigred wrote: Tue 27 Nov 2018 10:37pm There will be much play on at all costs football.. We will have some moments, some of those moments where football is at its absolute purest and you are out of your seat.

I reckon that's the plan anyway.
I like your outlook red, but I think we've already seen a lot of play on at all costs… the main problem is being able to kick the ball to our own teammates, our forward 50 entries were horrendous. A kamikaze game plan combined with poorly skilled footballers is a disaster at AFL level, good teams will just pick that apart every day of the week. Being quick is of no use if you run away from congestion but then turn it over, so I'll wait and see on these mature guys skills before passing judgement, the potential is exciting though.

Personally I would rather we concentrate on keeping the footy and making methodical, deft f50 entries rather than play on at all costs and bombing it in long and wide.

Finals is an ambitious prediction, but it does need to be our aim, particularly after bringing in 6 mature recruits in the off season. No excuses for Richo next year.
It will be a fascinating year over all I think.

Bulldogs pulled the 'create stoppages, then throw it out to the outside runners and bolt forward' trick and pinched 16.

Richmond pulled the 'force the ball forward at all costs then pressure the opposition to give it back to you when they try to bring it out of F50' trick.

West Coast then came out and saved football by playing a pretty dour midfield, that moves the ball very slowly forward, and kicks deep to the advantage of their tall marking forwards. In the event they don't score, they stack their half-back line with intercept markers and rinse and repeat.


Is the 'kamikaze' ball movement over? Was it ever even a thing really? Did the AFL's interpretation of the 'throwing the ball' facilitate it only for that one year? Does Cotchin, Rance, Reiwoldt and Martin facilitate the rubbish football that the Tigers serve up every week?

Is copying these two a huge error unless you have a 'top 4' as good as Richmond's, or fluke a loophole in the rules like the Bulldogs did?


Fascinating season to see how teams react.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769337Post Myron Gaines »

rodgerfox wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 11:50am
dragit wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 11:42am
bigred wrote: Tue 27 Nov 2018 10:37pm There will be much play on at all costs football.. We will have some moments, some of those moments where football is at its absolute purest and you are out of your seat.

I reckon that's the plan anyway.
I like your outlook red, but I think we've already seen a lot of play on at all costs… the main problem is being able to kick the ball to our own teammates, our forward 50 entries were horrendous. A kamikaze game plan combined with poorly skilled footballers is a disaster at AFL level, good teams will just pick that apart every day of the week. Being quick is of no use if you run away from congestion but then turn it over, so I'll wait and see on these mature guys skills before passing judgement, the potential is exciting though.

Personally I would rather we concentrate on keeping the footy and making methodical, deft f50 entries rather than play on at all costs and bombing it in long and wide.

Finals is an ambitious prediction, but it does need to be our aim, particularly after bringing in 6 mature recruits in the off season. No excuses for Richo next year.
It will be a fascinating year over all I think.

Bulldogs pulled the 'create stoppages, then throw it out to the outside runners and bolt forward' trick and pinched 16.

Richmond pulled the 'force the ball forward at all costs then pressure the opposition to give it back to you when they try to bring it out of F50' trick.

West Coast then came out and saved football by playing a pretty dour midfield, that moves the ball very slowly forward, and kicks deep to the advantage of their tall marking forwards. In the event they don't score, they stack their half-back line with intercept markers and rinse and repeat.


Is the 'kamikaze' ball movement over? Was it ever even a thing really? Did the AFL's interpretation of the 'throwing the ball' facilitate it only for that one year? Does Cotchin, Rance, Reiwoldt and Martin facilitate the rubbish football that the Tigers serve up every week?

Is copying these two a huge error unless you have a 'top 4' as good as Richmond's, or fluke a loophole in the rules like the Bulldogs did?


Fascinating season to see how teams react.
As simple as it sounds you just need to play to your strengths to have any hope of succeeding.

West Coast have a lot of talls & strong marking players. Their gameplan is around ball retention. It worked for them.

Richmond have many ground level players & speed on the outside. Their gameplan was focused on pressure & creating turnovers & then kick & chase to bring into play their quick smalls. It worked.

With the club bringing in speed I dare say our gameplan will be similar to Richmond’s.

My opinion, ball retention is just about the most important aspect to modern footy.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769339Post chico2001 »

For me , we have to make the backline as strong as possible, it is like a sieve despite everyone saying we have a mob of half backs etc. must be able to repel the opposition forward thrusts. The top four backlines are strong. Who is the saints backline coach, are we developing shannon Hurn types? Our guys are poor when the pressure is on and that is because they lack kicking skills. Speed is good if they can actually get the ball and then break lines.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769340Post ace »

Cairnsman wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 6:40am
bigred wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 12:11am Oh a few other things that I missed....

Hannas, at worst will bring depth to the rotation and he can damn well kick it better than Ross at worst. Roberton will be back and that will help Carlise massively. Hunter will be better for it, as will Coffield.

The Tasmanian bogun will make AA this year. Lock it in.

This list is better than the 2018 result. There is a lot to be bullish about, especially with Rat's on deck.
Concur. Especially the AA prediction.

In the words of Keating, 2018 was the season we had to have.

I won't be surprised if we play finals in 2019.
Which club are we talking about ?
Sandringham ?

We will be competing with Gold Coast and Brisbane for the spoon.
Maybe we can move north too.
All the way to China !
Carlscum will be the big upward mover next season.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769344Post Cairnsman »

ace wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 12:46pm
Cairnsman wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 6:40am
bigred wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 12:11am Oh a few other things that I missed....

Hannas, at worst will bring depth to the rotation and he can damn well kick it better than Ross at worst. Roberton will be back and that will help Carlise massively. Hunter will be better for it, as will Coffield.

The Tasmanian bogun will make AA this year. Lock it in.

This list is better than the 2018 result. There is a lot to be bullish about, especially with Rat's on deck.
Concur. Especially the AA prediction.

In the words of Keating, 2018 was the season we had to have.

I won't be surprised if we play finals in 2019.
Which club are we talking about ?
Sandringham ?

We will be competing with Gold Coast and Brisbane for the spoon.
Maybe we can move north too.
All the way to China !
Carlscum will be the big upward mover next season.
Just curious, if the AFL offered an alt-right friendly club would you follow it?


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769353Post bigred »

ace wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 12:46pm
Cairnsman wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 6:40am
bigred wrote: Wed 28 Nov 2018 12:11am Oh a few other things that I missed....

Hannas, at worst will bring depth to the rotation and he can damn well kick it better than Ross at worst. Roberton will be back and that will help Carlise massively. Hunter will be better for it, as will Coffield.

The Tasmanian bogun will make AA this year. Lock it in.

This list is better than the 2018 result. There is a lot to be bullish about, especially with Rat's on deck.
Concur. Especially the AA prediction.

In the words of Keating, 2018 was the season we had to have.

I won't be surprised if we play finals in 2019.
Which club are we talking about ?
Sandringham ?

We will be competing with Gold Coast and Brisbane for the spoon.
Maybe we can move north too.
All the way to China !
Carlscum will be the big upward mover next season.
Is that because they are stacked with #1 picks again?

I say again.....


"Now the ball is loose, it gives St. Kilda a rough chance. Black. Good handpass. Voss. Schwarze now, the defender, can run and from a long way".....
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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769426Post samoht »

Scollop wrote: Tue 27 Nov 2018 11:33pm
samoht wrote: Tue 27 Nov 2018 7:55pm He has nevertheless summed up and identified our biggest recruiting need, derby street ... and we have a team of full time recruiters who keep recruiting outside our needs, year after year.
Get rid of the lot of them, pay Buckenara some bickies, and our recruiting will improve by 100% .. and we'll save $1 mill/annum.
I wouldn't have minded the selection of King if our CEO and Lethlean admitted that we need to do a total rebuild but they haven't...at least not publicly anyway. To me it points to an organisation that has come to the realisation that our last 5 years of list building has been mostly wasted. Who the hell has 4-5 tall forward options on their list FFS?

The inclusion of Kent, Hannebery and the mature age players is a way of transitioning without having the majority of your list being 18 and 19 year olds. Lessons need to be learnt from our mistakes. We will be in dissaray if we don't have a long term plan to rebuild and if we don't focus on creating a new group of leaders and teaching and instilling on field leadership.

Hopefully Bytel (if he fully recovers from the back concerns) will mature into a future captain and you never know what happens with the draftees from last year including Coffield and Hunter Clark. With some luck and with some better development our other youngsters like Paton, Phillips, DMac, White, JB, Dunny, Long, Lonie and Sinclair could be consistent contributors and of course we have Steele and a few other very good players that will hopefully be around to help get us back up the ladder

I see us being serious contenders in 5 years time and NOT before then. In my opinion we have to bite the bullet and admit that we need to rebuild with the focus on giving yourh opportunities. Plus...it will take a lot longer if we don't change the head coach in 2019
good post, scollop .... but I'd change the "recruiting team" before the "head coach" --- our recruiting is the thing that is definitely holding us back.
I don't know how to accurately rate the coach, as I also see some positives; I mean we have seen so many players have breakout years under him (Ross, Roberton, Steele, etc... and even Austin has gone from a 7 possession to a 20 possession per game player, etc, ..), so Richo must have set the right framework, environment and support systems for this development to happen.
If Dunny, Sinclair, Paton, etc.. have it in them, they will also develop and have their breakout years - all eyes are on them, and no excuses!
Nothing is holding them back - certainly not the coach, certainly not the facilities.
I'd get rid of all our recruiters, and start again. They are definitely not helping the coach by recruiting outside our team's needs, year after year, and as if we are a casino with a rehabiltation centre attached (and I notice a couple of "hopefully and ifs" and "with some luck" in your post - which wouldn't be there if we had recruited, drafted and poached what our team needed over the years). It's not only about players developing - the recruiters also need to recruit/develop a strong and balanced list, but what they have delivered instead is a list that's overweight in forwards, average ruckmen, and half back flankers - and underweight in midfielders with elite skills and outside run. Hence our poor F50 entries and our bottom 4 finish (the injuries wouldn't have helped).
Any coach would have their work cut out, given our poor recruiting over the years. Richo might actually be getting as much as could be reasonably expected from what he has to work with, who knows? The only thing I can definitely say is that our recruiting is not up to scratch.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769468Post rodgerfox »

It's not definitely at all.

It's definitely your opinion, but it's certainly not a,fact. Far, far from a fact.

I totally disagree with you.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769476Post Cairnsman »

Hypothetical, it's September 2019, we are about to play our first final after a dramitic rise back up the ladder, and the talking heads are praising how amazing the turn around has been in performance compared to 2018, what will they be saying is the reason?


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769478Post samoht »

rodgerfox wrote: Thu 29 Nov 2018 9:00pm It's not definitely at all.

It's definitely your opinion, but it's certainly not a,fact. Far, far from a fact.

I totally disagree with you.
Obviously I can't speak for others, and it was my opinion that I expressed .. but I definitely see much more evidence of the recruiting not being up to scratch than the coaching. I'm not saying the coaching is good or bad, by the way - what I'm saying is it's harder to read.
One quick glance at our list and it's obvious to me (and it should be to others) that it's overweight in many areas and underweight in other very important areas.

Most of the posts (90% plus) are laying or seem to want to lay all the blame on the coach, as if it's defintely his fault .. and that to me is far, far, far, (far to the nth degree) from a fact.
Last edited by samoht on Fri 30 Nov 2018 9:13am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769479Post rodgerfox »

samoht wrote: Fri 30 Nov 2018 8:43am .. but I definitely see much more evidence of the recruiting not being up to scratch than the coaching.
We know.

Because you say the same f****** thing every f****** time.


However as I've said countless times - I totally disagree with you. Your 'evidence' is flimsy at best.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769480Post samoht »

rodgerfox wrote: Fri 30 Nov 2018 9:09am
samoht wrote: Fri 30 Nov 2018 8:43am .. but I definitely see much more evidence of the recruiting not being up to scratch than the coaching.
We know.

Because you say the same f****** thing every f****** time.


However as I've said countless times - I totally disagree with you. Your 'evidence' is flimsy at best.
What evidence? It's my opinion - and we're talking about a lot of different factors.
I'm saying it's hard to definitely say it's the coach.
But most on here keep blaming him for everything ... with flimsy evidence.
Last edited by samoht on Fri 30 Nov 2018 9:16am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769481Post Crossy66 »

Cairnsman wrote: Fri 30 Nov 2018 6:14am Hypothetical, it's September 2019, we are about to play our first final after a dramitic rise back up the ladder, and the talking heads are praising how amazing the turn around has been in performance compared to 2018, what will they be saying is the reason?
What "they" say and what the facts are will probably not be the same thing.
But i suspect the turn around will be attributed much the same as tigers and pies. I.e a far reaching club review leading to big changes to recruiting, coaching, board etc and that the club fully backed in the coach.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769482Post dragit »

Cairnsman wrote: Fri 30 Nov 2018 6:14am Hypothetical, it's September 2019, we are about to play our first final after a dramitic rise back up the ladder, and the talking heads are praising how amazing the turn around has been in performance compared to 2018, what will they be saying is the reason?
It will be because the word THE was outlawed on a fan forum.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769483Post Yorkeys »

I don't see the Club as a laughing stock. Some of the performances in 2018 were laughable in a derisive way. While this is undoubtedly due to several factors a team having no pattern, panicking under even moderate pressure and having no resilience to respond to quick goals from an opposition is primarily down to the head coach. The club has recognised this by boosting the coaching ranks. It has also tried to make a virtue of head coaching stability when it really is executive embarrassment and cost that has anchored AR for another year. Expecting recruiters to deliver finals certainty picking from the draft and the other player market places in a salary cap framework is naïve at best. They use their experience, whatever metrics and intel that are available and try to match as best as possible a good playing group profile. If the coach cannot get the recruits to perform as a cohesive unit it is the coaches fault. In 2018 AR was terrible at getting the players to work together as a team and to persist with a style that suited their strengths. All the men on our list are highly skilled AFL athletes, the recruiters have delivered that. It is up to AR to get them to perform well. That doesn't mean winning everything but it does mean performances like those dished up against North and Sydney are dark black marks against AR's professional coaching CV. 2018 proved AR is a poor coach left to his own devices but the hope is (Stockholm Syndrome?) that he can learn and improve in the new environment the club has given him an opportunity to work with.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769484Post dragit »

samoht wrote: Fri 30 Nov 2018 8:43am I'm not saying the coaching is good or bad, by the way
Pretty sure you are trying to, but your assertion of 3 players having a break out year in 5 years of coaching isn't very compelling, no matter how many times you repeat it.
samoht wrote: Thu 29 Nov 2018 7:32am I mean we have seen so many players have breakout years under him (Ross, Roberton, Steele, etc... and even Austin has gone from a 7 possession to a 20 possession per game player, etc, ..), so Richo must have set the right framework, environment and support systems for this development to happen.
The Austin one is thigh slapping stuff btw. ^ :D Only played when injuries absolutely forced Richos hand.


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Re: St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

Post: # 1769487Post samoht »

Yorkeys wrote: Fri 30 Nov 2018 9:34am I don't see the Club as a laughing stock. Some of the performances in 2018 were laughable in a derisive way. While this is undoubtedly due to several factors a team having no pattern, panicking under even moderate pressure and having no resilience to respond to quick goals from an opposition is primarily down to the head coach. The club has recognised this by boosting the coaching ranks. It has also tried to make a virtue of head coaching stability when it really is executive embarrassment and cost that has anchored AR for another year. Expecting recruiters to deliver finals certainty picking from the draft and the other player market places in a salary cap framework is naïve at best. They use their experience, whatever metrics and intel that are available and try to match as best as possible a good playing group profile. If the coach cannot get the recruits to perform as a cohesive unit it is the coaches fault. In 2018 AR was terrible at getting the players to work together as a team and to persist with a style that suited their strengths. All the men on our list are highly skilled AFL athletes, the recruiters have delivered that. It is up to AR to get them to perform well. That doesn't mean winning everything but it does mean performances like those dished up against North and Sydney are dark black marks against AR's professional coaching CV. 2018 proved AR is a poor coach left to his own devices but the hope is (Stockholm Syndrome?) that he can learn and improve in the new environment the club has given him an opportunity to work with.
(I keep posting against the popular opinion and repeating myself, but I promise this will be my last post on this topic, and my final repeat and recap - I can hear a collective sigh of relief. I just want to see some more balanced and rounded discussions).

Anyway ...
How do you explain the form of Steele, Austin, etc ? Austin last 2 seasons at Port adelaide averaged only 7 possessions per game - he has tripled his output.
We may have been simply outgunned by more skilful teams who have improved their lists relative to us - and have you taken injuries into account?
I think we turned over more players than any other team due to our wholesale injuries this year - something like 34 players? - is that even possible? ... but someone may need to check that to verify.

The coach is hard to read - and there were a couple of seasons where AR's W/L was 50% or better - but the list and how (badly, in my opinion) we've recruited is obvious (to me, anyway).
We may be too focussed on blaming the coach for everything and missing the big picture. There may be other areas that we need to improve in that we're happy to gloss over - and (if this is the case at club level) we may be doomed to repeat what we refuse to see.

Are you sure there are no other areas we may need to really improve in - apart from coaching - and that injuries did not play a part?

In a close competition you probably only need to be 1 or 2 % off, for whatever reason (not just coaching) - and that's all it may take to slide down the ladder.
I've pointed out (on numerous occasions) some flaws that I saw in AR - that he was slow to give some players a go (as was Lyon, etc), which makes me now think that I may not have repeated myself enough, but to blame him for everything is misleading and wrong.
The "new environment" for AR to improve and get back to 50% plus per season, may simply be a lot less injuries - but he could sure use some help from our recruiters - they don't only need to draft, they can also poach elite-skilled midfielders - but they can at least start by focussing on drafting them.
I mean people make shopping lists that they stick to - for things they need at home, F#S!


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