[i]When Ross Was Boss - The Recruiter[/i]

[Ghost Like]

Great article in this mornings Sunday Herald Sun about recruiting from 2007 to 2010.

WARNING: Will open up some old wounds.

Great insight into Lyon. Although most of us had that impression of him, especially in regards to his player development.

If only he genuinely stuck to his "Let cobblers cobble" phrase.

[theoracle]

Oh god, we could have had Cyril Rioli and Jack Darling if, indeed, Ross did let the cobblers cobble! Big stat in the middle of the article - our drafting from 2007-10 was a disaster. Ross left a mixed legacy at St K.

For those of you who are not Herald Sun subscribers, here is the article.

Former recruiter John Peake’s first hand account of the draft and selection battles at St Kilda

ROSS Lyon didn’t involve himself a great deal in recruiting discussions in my first two years at St Kilda.

He had a phrase: “Let the cobblers cobble.”

In 2007, Ross was insistent that we exchange our second-round draft selection to Sydney for Sean Dempster and Adam Schneider.

The following year we again traded out a second-round pick for Farren Ray, although it was Matthew Drain, who had replaced Ken Sheldon as football manager 12 months earlier, who was behind that particular push.

Where Ross exerted considerable draft influence was during deliberations over Cyril Rioli ahead of the 2007 national draft.

We had selection No.9.

I rated Cyril comfortably inside the top 10. For some reason Ross had the slows on him.

Cyril did not interview well at the draft combine. That said, it is not uncommon for players to present as shy and nervous when grilled by AFL coaches and assorted club officials.

This is especially so with indigenous players. In fairness to Ross, when he met Cyril for the first time, Cyril was difficult to engage in conversation or elicit much of a response from.

Cyril appeared reluctant or possibly lacked confidence to engage. His responses were limited and little insight into his character was gained.

The psychological testing did not reveal any more of Cyril’s character and therefore it remained an unknown aspect of his profile.

I was overseeing my first national draft and didn’t have any runs on the board. I disclosed my conundrum to a friend. His advice was that I’d be running the gauntlet to use a first-round selection on a player the coach had misgivings about.

With selection nine we chose Ben McEvoy. I rated Ben highly as well. I was also of the opinion that a good ruckman is needed to win finals.

I didn’t mind Tom Bellchambers, but had concerns about his maturity, and Dawson Simpson deserved an opportunity, but not as an early draft selection. Ben and Matthew Kreuzer, who Carlton drafted at No.1, were the only rucks I had confidence in.

I wear the criticism for selecting Ben ahead of Cyril (Hawthorn, pick 12) and Patrick Dangerfield (Adelaide, pick 10), but sleep a little easier now that Ben is a dual premiership ruckman (albeit as a Hawk) and on track to play more than 200 AFL games.

Our next selection after Ben in the 2007 draft was pick 42, which I had targeted for Jack Steven of the Geelong Falcons.

This was based on the assumption that he would still be available. I had researched Jack extensively and the fact that he had only been invited to a state combine suggested that he wasn’t to every club’s liking.

I understood that too, as Jack did have some rough edges. That’s why I was reasonably optimistic Jack would be there at selection 42.

Of course, we had also traded in Adam Schneider from Sydney. Hence, if we drafted Cyril, it would have meant bringing in three smalls together.

In hindsight you would say it didn’t matter as they were all good players, but at the time I was mindful of having a balanced draft.

Ross made no secret that he loved quick and skilful players, which suited me fine. In my first year at St Kilda we didn’t have philosophical differences on the types of players we were considering.

It changed when we selected Tom Lynch at my second draft.

The 2007 season was Ross’ first as a senior coach and my impression was that he hadn’t fully bedded down his game plan.

He then took the team to a preliminary final in 2008 and the Grand Final in 2009.

For St Kilda to win 19 consecutive games that season and lead Geelong in time-on of the final quarter of the Grand Final, was an outstanding coaching effort by Ross.

Unfortunately for the Saints, Shannon Byrnes and Travis Varcoe both had an impact for Geelong in the last quarter and this legitimised an internal view that we had been beaten by pace.

I still maintain that Geelong’s bottom six players were simply superior to ours, but Ross vehemently disagreed. In fact, he became more inflexible with regard to leg speed, which led to conflict between us.

In the case of Tom Lynch, I was convinced he could play and knew he could run.

He wasn’t an aesthetically pleasing athlete or, in the words of a good friend, a “mounting yard special”.

Where Sam Gilbert or Rhys Stanley would glide across the ground, Tom was a little flat-footed.

Upon being drafted in 2008, Tom had made it known that he was setting his sights on a Round 1 debut. Ross perceived this as arrogance, whereas I felt Tom was just ambitious.

Ross didn’t understand Tom and this is where he and I began to fall out.

In the 2008 trade period, Ross and assistant coach Tony Elshaug had been very keen on Carlton’s Brad Fisher, as they wanted a lead-up forward to ease some of the burden shouldered by Nick Riewoldt.

I strongly opposed the idea, as Fisher had been injury-prone and I didn’t believe he had much AFL football left in him.

By this stage Tom was well and truly on the radar and I was able to argue that we could draft the prototype, lead-up player that Ross was seeking. Drain came around to the idea and Ross reluctantly relented, but not before letting me know how disappointed he was in passing up on Fisher.

St Kilda's drafts 2007-10
2007
Ben McEvoy (9), Jack Steven (42), Fraser Gehrig (57), Eljay Connors (70)
2008
Tom Lynch (13), Rhys Stanley (47), Nick Heyne (48), Alistair Smith (62), Paul Cahill (74), Colm Begley (83)
2009
Nick Winmar (32), Jesse Smith (60), Adam Pattison (64), Will Johnson (77)
2010
Jamie Cripps (24), Sam Crocker (43), Tom Ledger (59), Arryn Siposs (75), Ryan Gamble (90), Dean Polo (103)
As time went on, the divide between Ross and I got bigger.

He believed that players needed to serve a three-year apprenticeship, which I agreed with up to a point.

Former Saint and Kangaroo Nick Dal Santo rapt up Ross on Fox Footy’s Open Mike, but acknowledged that he treated young players as virtual witch’s hats at training. It was often a case of “stand over there and don’t get in the way”.

In 2009 Jack Steven was playing consistently good football in the VFL but could not get a look in.

Drain was pushing for Jack and Tom to get games, as he knew they might be needed in finals if there were injuries.

At the same time, Sean Dempster, who was a wonderful servant of the club and became an All-Australian half-back, was improvising as a lead-up forward — the very role Tom had been drafted to fill. It didn’t make sense.

One can’t help but wonder what might have been considering Tom has become the linchpin (excuse the pun) for Adelaide.

As for Jack, he was twice the player of Robert Eddy and by 2010 had more to offer than Andrew McQualter and Brett Peake, but Ross would not entertain playing him.

Ross made me a better recruiter by holding me to a high level of account. I didn’t always agree with his management methods or philosophies, but I came to understand his expectations and worked to these accordingly.

My time at St Kilda certainly helped hone my recruiting strategies.

Ross wanted each recruiter to present to him their draft order.

I had some concerns that this could be divisive, while veteran Saints recruiter John Beveridge was reluctant to commit himself to player rankings or making decisions during the year, and sometimes, until the night of the draft.

This is where he and I had disagreements, although I don’t blame John.

He had worked independently for so long that he found it challenging to all of sudden have to collaborate with others.

The assistant coaches at St Kilda were terrific and I felt wonderfully supported by each of them. In my time we had Stephen Silvagni, Anthony Rock, John Barker, Elshaug, Andy Lovell, Leigh Tudor and Danny Sexton.

The fact that Ross was so relentless and demanding of his staff is essentially what banded us together.

By 2010 Ross was taking more of an interest in the draft and having most of the say. That’s when I decided my time was up.

The final straw came when he ridiculed me for having “burned” first-round selections on slow players (McEvoy and Lynch).

Shortly after I received an email from Greg Hutchison, who had replaced Drain as football manager, informing me that Ross had been placed in charge of list management.

Consequently, my services would not be required during the upcoming trade period and that Ross would basically be calling all of the shots.

I will say that when I resigned Ross tried to talk me around. I took him at his word that he was sincere.

One of my final duties at St Kilda was overseeing the 2010 national draft.

The recruiters had wanted to use selection 24 on Jack Darling, but were overruled by Ross.

He wanted to select runners and had the final say (St Kilda selected Jamie Cripps at pick No.24, the small forward who would go on to be a premiership player at West Coast alongside Darling).

Ross is intelligent. I believe he was a high achiever academically and is meticulous in his preparation and planning. He has taken two clubs to Grand Finals and would be a premiership coach if not for an unwieldy bounce of the ball in the dying stages of the 2010 drawn Grand Final.

My experience with Ross is that he didn’t have great faith in people outside his inner circle. He found it difficult to trust people and it’s largely the reason he micromanaged so much at St Kilda.

As an observer from afar, it would appear Ross is reinventing himself in the way he is bringing through a group of talented young players at Fremantle.

THE FOUR PILLARS OF RECRUITING

John Peake, who is building a manuscript that outlines the skills of recruiting, details his four key planks to drafting successful players.

1. CAN HE PLAY?

This component takes in football skill, ability to read the play and decision making.

2. MENTAL STRENGTH

Can the player stand up to the constant pressure of the work needed to prepare and perform each week? Is the player competitive by nature? Has he overcome a setback, shown resilience?

3. PHYSICAL MAKE-UP

Will the player’s build and/or strength help or hinder his game?

4. ATHLETIC ABILITY.

How does the player rate aerobically, for speed and agility? The weighting applied to each athletic trait is relative to the role the footballer is required to perform. High football IQ will invariably compensate for a lack of leg speed.

THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE FOUR PILLARS

Pillar 1 has the most influence on how good an AFL player he will be. If a player does not rate very good or high in Pillar 2 then I believe he will not make it. Strong ratings in Pillars 3 and 4 can offset some deficiencies in Pillars 1 and 2, which are still the most important.

[skeptic]

So Ross made us not pick Cyril Rioli and Jack Darling against the inclinations of the recruiters

He also didn’t want to give Tom Lynch and Jack Steven opportunities

He rated Eddy, McQualter and Peake ahead of Steven to be exact and was so pigheaded he wouldn’t even entertain the idea of trying to let the kid develop ahead of him

He really rated Brad Fisher

He failed to grasp the significance of speed creeping into the modern game


This article just confirms what I’ve been saying about RL for years...
Clearly very overrated as a coach who made a name for himself by inheriting 2 readymade finals lists

Terrible at development

IMO in the alternate reality where we selected Longmire or either of the other 2 candidates as coach, we’re pbly back to back premiers in 09-10

[Trev from the Bush]

I think you have picked the bones over pretty well skeptic. However, what's done is done.

Very good article and an honest insight into the goings-on inside the club during our most recent successful era.

The failure to consistently play Jack Steven is the single most perplexing failure of Lyon in my book. Go back to the Friday night match at the MCG against Geelong (freezing cold; would have gladly gone back to the hotel room if one of the girls made the suggestion). I thought the Cats had our measure at half-time. In an amazing turnaround, we kept the Cats to scoring just 3 behinds after half-time and Jack kicked 3 quick, game defining goals in a few minutes during the third quarter.

As a reward, Jack was nowhere to be seen during the 2010 finals, banished! A very, very strange man is Ross Lyon.

[rodgerfox]

It set us back nigh on a decade.

I've said this numerous times on here, but the fact that our current senior group consists only of Steven and Armitage is why we're so bad right now - and this is a direct result of Lyon's list management back then.

What added to it, was that our 'rebuild' then started with compromised drafts which set us further back.

Since 2013 our drafting and recruitment has been been good - but the leadership void created by Lyon has stifled their development.

[Cairnsman]

So Ross made us not pick Cyril Rioli and Jack Darling against the inclinations of the recruiters

He also didn’t want to give Tom Lynch and Jack Steven opportunities

He rated Eddy, McQualter and Peake ahead of Steven to be exact and was so pigheaded he wouldn’t even entertain the idea of trying to let the kid develop ahead of him

He really rated Brad Fisher

He failed to grasp the significance of speed creeping into the modern game


This article just confirms what I’ve been saying about RL for years...
Clearly very overrated as a coach who made a name for himself by inheriting 2 readymade finals lists

Terrible at development

IMO in the alternate reality where we selected Longmire or either of the other 2 candidates as coach, we’re pbly back to back premiers in 09-10

Your reaction to the article seems to validate your minset that Ross was an overrated coach.

I thought the article was balanced and it didn't even come close to suggesting Ross was overrated. It certainly pointed out some of the differences between 2 professionals and the most interesting part of the story was John's observation RL was reinventing himself which I read to mean working on improving himself professionally.

You know most professionals have strengths and weaknesses, successful organisations provide support to help improve individuals if they think the strengths far outweigh weaknesses.

This mentality of sacking coaches as a knee jerk reaction to the froth and bubble which can be totally disruptive and counter productive is so 1990s.

I hope RL is successful and wins a flag as he would throughly deserve one and it would prove the modern template of not sacking coaches when times get tough but rather look to help the individual adapt and improve. It's called a profession for a reason and that's what professionals do.

[whiskers3614]

Like to know his full input in the Ball/Lovett episodes (the most idiotic episode in our history after Stewart/Barrot trade!)

[skeptic]

So Ross made us not pick Cyril Rioli and Jack Darling against the inclinations of the recruiters

He also didn’t want to give Tom Lynch and Jack Steven opportunities

He rated Eddy, McQualter and Peake ahead of Steven to be exact and was so pigheaded he wouldn’t even entertain the idea of trying to let the kid develop ahead of him

He really rated Brad Fisher

He failed to grasp the significance of speed creeping into the modern game


This article just confirms what I’ve been saying about RL for years...
Clearly very overrated as a coach who made a name for himself by inheriting 2 readymade finals lists

Terrible at development

IMO in the alternate reality where we selected Longmire or either of the other 2 candidates as coach, we’re pbly back to back premiers in 09-10

Your reaction to the article seems to validate your minset that Ross was an overrated coach.

I thought the article was balanced and it didn't even come close to suggesting Ross was overrated. It certainly pointed out some of the differences between 2 professionals and the most interesting part of the story was John's observation RL was reinventing himself which I read to mean working on improving himself professionally.

You know most professionals have strengths and weaknesses, successful organisations provide support to help improve individuals if they think the strengths far outweigh weaknesses.

This mentality of sacking coaches as a knee jerk reaction to the froth and bubble which can be totally disruptive and counter productive is so 1990s.

I hope RL is successful and wins a flag as he would throughly deserve one and it would prove the modern template of not sacking coaches when times get tough but rather look to help the individual adapt and improve. It's called a profession for a reason and that's what professionals do.

I never called for RL to be sacked and I certainly don’t think he’s rubbish.
To be honest, one thing that I’ve really come to appreciate about him is that his teams are psychologically strong and always turn up.

That era post Lovett and the St.Kilda school girl fiasco and how he managed the scrutiny... the whole bubble time was incredible leadership.

The players respected him and he led from the front.

I’ve just always found the narrative that he was SuperCoach... best coach not to win a flag etc to be perplexing.
At the end of the day I’ve always thought his inability or unwillingness at the time to look at players and consider what they could become as opposed to accepting mediocre performances from a select few cost us deeply.

In particular how he persevered with McQualter in 2010 who was producing Weller standards was infuriating

Remember in 09 he played Dempster as a forward ahead of Armo...
Just didn’t value X-Factor enough

In terms of bitter, I just really hate the way he left... would have respected him if he owned his reasons as opposed to throwing the club under the bus

[Ghost Like]

"I thought the article was balanced and it didn't even come close to suggesting Ross was overrated. It certainly pointed out some of the differences between 2 professionals and the most interesting part of the story was John's observation RL was reinventing himself which I read to mean working on improving himself professionally"

Agree with you Cairnsman. Peake's thoughts on the make up of Lyon, the then and the now is interesting. He was a work in progress, continuing to this day. Just a pity, we had the formative, micro manager who didn't let the cobblers cobble. If only he'd lived by that with St Kilda it could have been so different because he does know how to coach, just didn't know enough to have faith in the recruiters and first to third year players.

Professionals that refuse to learn from mistakes or acknowledge and work on their weaknesses will fall by the wayside (sacked), it just depends on how much time an organisation is willing to give. A business can only sustain losses and poor decisions for so long.

[cwrcyn]

"I believe he was a high achiever academically"........... Hmm...he failed year 11 at Lakeside High School in Reservoir. Must have grown a new brain after high school.

[Yorkeys]

Ross mismanaged three GFs when he had the best teams in those seasons and lost clubs three premierships. Saints twice - he was outcoached and playing Robert Eddy when a J. Steven was available is gut wrenching to have pointed out. The Dockers were so nervous and lacking confidence against Hawthorn early but still nearly came back - he just didn't prepare them on game day. His duplicity and disingenuousness in leaving the Saints shows he is not an honest broker, no problem with him going for the bucks but the timing and covert dealings left us with Scott W. which really set us back. I am interested that a number of Saints fans still wish him well and Nick R seems a firm friend. Perhaps what you see at the pressers is what the man is, nice to star players and often rude to everyone else. Lovett was a shocking and costly call. Interesting to note how he reacted to Cyril and compare to the license he has given Harley Bennell. Overall I think he owes Paul Roos for the apprenticeship and references. He is no Roos of course. Roos has coached a premiership.

[whiskers3614]

95 more games (and 1 more club) needed by Lyon to surpass Eade as having coached the most games without a flag!
Already holds the record (4) of GF's without a win.
The fact that Riewoldt still likes him is a result of GF chokers sticking together.

[skeptic]

The sense I get is that he was/is well liked amongst the majority of players of that era at the Saints...

Whilst I think he is overrated he clearly is a good leader that got a lot of the team / staff to buy into his plan, and certainly he did very well in development with some of the players that he did rate.
Guys like Kosi, Milne, Gardiner, Gwilt, Gram, Ray to name a few who had stagnated certainly got back on track whilst your Riewoldt, Hayes, Goddard, Dal, Monty etc elevated their games to the next level.

I don’t think you can reasonably argue that he was a numpty as a coach.

Like I said before... ppl mark our recruiting in that era as being amongst the worst but RL just didn’t seem to have the mindset to see a younger player with just potential and see what they could become.
Guys like Armitage, Steven, McEvoy, and Lynch to name a few where amongst those that went from zero to top 22 very quickly after they were away from RL.

I look back at that era and think that with the exception of Howard and Winmar who many suggested at the time we seriously overrated, most of our picks were more or less in line with shall we say industry standards.
Yet our results were REALLY bad. Were we so horrible at recruitment that we defied the odds and got it wrong almost every single time or was it a case that the coach didn’t focus on development and it suffered.

To me the latter fits with the narrative of the time better


To me, Ross highlighted the need to have a figure in place that oversees the balance between the immediate and longer term needs of the immediate playing group which is something that IMO we haven’t had more or less since the GT days. Grant IMO was better at though significantly worse at actual coaching (and had his own set of issues).

[magnifisaint]

Wow Ross is going to be so pissed off with John Peake for exposing him

[Shaggy]

95 more games (and 1 more club) needed by Lyon to surpass Eade as having coached the most games without a flag!
Already holds the record (4) of GF's without a win.
The fact that Riewoldt still likes him is a result of GF chokers sticking together.

I find that so offensive. IMO you are simply ignorant.

Roo played ok in the GF's. Dominated the PFs to get us there.

In my flags at a lower level our gun captain was always blanketed in the GF. But that helped us win because the opp were so focused on him.

Despite Roo getting full attention in the GF his support did not win us the flag. So be it. Dont blame him FFS. What is wrong with you?

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Peake mentions Shannon Byrnes who had a last quarter blinder playing off Raph Clarke.
Anyone who though Raph was a GF-quality player was kidding himself. Not sure what
got into Ro$$'s head. Perhaps one has to accept a certain amount of eccentricity and
inflexibility in an obsessive coach. In an ideal word, the obessive coach would get you
to the finals and someone more objective and analytical would take over. Steven Armo
Gwilt/Hudghton in, Clarke Eddy out.

[Scollop]

Toss the floss is laughing all the way to the bank

By the way; plugger66 says hi and he reckons Peake is a fool. Jack Steven couldn't play in finals in '09 or '10 because he had OP and Armo was also injured.

Sarcasm alert!! Especially for those who weren't around or can't remember the posts in 2011 and 2012 between myself and p66

[Scollop]

... but the leadership void created by Lyon has stifled their development.

Ross Lyon left in 2011. There have been coaches, presidents, and countless board members and leaders at the club (including a dominant figure who was captain for 5 more years after Lyon departed). What was stopping them all from any succession planning? The worst thing that happened after Watters was sacked was that the St Kilda board forgot about any lessons learnt from the mistakes of messiah worshipping and also forgot to plan...for life after Riewoldt. They are all as much to blame for the so called leadership void as is Lyon

[tedtheodorelogan2018]

Wouldn't be surprised if Ross only coaches 1-2 more years.

[rodgerfox]

... but the leadership void created by Lyon has stifled their development.

Ross Lyon left in 2011. There have been coaches, presidents, and countless board members and leaders at the club (including a dominant figure who was captain for 5 more years after Lyon departed). What was stopping them all from any succession planning? The worst thing that happened after Watters was sacked was that the St Kilda board forgot about any lessons learnt from the mistakes of messiah worshipping and also forgot to plan...for life after Riewoldt. They are all as much to blame for the so called leadership void as is Lyon

I don't care who's fault it is.

But the fact remains we have a big leadership vacuum and are devoid of a solid senior group.

That stems from the fact that only Armitage and Steven came through the ranks during that time.

[skeptic]

Toss the floss is laughing all the way to the bank

By the way; plugger66 says hi and he reckons Peake is a fool. Jack Steven couldn't play in finals in '09 or '10 because he had OP and Armo was also injured.

Sarcasm alert!! Especially for those who weren't around or can't remember the posts in 2011 and 2012 between myself and p66

In the book “The Bubble” it was suggested that in 2010 minus Ralph, the Saints were injury free but it’s besides the point. I don’t think anyone thinks Armo or Steven should have just been gifted a random game in the GF of one year or another.

Both should have been more regular fixtures and maybe things work out differently.

The way things were, I doubt Armo would have played in 09 injured or not

[Joffa Burns]

Ross Lyon coached for the here and now and did not develop assimilate the young talent on the list into the side which proved to be a massive mistake. He rolled the dice and lost.

However to blame Ross for the 2018 issues is laughable, thank god some of you are not running your own companies. My favorite saying is the reason your cars rear view mirror is 5% of the size of the windscreen is proportionate to how much time you should spend looking forward and back.

Are we now going to blame our financial demise on Grant Thomas pushing the board to pull put of our Tasmanian arrangement?

In business & sport business you make mistakes, you learn from them and you move forward.
In 23 years of business I almost went broke twice and both times were through my own stupidity, but I took stock on both occasions and fought back.

I would have love to have been posting on this site in 2013 when the club announced its 5 year plan for top 4 finish and flag by 2020, not sure many would have posted at that time that this plan was too ambitious and was not possible due to the Ross Lyon legacy and that Lyon's legacy would still be at the forefront of our 2019 campaign.

To be successful you need the following:
- Professional Board
- High end administration
- Quality coaching & fitness group
- Quality recruiters and developers
- Strong well spread (age) playing list
- Winning culture

The club has failed in too many of these areas over the past 7 years to be successful.
To blame this on Lyon's legacy is naive at best.

I do think one of the big issues of the era was the move to Seaford, I believe the club lost identity and professional culture during this period and the site was never fully embraced by the playing group.

Where were the Tigers and Dogs in 2011?

2018 was a disaster, but at least the club is trying to make the off field changes to become more professional. I don't think Richo is the way forward, but at least we are trying to get the back end right and have the correct support in place to firstly see if he has what it takes and secondly to have the structure for his replacement if that time comes.

2019 is going top be a fascinating and defining year for the club.

[rodgerfox]

I think it's wrong to think that list management doesn't have long term repercussions.

If we were able to rebuild post the Lyon era WITHOUT compromised drafts, we could have introduced new talent whilst we had a good senior core of Riewoldt, Montagna, Dempster, Fisher etc.

But we didn't, because we couldn't.

As a result we had a void of talent coming through, which wasn't addressed until 2014.

By which time, our senior group was gone, leaving a huge void of leadership to bring the new talent through.


There's no doubt that the list management from the Lyon era has played an enormous role in the teams plight in the current day.

The same as Carlton missing the draft about 15 years ago still reverberates.


However, the perfect storm of draft neglect under Lyon, combined with compromised drafts is the perfect storm for shitness.

And here we are.

[Scollop]

... but the leadership void created by Lyon has stifled their development.

Ross Lyon left in 2011. There have been coaches, presidents, and countless board members and leaders at the club (including a dominant figure who was captain for 5 more years after Lyon departed). What was stopping them all from any succession planning? The worst thing that happened after Watters was sacked was that the St Kilda board forgot about any lessons learnt from the mistakes of messiah worshipping and also forgot to plan...for life after Riewoldt. They are all as much to blame for the so called leadership void as is Lyon

I don't care who's fault it is.

But the fact remains we have a big leadership vacuum and are devoid of a solid senior group.

That stems from the fact that only Armitage and Steven came through the ranks during that time.

It's important to work out how the club let it happen. If you can't handle the truth and can't recognise why those mistakes were made then you won't learn from them will you? Scott Watters was booted out of this club because he did not adhere to the messiah worshopping. First it was too much power in the hands of the coach and then that shifetd....but it was self interest and selfishness again rather than the long term interests of the young playing group. There was too much power imho in the hands of a few senior players.

Watters knew that the playing group pined for Tosser and had issues when it came to leadership and the self belief to 'go again' and aim for the ultimate prize. He wanted to look forward but the senior playing group (led by the captain) were fixated on that bloody rear vision mirror! After Watters was sacked the leadership needed to be spread between various coaches, administrators and a larger playing group. Instead we had further concentration of power left with that senior group. No wonder there is a vaccuum after Roo and Joey retired.

Richo seems to me to be devoid of any leadership skills and unable to empower the playing group. Geary has been thrown under a bus and set up for failure. Hopefully our players, coaches and admin will move forward and unite without the ghosts from the recent past meddling in the current affairs of the club

[saynta]

The saints would have recruited Rioli and Darling if I had had any say in recruitment at the Saints.

It was as obvious as dog's balls and just shows how incompetent Tosser Lyin was.