ITK's?????

[rodgerfox]

It's obvious why.

Agree and that's why it's important to have a coach who can get the most from our players in order to imply some form of potential future success.

Richo selling the future of the club is cringy stuff.

It certainly wouldn't hurt. But it's not going to make a huge difference.

Tom Lynch chose Richmond because of the 'big games' and big crowds.

Treloar chose Collingwood, and Shiel and Devon Smith chose Essendon to play in ANZAC Day and other 'big games'.

No matter who our coach is, we'll never compete with that.

Clarkson couldn't get Hawthorn over the line with Smith, Shiel, Lynch - so what hope do we have? We somehow managed to get Carlisle over Hawthorn, which was a great get.

[wally]

Plus these guys mentioned have been playing in sides that have getting beaten on a regular basis GWS not so much lately,
I'm sure the thought of losing more games than winning in the foreseeable future would be a turn-off.
Haw & Coll must be running out of salary cap space plus a lack of trade offerings would be a negative.

Back on subject I appreciated Jaxon's input.

[dragit]

It's obvious why.

Agree and that's why it's important to have a coach who can get the most from our players in order to imply some form of potential future success.

Richo selling the future of the club is cringy stuff.

It certainly wouldn't hurt. But it's not going to make a huge difference.

Tom Lynch chose Richmond because of the 'big games' and big crowds.

Treloar chose Collingwood, and Shiel and Devon Smith chose Essendon to play in ANZAC Day and other 'big games'.

No matter who our coach is, we'll never compete with that.

Clarkson couldn't get Hawthorn over the line with Smith, Shiel, Lynch - so what hope do we have? We somehow managed to get Carlisle over Hawthorn, which was a great get.

Hawthorn have added Mitchell, O'Meara, Wingard, Scully… none of which considered coming to us.

They have completely re-built their midfield via trades.

[Cairnsman]

I probably didn't articulate well, I'm suggesting an ITK is not someone in the inner sanctum, whereas Jaxon's offerings over the journey have had the appearance of being someone that is privi to the occasional piece of information as a result of being employed by or being close to someone in an AFL connected industry as well as being a saints person. Finey fits that description. The suggestion that his negativity and resentment has coincided around the time of his sacking and the clubs poor performance was a suggestion he is no longer privi to the occasional piece of information and hence he is now just one of us, without a clue about what happens in the inner sanctum and is bitter and twisted and free to unload as a result of the clubs poor 2018 which probably hasn't been helped due to his unemployment status

Understood, and could be correct.

I don't claim to have any real knowledge on the situation.
My whole angst in this episode is the 'acceptance as fact' the statement from Jaxons regarding 'our presentation' because he's an 'ITK'.
I just don't believe, for a number of reasons, that denigrating portrayal of our presentation to Shiel that he posted.
And I find it staggering that some posters just accept it without question.

Yep and it's why I'm a big advocate for media training to be introduced at primary school level. We need to teach future generations some of the 101 tools for living on the web. Teaching future generations how to be free thinkers and to know when they are being manipulated or "influenced" as it is referred to in cyber speak.

[Mr Magic]

I probably didn't articulate well, I'm suggesting an ITK is not someone in the inner sanctum, whereas Jaxon's offerings over the journey have had the appearance of being someone that is privi to the occasional piece of information as a result of being employed by or being close to someone in an AFL connected industry as well as being a saints person. Finey fits that description. The suggestion that his negativity and resentment has coincided around the time of his sacking and the clubs poor performance was a suggestion he is no longer privi to the occasional piece of information and hence he is now just one of us, without a clue about what happens in the inner sanctum and is bitter and twisted and free to unload as a result of the clubs poor 2018 which probably hasn't been helped due to his unemployment status

Understood, and could be correct.

I don't claim to have any real knowledge on the situation.
My whole angst in this episode is the 'acceptance as fact' the statement from Jaxons regarding 'our presentation' because he's an 'ITK'.
I just don't believe, for a number of reasons, that denigrating portrayal of our presentation to Shiel that he posted.
And I find it staggering that some posters just accept it without question.

Who are you actually talking about though?

You've thrown me under the bus as some wide eyed git that believes everything that some rando internet poster spruiks.

Connecting a few dots I would say that there is some truth in what jaxons was saying, but I don't accept anything as gospel.

Do you really think he was making up these accusations from nothing? It feels like your absolute disgust in his delivery is clouding your judgement in that there could possibly be some truth in the subject.

FWIW - I think we are embaressing, prematurely extending richo to SEVEN years, our second longest serving coach ever and also one of the worst performing coaches in the history of the sport makes us an absolute laughing stock right now and no amount of deck chair shuffling will mask this.

The proof is in the pudding, Shiel rejected our massive offer like most other stars who have moved in recent times. Whether that is because of our pitch, prospects or precarious coaching scenario... good players are steering clear despite being offered record contracts.

Jaxons was clearly venting and probably went too far, but I imagine there is absolutely some truth in what he was suggesting.

Does anyone accept jaxons posts as fact?

I doubt it.

Do people think that our presentations to prospective stars is behind other clubs?

I would say yes and our inability to attract quality players would support this belief.

I thought by highlighting a portion of your post, referring to the presentation, that it was quite clear what I was referring to. Obviously not in your case.

Jaxons stated quite clearly that 'our presentation' was substandard compared to the others and that it was the reason Shiel dismissed us a 'suitor'. He didn't mention any other reason.

He stated it as a fact, not his opinion.

I took exception to that 'fact' as I believe it is crap.
You obviously think there is something in it.
That's fine but ask yourself why you believe in it?
Maybe because it fits into your narrative of what's wrong with the Club at the moment and confirms your distaste of Richo as coach?

And I'll ask the same question I've asked a number of times in this thread.
A 'presentation' so bad and not a single journalist picked up on the story?
Seriously?
Scores of journalists running around trying to 'sniff out' any story they can and every single one of them missed out on this one?
Simply beggars belief, IMHO

[rodgerfox]

It's obvious why.

Agree and that's why it's important to have a coach who can get the most from our players in order to imply some form of potential future success.

Richo selling the future of the club is cringy stuff.

It certainly wouldn't hurt. But it's not going to make a huge difference.

Tom Lynch chose Richmond because of the 'big games' and big crowds.

Treloar chose Collingwood, and Shiel and Devon Smith chose Essendon to play in ANZAC Day and other 'big games'.

No matter who our coach is, we'll never compete with that.

Clarkson couldn't get Hawthorn over the line with Smith, Shiel, Lynch - so what hope do we have? We somehow managed to get Carlisle over Hawthorn, which was a great get.

Hawthorn have added Mitchell, O'Meara, Wingard, Scully… none of which considered coming to us.

They have completely re-built their midfield via trades.

Mitchell chose them.

O'Meara wasn't overly sought after, nor was Scully. Wingard was traded for Burton.

I have no doubt they'd not choose us, for reasons I've mentioned. But I also don't doubt that if Richmond, Essendon or Collingwood wanted any of those guys they'd be there instead of Hawthorn. Once Carlton claw their way back up, you'll be able to add them to the list too.

[Cairnsman]

It's obvious why.

Agree and that's why it's important to have a coach who can get the most from our players in order to imply some form of potential future success.

Richo selling the future of the club is cringy stuff.

It certainly wouldn't hurt. But it's not going to make a huge difference.

Tom Lynch chose Richmond because of the 'big games' and big crowds.

Treloar chose Collingwood, and Shiel and Devon Smith chose Essendon to play in ANZAC Day and other 'big games'.

No matter who our coach is, we'll never compete with that.

Clarkson couldn't get Hawthorn over the line with Smith, Shiel, Lynch - so what hope do we have? We somehow managed to get Carlisle over Hawthorn, which was a great get.

It's a thing isn't it RF, I also think the other issue that isn't highlighted enough is marquee players probably grapple with becoming the unwanted messiah and all the pressure it brings and fear if they don't deliver to expectation that it could be a career killer. Justin Leppitsch admitted it was the reason he turned down a godfather offer from the Saints.

[asiu]

mmmm

thats an observation

[Cairnsman]

fits into "your" narrative, that's it right there. Objectivity, NIL.

[dragit]

Jaxons stated quite clearly that 'our presentation' was substandard compared to the others and that it was the reason Shiel dismissed us a 'suitor'. He didn't mention any other reason.

He stated it as a fact, not his opinion.

No he didn't, he suggested our pitch was poor but he didn't pretend to know all of the reasons why Shiel didn't choose us…

Most embarrassing football club at the moment.
Offering Shiel millions more than any other club and no chance of him coming.
No leadership and no one to sell our club properly.
If you knew the difference of our pitch versus the other clubs you would demand the immediate removal of all key figures at our club.

Do you think that our team of Richo, Geary and Hannebery (a player we hadn't even traded in yet) selling our 4-win-club made an enticing presentation?

[asiu]

disconnect ?

i was commenting on the sharpness of the
justin leppitsch point

(our desperatness )

n then went off into thought about
how MM comments about the media missing a big story
is also a very valid observation

objectivity .... balanced

hopefully.

[Cairnsman]

Jaxons stated quite clearly that 'our presentation' was substandard compared to the others and that it was the reason Shiel dismissed us a 'suitor'. He didn't mention any other reason.

He stated it as a fact, not his opinion.

No he didn't, he suggested our pitch was poor but he didn't pretend to know all of the reasons why Shiel didn't choose us…

Most embarrassing football club at the moment.
Offering Shiel millions more than any other club and no chance of him coming.
No leadership and no one to sell our club properly.
If you knew the difference of our pitch versus the other clubs you would demand the immediate removal of all key figures at our club.

Do you think that our team of Richo, Geary and Hannebery (a player we hadn't even traded in yet) selling our 4-win-club made an enticing presentation?

Jake Carlisle chose to come to us at the end of 2015 after winning the wooden spoon in 2014 and coming 14th in 2015, both those years only yielded 10 games combined.

[Mr Magic]

Jaxons stated quite clearly that 'our presentation' was substandard compared to the others and that it was the reason Shiel dismissed us a 'suitor'. He didn't mention any other reason.

He stated it as a fact, not his opinion.

No he didn't, he suggested our pitch was poor but he didn't pretend to know all of the reasons why Shiel didn't choose us…

Most embarrassing football club at the moment.
Offering Shiel millions more than any other club and no chance of him coming.
No leadership and no one to sell our club properly.
If you knew the difference of our pitch versus the other clubs you would demand the immediate removal of all key figures at our club.

Do you think that our team of Richo, Geary and Hannebery (a player we hadn't even traded in yet) selling our 4-win-club made an enticing presentation?

I have no idea - I wasn't there.
Neither were you.
All you've got to hang your hat on is the post from Jaxons, which you quoted.
You and I are obviously reading his post differently.
To me he is categorically stating that Shiel wasn't coming to us because our 'pitch' was no good compared with others.

Sorry, on this one I've got to disagree with you.

[wally]

Is it possible he looked at Roo, a club legend like Hayes, Harvey, Winmar, before him and thought I cant see winning a
premiership in my time here either.

[rodgerfox]

It's obvious why.

Agree and that's why it's important to have a coach who can get the most from our players in order to imply some form of potential future success.

Richo selling the future of the club is cringy stuff.

It certainly wouldn't hurt. But it's not going to make a huge difference.

Tom Lynch chose Richmond because of the 'big games' and big crowds.

Treloar chose Collingwood, and Shiel and Devon Smith chose Essendon to play in ANZAC Day and other 'big games'.

No matter who our coach is, we'll never compete with that.

Clarkson couldn't get Hawthorn over the line with Smith, Shiel, Lynch - so what hope do we have? We somehow managed to get Carlisle over Hawthorn, which was a great get.

It's a thing isn't it RF, I also think the other issue that isn't highlighted enough is marquee players probably grapple with becoming the unwanted messiah and all the pressure it brings and fear if they don't deliver to expectation that it could be a career killer. Justin Leppitsch admitted it was the reason he turned down a godfather offer from the Saints.

It's absolutely a thing.

I see it as an 'unforseen' consequence of the AFL's 'big club' policy.

The 'big club' fixturing generates squillions for the game, which allows the AFL to 'prop up' smaller clubs. The other equalisation methods such as the Draft and Salary Cap keep things fair on-field and everyone is happy right?

Well, the Draft and Salary Cap don't work if certain clubs can hand pick players from other clubs using incentives that only 3 or 4 other clubs have access to. And not 'earnt' incentives - incentives that were implemented by the AFL.


So I think the AFL have created a bit of a monster that they'll need to reel in. Free Agency hasn't helped either - but the Salary Cap is in place to manage that. However that is based on the whole concept that money is the motivating factor for players leaving clubs. However this whole 'big game' thing has now become a bigger factor than money for the modern footballer. And that's a big problem for the AFL.


Tom Lynch, Devon Smith, Prestia, Treloar - whilst being able to keep Reiwoldt, DeGoey, Martin, Daniher, Cotchin, Rance etc.

These guys aren't leaving, and when a bidding war breaks out for players - these clubs get them and the same reasons are given each time - "big games, big crowds, ANZAC Day, Dreamtime at the G, Queen's Birthday, Season Opener, ANZAC day eve" etc.

Compared to "hey dude, you get to play in China and on Sunday arvo's in front of 25k at Docklands on a Sunday arvo".


And to those who keep stating that 'when we start winning, we'll get the big games' - you're delusional. There is a reason that these clubs hold those spots, and it is not because of their ladder positions. It's because of their huge historical supporter bases and the revenue generating power that comes from them.

[asiu]

'n then went off into thought about
how MM comments about the media missing a big story
is also a very valid observation

'n i was wondering
if the media were playing the
'dont kick the dog whilst it's down' Rule

[Linton Lodger]

''turning on the club" ... might be a bit harsh

if we are looking for a moment when his 'vibe' changed down a gear
... it was probably as Shostack was out manouvered

Good point.

Out manouvered? Shostack never got on the track, indeed didn't even get to the garage.

[Yorkeys]

So maybe like preparing for the Cup put a lot more energy and planning into beating Collingwood, Essendon and one of Richmond and Hawthorn during the season. Then you get the consequential media attention and appreciation from the bookies. Give those big boys a real contest and piggyback them into the higher tier fixtures. Trade offs involved against other also rans but if economic considerations trump overall season winning then perhaps you prime players for certain games and use well researched tactics. Remember Terry Wallace. No finals but a few good bragging rights. Well maybe a couple of finals.

[asiu]

''turning on the club" ... might be a bit harsh

if we are looking for a moment when his 'vibe' changed down a gear
... it was probably as Shostack was out manouvered

Good point.

Out manouvered? Shostack never got on the track, indeed didn't even get to the garage.

i agree with that

flew the kite , way too early

[rodgerfox]

So maybe like preparing for the Cup put a lot more energy and planning into beating Collingwood, Essendon and one of Richmond and Hawthorn during the season. Then you get the consequential media attention and appreciation from the bookies. Give those big boys a real contest and piggyback them into the higher tier fixtures. Trade offs involved against other also rans but if economic considerations trump overall season winning then perhaps you prime players for certain games and use well researched tactics. Remember Terry Wallace. No finals but a few good bragging rights. Well maybe a couple of finals.

Doesn't matter.

You get prime spots, if you can fill the joint every year.

We can't. Never have, and never will.

It's just the way it is. It's the system.

If people don't like it, follow a different sport.

[skeptic]

So maybe like preparing for the Cup put a lot more energy and planning into beating Collingwood, Essendon and one of Richmond and Hawthorn during the season. Then you get the consequential media attention and appreciation from the bookies. Give those big boys a real contest and piggyback them into the higher tier fixtures. Trade offs involved against other also rans but if economic considerations trump overall season winning then perhaps you prime players for certain games and use well researched tactics. Remember Terry Wallace. No finals but a few good bragging rights. Well maybe a couple of finals.

Doesn't matter.

You get prime spots, if you can fill the joint every year.

We can't. Never have, and never will.

It's just the way it is. It's the system.

If people don't like it, follow a different sport.

This I disagree with.

I think we could if we had a proper off-field management with an excellent, well thought out long term strategy. I don’t know that we have or have ever had that

[dragit]

The current system is plain stupid, the bigger clubs getting the marque fixtures and FTA prime time is a self fulfilling prophecy.

The competition would be better long term with a better spread in membership numbers.

[Impatient Sainter]

Rogerfox is very astute and his post above is exactly correct. The only way we would grow our attendance and big game numbers would be through years of sustained sucess eg Hawthirn since the 70's. It is possible but highly improbable with the current systems in place.

If we can get everything right at the same time eg Board, CEO, Football Dept, Recruitment, Medical, Coaches & Playing List we might have a chance. But history states we have only acheived that once in 135 years so dont hold your breath.

To keep to the topic re ITK'S I totally believe that Jaxons comments re Sheil were accurate, given the timings and final outcome.

[saynta]

Rogerfox is very astute and his post above is exactly correct. The only way we would grow our attendance and big game numbers would be through years of sustained sucess eg Hawthirn since the 70's. It is possible but highly improbable with the current systems in place.

If we can get everything right at the same time eg Board, CEO, Football Dept, Recruitment, Medical, Coaches & Playing List we might have a chance. But history states we have only acheived that once in 135 years so dont hold your breath.

To keep to the topic re ITK'S I totally believe that Jaxons comments re Sheil were accurate, given the timings and final outcome.

I don't. I think his comments were ill conceived and pure bulls***.

I also think any credability he had with the forum has been deminished by his outlandish statements.

[asiu]

why would he go all 'outlandish'

which is code for lie ... yea ?