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Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
Remember when the pies played in a grand final, then only a couple of years later got a priority pick to have 2 top 5 picks?
No wonder they changed the rules for PP's what a joke.
Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
You may have missed my point. What i am trying to say is that in 2016 Richmond finished 13. That was not a true reflection on the quality of their list if the next year with much the same list, they won a GF and were probably still the benchmark team in 2018. Their list had a few tweaks, thats it. Collingwood also went from 13th to a GF in one year 2018, with much the same list. Not saying we are in a similar situation, just saying that the position you finish on the ladder doesnt mean your list is rubbish - there can be other factors at play.
Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
You may have missed my point. What i am trying to say is that in 2016 Richmond finished 13. That was not a true reflection on the quality of their list if the next year with much the same list, they won a GF and were probably still the benchmark team in 2018. Their list had a few tweaks, thats it. Collingwood also went from 13th to a GF in one year 2018, with much the same list. Not saying we are in a similar situation, just saying that the position you finish on the ladder doesnt mean your list is rubbish - there can be other factors at play.
Collingwood did finish 13th in 2017 - but with 9 wins. Their worst efforts under Buckly are 9 wins (2016, 2017)
In 2016 the Tiges still won 8 games (13th). In 2015 the Tiges won 15 games.
Big difference compared to 4 wins (Saints 2014, 2018).
Last edited by gwiltyascharged on Mon 22 Oct 2018 9:17pm, edited 1 time in total.
Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
You may have missed my point. What i am trying to say is that in 2016 Richmond finished 13. That was not a true reflection on the quality of their list if the next year with much the same list, they won a GF and were probably still the benchmark team in 2018. Their list had a few tweaks, thats it. Collingwood also went from 13th to a GF in one year 2018, with much the same list. Not saying we are in a similar situation, just saying that the position you finish on the ladder doesnt mean your list is rubbish - there can be other factors at play.
When did Collingwood finish 13th? Their worst year under Bucks was 9 wins.
In 2015 the Tiges still won 8 games. In 2016 the Tiges won 15 games.
So big difference compared to 4 wins (Saints 2014, 2018).
Collingwood finished 13th in 2017
You have the tigers season round the wrong way, they finished 13 with 8 wins in 2016 (therefore 13th to first)
And yes big difference between them and us, but i have made the point a few times that i am not comparing teams.
Point is that much the same team finished 13th as the one that won a GF next season, meaning that their ladder position in 2016 was not indicative of their list
And yes big difference between them and us, but i have made the point a few times that i am not comparing teams.
Point is that much the same team finished 13th as the one that won a GF next season, meaning that their ladder position in 2016 was not indicative of their list
And yes big difference between them and us, but i have made the point a few times that i am not comparing teams.
Point is that much the same team finished 13th as the one that won a GF next season, meaning that their ladder position in 2016 was not indicative of their list
Big mountain to climb from 4 wins.
Again, not saying they will win a GF, just sayin the list is better than their ladder position. Where they finish in '19 is an unknown, but if they have a good run they could win atleast another 1/2 dozen games. Hell if they kicked straight they might have won that many last year!
Last edited by Crossy66 on Mon 22 Oct 2018 9:34pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are no coaches that I can find since 2000 who had a season of 4 wins (or less) and went on to win a flag.
I have not looked back further than 2000.
These are the modern day coaches who have won flags (plus Buckley) and the number in () is their worst ever coaching season number of wins.
Bomber Thompson (7)
Adam Simpson (11)
Hardwick (6 in 2010 - his first season)
Buckley (9)
Longmire (13)
Alistair Clarkson (5 in 2005 - his first season)
Chris Scott (11)
It would be an unprecedented miracle for Richo to come back from here.
I think the club can bounce back quickly. I just have a strong suspicion it wont be with Richo at the helm.
gwiltyascharged wrote: ↑Mon 22 Oct 2018 9:33pm
There are no coaches that I can find since 2000 who had a season of 4 wins (or less) and went on to win a flag.
I have not looked back further than 2000.
These are the modern day coaches who have won flags (plus Buckley) and the number in () is their worst ever coaching season number of wins.
Bomber Thompson (7)
Adam Simpson (11)
Hardwick (6 in 2010 - his first season)
Buckley (9)
Longmire (13)
Alistair Clarkson (5 in 2005 - his first season)
Chris Scott (11)
It would be an unprecedented miracle for Richo to come back from here.
I think the club can bounce back quickly. I just have a strong suspicion it wont be with Richo at the helm.
you are right that FOR RICHO it would be a massive turn around (a GF win). I hope he can of course, but must be considered improbable
But you simply cant compare other teams / coaches statistically because there are too many other variables.
gwiltyascharged wrote:There are no coaches that I can find since 2000 who had a season of 4 wins (or less) and went on to win a flag.
I have not looked back further than 2000.
These are the modern day coaches who have won flags (plus Buckley) and the number in () is their worst ever coaching season number of wins.
Bomber Thompson (7)
Adam Simpson (11)
Hardwick (6 in 2010 - his first season)
Buckley (9)
Longmire (13)
Alistair Clarkson (5 in 2005 - his first season)
Chris Scott (11)
It would be an unprecedented miracle for Richo to come back from here.
I think the club can bounce back quickly. I just have a strong suspicion it wont be with Richo at the helm.
Collingwood under Malthouse won 5 games in 2005 and played finals for the next seven years including a flag.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
gwiltyascharged wrote:There are no coaches that I can find since 2000 who had a season of 4 wins (or less) and went on to win a flag.
I have not looked back further than 2000.
These are the modern day coaches who have won flags (plus Buckley) and the number in () is their worst ever coaching season number of wins.
Bomber Thompson (7)
Adam Simpson (11)
Hardwick (6 in 2010 - his first season)
Buckley (9)
Longmire (13)
Alistair Clarkson (5 in 2005 - his first season)
Chris Scott (11)
It would be an unprecedented miracle for Richo to come back from here.
I think the club can bounce back quickly. I just have a strong suspicion it wont be with Richo at the helm.
Collingwood under Malthouse won 5 games in 2005 and played finals for the next seven years including a flag.
Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
?????
"...Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's."
sunsaint wrote: ↑Mon 22 Oct 2018 11:48pm
The only meaningful conclusion you could draw from pointing out Malthouse - he was a brilliant coach that achieved results is AR in the same league?
No.
Matlhouse already had a flag at WC when he went to Collingwood.
One season of 5 wins.
Remember Richo has already had two seasons of 4 wins.
2014 and 2018.
So there is no comparison.
Would take a miracle for Richo to come back from here.
The club will bounce back but it won't be with Richo.
Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
?????
"...Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's."
Not sure why all the question marks, but i'll assume you dont know what i mean.
I just offered it as another example of where a team's ladder position one year was not a true reflection of their list, SO here is an example:
Collingwood finished LAST in 1976 (then recruited Hafey)
They played in two grand finals in 1977 (finishing 1st at end of home & away season)
They made the prelim final in 1978
They played in the 1979 grand final
They played in the 1980 grand final
They played in the 1981 Grand final
Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
?????
"...Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's."
Not sure why all the question marks, but i'll assume you dont know what i mean.
I just offered it as another example of where a team's ladder position one year was not a true reflection of their list, SO here is an example:
Collingwood finished LAST in 1976 (then recruited Hafey)
They played in TWO grand finals in 1977 (finishing 1st at end of home & away season)
They made the prelim final in 1978
They played in the 1979 grand final
They played in the 1980 grand final
They played in the 1981 Grand final
Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
?????
"...Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's."
Not sure why all the question marks, but i'll assume you dont know what i mean.
I just offered it as another example of where a team's ladder position one year was not a true reflection of their list, SO here is an example:
Collingwood finished LAST in 1976 (then recruited Hafey)
They played in TWO grand finals in 1977 (finishing 1st at end of home & away season)
They made the prelim final in 1978
They played in the 1979 grand final
They played in the 1980 grand final
They played in the 1981 Grand final
Next year they sacked the coach!
Question marks were this, bro:
"Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999."
Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
?????
"...Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's."
Not sure why all the question marks, but i'll assume you dont know what i mean.
I just offered it as another example of where a team's ladder position one year was not a true reflection of their list, SO here is an example:
Collingwood finished LAST in 1976 (then recruited Hafey)
They played in TWO grand finals in 1977 (finishing 1st at end of home & away season)
They made the prelim final in 1978
They played in the 1979 grand final
They played in the 1980 grand final
They played in the 1981 Grand final
Next year they sacked the coach!
Question marks were this, bro:
"Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999."
Ok, so you dont like my example from 1977. Too far back, No problem., I'll stick to one current example.
2016 A large number of negative Tigers fans wanted to sack the coach the CEO and president because they finished 13th - next year they won it.
All i am saying is that going back one year, 30 years, 50 years and across any sport, its not a fact that a teams list is abysmal based only on their last years ladder position. Lots of contributing factors.
dragit wrote: ↑Tue 23 Oct 2018 10:17am
So we don't have a bottom 4 list, richo is great developer of talent, a great operator and a good coach... we've just been incredibly unlucky?
I reckon this sums up what the OP was talking about.
Not sure about others, but I agree that there have been a heap of issues, but i just think our list is better than the 2018 result. Not good enough for a flag, but definitely better than many think.
All the other stuff has been a problem, but i get the feeling that with Lethlean coming in and a few other changes, we might be turning the corner, so there is some cause for optimism. When you look at all the recent changes, it s pretty clear the club had got lots wrong, including extending the coaching contract. But i expect that with 12 mil debt, a payout is not so palatable.
Most of our problems have been self inflicted, the only areas where luck played a part was with the draw and injuries but thats true for all clubs
Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
You may have missed my point. What i am trying to say is that in 2016 Richmond finished 13. That was not a true reflection on the quality of their list if the next year with much the same list, they won a GF and were probably still the benchmark team in 2018. Their list had a few tweaks, thats it. Collingwood also went from 13th to a GF in one year 2018, with much the same list. Not saying we are in a similar situation, just saying that the position you finish on the ladder doesnt mean your list is rubbish - there can be other factors at play.
True. But in our case, the list is certainly rubbish. Its almost DIV 2 type stuff compared to most other teams in the comp. No getting around it.
Interesting debate.
I would add that where you finish on the ladder is a fact, but what the cause is, is not.
I.e. Tigers 13 to 1st, Pies 13 to first. I remember Collingwood going from last to a multiple grand finals and a prelim three consecutive years late 70's.
Clearly the Tigers list , recruiting and coach was not Abysmal. Add a two players and they become the benchmark. (BTW not saying we are the Tigers or Pies!)
Not sure how far back you are going but Collingwood have not had a very poor season (4 wins or less) since 1999.
Tigers was 2007. They won a flag in 2017.
Doggies 2003. They won a flag in 2016.
So not quite sure about the dramatic upswings you refer to, unless they were back in the VFL days?
Collingwood had a dramatic upswing from 1976 to 1977.
You may have missed my point. What i am trying to say is that in 2016 Richmond finished 13. That was not a true reflection on the quality of their list if the next year with much the same list, they won a GF and were probably still the benchmark team in 2018. Their list had a few tweaks, thats it. Collingwood also went from 13th to a GF in one year 2018, with much the same list. Not saying we are in a similar situation, just saying that the position you finish on the ladder doesnt mean your list is rubbish - there can be other factors at play.
True. But in our case, the list is certainly rubbish. Its almost DIV 2 type stuff compared to most other teams in the comp. No getting around it.
No worries. Thats your view and there are many that will agree with you, including a few learned ex players. Watching during 2018 also supports your opinion. I have a different view so who knows.
As someone else posted earlier, North were a lock for a wooden spoon last year and they surprised everyone. I think we will do the same.
I think Ratten is a massive get and with all the other changes including a blow torch under the senior coach, we will go ok
