If we had the right development coaches

[Barneysaint]

I tend to think if we had the right coach, development coaches and a better culture, I think our players would be a lot better. I tend to think it's the players not getting the right development to get the best out of themselves, ie Billings, Mccartin when fit, Savage, Newans, Dunstan, Spencer, Acres and Bruce. If they were at a club like Hawthorn, Richmond, West Coast, Melbourne or Collingwood, they more than likely would be playing to their potential and be great players. Look at the pies tonight. Maynard, Maine, Cox, Langdon, Greenwood. Not household names but have great belief and development put into them by the right people. Great culture. St kilda don't have any of that. If so, I think we would be a much better side. Don't need champion players to be a great side. A champion team will always beat a team of champions. We just don't have the foundations to do so.

[Jacks Back]

We have pushed most of the top 6 teams this year with little to no structure or game plan and a few injuries to players we couldn't afford to lose so the right development coaches may make all the difference.

Hawthorn 76-80
Richmond 57-111
West Coast 88-101
Melbourne 119-117
Collingwood 72-100
GWS draw earlier in the year

[Harvey To Hayes]

Not that long since Collingwood were a rabble and Bucks was dead man walking...

[chico2001]

If I had a <edited by mods> I would be a <edited by mods> star .

<warning for inappropriate post>

[BenLong#21]

Not that long since Collingwood were a rabble and Bucks was dead man walking...

Bit of a myth on here.
Bucks has never had a season with fewer than 9 wins. He is batting at 54%.

Richo has had two seasons with only 4 wins and one with only 6- so 3 very poor years out of 5. He is batting at 33%.
So it isnt really an honest comparison.

If Richo won 9 games this year we would be all up and about and full of optimism. 9 wins is the nadir for Buckley. Bucks has had a year with 17 wins and a year with 16 wins. He now has 2 finals wins.

If you think 9 wins in a season is a 'rabble' - what do you call 4 wins in a season? Genuine question.

If Buckley had a season with only 4 wins (in his 5th season) he would be gone. Without a doubt.

[Harvey To Hayes]

Not that long since Collingwood were a rabble and Bucks was dead man walking...

Bit of a myth on here.
Bucks has never had a season with fewer than 9 wins. He is batting at 54%.

Richo has had two seasons with only 4 wins and one with only 6- so 3 very poor years out of 5. He is batting at 33%.
So it isnt really an honest comparison.

If Richo won 9 games this year we would be all up and about and full of optimism. 9 wins is the nadir for Buckley. Bucks has had a year with 17 wins and a year with 16 wins. He now has 2 finals wins.

If you think 9 wins in a season is a 'rabble' - what do you call 4 wins in a season? Genuine question.

If Buckley had a season with only 4 wins (in his 5th season) he would be gone. Without a doubt.

I’m on the fence about Richo but comparing the two on just win/loss is unfair on him. Bucks took over a team that in 2011 went 20-2 with 167 perfentage then ripped the guts out of the side and took them backwards five years running (almost certainly a coaching first):
2012 16-6
2013 14-8
2014 11-11
2015 10-12
2016 9-13
He righted the ship now but only got the chance because he’s a club champion and Eddie’s lovechild, anyone else would have been on the curb...
Richo on the other hand inhereted a basket case list from Watters (and Lyon) which at least he improved for a few years...

[samuraisaint]

We have pushed most of the top 6 teams this year with little to no structure or game plan and a few injuries to players we couldn't afford to lose so the right development coaches may make all the difference.

Hawthorn 76-80
Richmond 57-111
West Coast 88-101
Melbourne 119-117
Collingwood 72-100
GWS draw earlier in the year

This needs to be bookmarked. And remember we only lost to Richmond by 4 goals at the MCG too.
I think our development coach went over to coach the AFLW side this year, so there's been a bit of upheaval there.
As far as I am concerned we absolutely need a Director of Coaching (Mark Williams?) and a complete spill of all coaching staff at the club. I can see us being very aggressive at the trade table during the trading period, so we should have a high turnover of players, making this a good time to ensure that we have the right people in the right roles.
I am very concerned at Sandy's performances, but can put that down to the aforementioned injuries. It is obvious however that a lot of our players have not improved, and in many cases look to have gone backwards in their development. This could also reflect a lack of leadership at the club, which all starts at the top.

[Cairnsman]

Not that long since Collingwood were a rabble and Bucks was dead man walking...

Bit of a myth on here.
Bucks has never had a season with fewer than 9 wins. He is batting at 54%.

Richo has had two seasons with only 4 wins and one with only 6- so 3 very poor years out of 5. He is batting at 33%.
So it isnt really an honest comparison.

If Richo won 9 games this year we would be all up and about and full of optimism. 9 wins is the nadir for Buckley. Bucks has had a year with 17 wins and a year with 16 wins. He now has 2 finals wins.

If you think 9 wins in a season is a 'rabble' - what do you call 4 wins in a season? Genuine question.

If Buckley had a season with only 4 wins (in his 5th season) he would be gone. Without a doubt.

I’m on the fence about Richo but comparing the two on just win/loss is unfair on him. Bucks took over a team that in 2011 went 20-2 with 167 perfentage then ripped the guts out of the side and took them backwards five years running (almost certainly a coaching first):
2012 16-6
2013 14-8
2014 11-11
2015 10-12
2016 9-13
He righted the ship now but only got the chance because he’s a club champion and Eddie’s lovechild, anyone else would have been on the curb...
Richo on the other hand inhereted a basket case list from Watters (and Lyon) which at least he improved for a few years...

Yeah and Buckley is at a power club with significantly more and beter resources and arguably better list/recruiting. Has been a very talented list, albeit young for a few years and also had really bad luck with injuries. Sound familiar.

Blind freddy could see the list had a good core of talent but just needed time.

Changing the coach at the Pies last year would have set the club back and was worth rolling the dice with Buckley for another season.

Our list needs continued enhancement and more time to develop. Not a new coach. Well not right now.

You should have used 33% as your new nic

[rodgerfox]

If a club sees something great about a coach, a trait or ability that they see as special in regards to coaching - why would you sack them?

Even if they have flaws, or weaknesses in other areas, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You harness the strengths, and work on the weaknesses.


Hardwick and Buckley clearly fell into this category.


Richardson? Well I'm not sure.

Hardwick coached his team to finals, and his players adore him. The club saw genuine strengths in him. And addressed the flaws and weaknesses.

Buckley coached his team to finals, is an incredible communicator and was building a group that idolise him.
Again, they saw strengths and addressed weaknesses.


I'm far from an ITK, so I'm purely speculating from the couch, but I just can't see any strengths in Richardson.

Our young players, including highly touted draftees, have not come on.
He can barely string two words together.
Our results have been deplorable.
Our style of play is pungent.
He's the opposite of inspirational to the fan base.

Collingwood and Richmond didn't just 'stick with the coach' and 'give them time' - they harnessed some existing high level strengths that they had, and addressed their flaws.

If I could see some high level, or even intermediate level strengths in Richardson, then I'd absolutely be advocating the same approach with him.


But I just can't see it.

[spert]

We have pushed most of the top 6 teams this year with little to no structure or game plan and a few injuries to players we couldn't afford to lose so the right development coaches may make all the difference.

Hawthorn 76-80
Richmond 57-111
West Coast 88-101
Melbourne 119-117
Collingwood 72-100
GWS draw earlier in the year

This needs to be bookmarked. And remember we only lost to Richmond by 4 goals at the MCG too.
I think our development coach went over to coach the AFLW side this year, so there's been a bit of upheaval there.
As far as I am concerned we absolutely need a Director of Coaching (Mark Williams?) and a complete spill of all coaching staff at the club. I can see us being very aggressive at the trade table during the trading period, so we should have a high turnover of players, making this a good time to ensure that we have the right people in the right roles.
I am very concerned at Sandy's performances, but can put that down to the aforementioned injuries. It is obvious however that a lot of our players have not improved, and in many cases look to have gone backwards in their development. This could also reflect a lack of leadership at the club, which all starts at the top.

All I see is one draw and 5 losses. Please don't fall into the old Saints Coodabeen frame of mind.

[spert]

We have pushed most of the top 6 teams this year with little to no structure or game plan and a few injuries to players we couldn't afford to lose so the right development coaches may make all the difference.

Hawthorn 76-80
Richmond 57-111
West Coast 88-101
Melbourne 119-117
Collingwood 72-100
GWS draw earlier in the year

This needs to be bookmarked. And remember we only lost to Richmond by 4 goals at the MCG too.
I think our development coach went over to coach the AFLW side this year, so there's been a bit of upheaval there.
As far as I am concerned we absolutely need a Director of Coaching (Mark Williams?) and a complete spill of all coaching staff at the club. I can see us being very aggressive at the trade table during the trading period, so we should have a high turnover of players, making this a good time to ensure that we have the right people in the right roles.
I am very concerned at Sandy's performances, but can put that down to the aforementioned injuries. It is obvious however that a lot of our players have not improved, and in many cases look to have gone backwards in their development. This could also reflect a lack of leadership at the club, which all starts at the top.

All I see is one draw a win and 4 losses. Please don't fall into the old Saints Coodabeen frame of mind.

[spert]

We have pushed most of the top 6 teams this year with little to no structure or game plan and a few injuries to players we couldn't afford to lose so the right development coaches may make all the difference.

Hawthorn 76-80
Richmond 57-111
West Coast 88-101
Melbourne 119-117
Collingwood 72-100
GWS draw earlier in the year

This needs to be bookmarked. And remember we only lost to Richmond by 4 goals at the MCG too.
I think our development coach went over to coach the AFLW side this year, so there's been a bit of upheaval there.
As far as I am concerned we absolutely need a Director of Coaching (Mark Williams?) and a complete spill of all coaching staff at the club. I can see us being very aggressive at the trade table during the trading period, so we should have a high turnover of players, making this a good time to ensure that we have the right people in the right roles.
I am very concerned at Sandy's performances, but can put that down to the aforementioned injuries. It is obvious however that a lot of our players have not improved, and in many cases look to have gone backwards in their development. This could also reflect a lack of leadership at the club, which all starts at the top.

[SaintPav]

But I just can't see it.

Me either; he needs to moved on ASAP.

[spert]

We have pushed most of the top 6 teams this year with little to no structure or game plan and a few injuries to players we couldn't afford to lose so the right development coaches may make all the difference.

Hawthorn 76-80
Richmond 57-111
West Coast 88-101
Melbourne 119-117
Collingwood 72-100
GWS draw earlier in the year

This needs to be bookmarked. And remember we only lost to Richmond by 4 goals at the MCG too.
I think our development coach went over to coach the AFLW side this year, so there's been a bit of upheaval there.
As far as I am concerned we absolutely need a Director of Coaching (Mark Williams?) and a complete spill of all coaching staff at the club. I can see us being very aggressive at the trade table during the trading period, so we should have a high turnover of players, making this a good time to ensure that we have the right people in the right roles.
I am very concerned at Sandy's performances, but can put that down to the aforementioned injuries. It is obvious however that a lot of our players have not improved, and in many cases look to have gone backwards in their development. This could also reflect a lack of leadership at the club, which all starts at the top.

Don't fall into the old Saints coodabeen frame of mind. It doesn't mean much to get close or get beaten by a lot. More of those types of games have to be wins or else we make no progress.

[rodgerfox]

You see, you don't have to be perfect to be a great coach.

By great, I mean a premiership coach.


A coach either has a brilliant game plan, can inspire players to perform to their maximum every week or can communicate and teach players what they need to do.

A freak coach will bring all 3. But that's incredibly rare.

If a coach is elite in even one of those areas, if you can bring in people around them to cover off the other two - you can suddenly have a great coach on your hands.


The other reality is, that coaches that can't delegate to their assistants fail. So managing your team, as well as your players is a non-negotiable.



So I ask the question...What is Richardson elite at?

[Faulky63]

If a club sees something great about a coach, a trait or ability that they see as special in regards to coaching - why would you sack them?

Even if they have flaws, or weaknesses in other areas, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You harness the strengths, and work on the weaknesses.


Hardwick and Buckley clearly fell into this category.


Richardson? Well I'm not sure.

Hardwick coached his team to finals, and his players adore him. The club saw genuine strengths in him. And addressed the flaws and weaknesses.

Buckley coached his team to finals, is an incredible communicator and was building a group that idolise him.
Again, they saw strengths and addressed weaknesses.


I'm far from an ITK, so I'm purely speculating from the couch, but I just can't see any strengths in Richardson.

Our young players, including highly touted draftees, have not come on.
He can barely string two words together.
Our results have been deplorable.
Our style of play is pungent.
He's the opposite of inspirational to the fan base.

Collingwood and Richmond didn't just 'stick with the coach' and 'give them time' - they harnessed some existing high level strengths that they had, and addressed their flaws.

If I could see some high level, or even intermediate level strengths in Richardson, then I'd absolutely be advocating the same approach with him.


But I just can't see it.

Very well thought out and said.

[samuraisaint]

We have pushed most of the top 6 teams this year with little to no structure or game plan and a few injuries to players we couldn't afford to lose so the right development coaches may make all the difference.

Hawthorn 76-80
Richmond 57-111
West Coast 88-101
Melbourne 119-117
Collingwood 72-100
GWS draw earlier in the year

This needs to be bookmarked. And remember we only lost to Richmond by 4 goals at the MCG too.
I think our development coach went over to coach the AFLW side this year, so there's been a bit of upheaval there.
As far as I am concerned we absolutely need a Director of Coaching (Mark Williams?) and a complete spill of all coaching staff at the club. I can see us being very aggressive at the trade table during the trading period, so we should have a high turnover of players, making this a good time to ensure that we have the right people in the right roles.
I am very concerned at Sandy's performances, but can put that down to the aforementioned injuries. It is obvious however that a lot of our players have not improved, and in many cases look to have gone backwards in their development. This could also reflect a lack of leadership at the club, which all starts at the top.

All I see is one draw and 5 losses. Please don't fall into the old Saints Coodabeen frame of mind.

That's one draw, one win, and four losses - and one of those four losses we definitely should have , not could have, won (against the Hawks). I think any on here would also agree that our effort against West Coast was our best for a decade over there.
But I take your point; my main gripe is that a lot of the players who got senior game opportunities this year only got their chance because we ran out of players due to injuries. Freeman, Joyce, Austin, Goddard, White and definitely Pierce would not have played a senior game this year due to what I believe to be issues at the selection table. And this hinders player development.
Look, agreed that four wins is an appalling result in a 22 match season, especially when we play as many games as we do at largely neutral venues; Docklands and the MCG, but the only positive is that a lot of players got their chance this year to show what they can do. But again, it is more through luck than design that this happened.

[Scollop]

We have pushed most of the top 6 teams this year with little to no structure or game plan and a few injuries to players we couldn't afford to lose so the right development coaches may make all the difference.

Hawthorn 76-80
Richmond 57-111
West Coast 88-101
Melbourne 119-117
Collingwood 72-100
GWS draw earlier in the year

Our opponents in most of these games had their mind on the following week and were not really busting their guts against the Saints

It's common knowledge that when you don't come to play you just want to get through unscathed and don't play with the same intensity that you would against a side that is competing with you for top 4 or top 8 spots on the ladder

I still agree with the op however, and I think the head coach did the wrong thing when he publicly blamed the losses on a lack of skills or a lack of talented players.

[Cairnsman]

We have pushed most of the top 6 teams this year with little to no structure or game plan and a few injuries to players we couldn't afford to lose so the right development coaches may make all the difference.

Hawthorn 76-80
Richmond 57-111
West Coast 88-101
Melbourne 119-117
Collingwood 72-100
GWS draw earlier in the year

Our opponents in most of these games had their mind on the following week and were not really busting their guts against the Saints

It's common knowledge that when you don't come to play you just want to get through unscathed and don't play with the same intensity that you would against a side that is competing with you for top 4 or top 8 spots on the ladder

I still agree with the op however, and I think the head coach did the wrong thing when he publicly blamed the losses on a lack of skills or a lack of talented players.

I'm sorry Scollop I have to call you out, as best I know Richo did not publicly blame loses on a lack of skills or lack of talent. I've just done a Google search and I can't find any media reports to back up your claims. And when you think about it, had these claims been made by a head coach at AFL level there would be truck loads of media reports because it would have caused a sh1t storm and would have more than likely led to a fairly quick sacking.

There were statements made to the effect the list needs some high end talent added, and I think these are the statements that have been totally misconstrued and misinterpreted. Coaches and clubs frequently and publicly give frank accounts of list needs and wishes however this is a seismic difference to the connotation you're peddling.

Moreover there were players that went on the record to state the coach isn't to blame and that the blame laid with the players. That wouldn't have happened if the players didn't feel that way, and they certainly wouldn't have if there had been public blaming like you claim.

I stand to be corrected if you can provide some links to media reports.

[saintadamski]

I tend to think if we had the right coach, development coaches and a better culture, I think our players would be a lot better. I tend to think it's the players not getting the right development to get the best out of themselves, ie Billings, Mccartin when fit, Savage, Newans, Dunstan, Spencer, Acres and Bruce. If they were at a club like Hawthorn, Richmond, West Coast, Melbourne or Collingwood, they more than likely would be playing to their potential and be great players. Look at the pies tonight. Maynard, Maine, Cox, Langdon, Greenwood. Not household names but have great belief and development put into them by the right people. Great culture. St kilda don't have any of that. If so, I think we would be a much better side. Don't need champion players to be a great side. A champion team will always beat a team of champions. We just don't have the foundations to do so.

I'm going to keep it short and sweet because I'm so tired of repeating myself....

ABSOLUTE UTTER GARBAGE

Our list is bottom 4.
Good players like Gresham and Steele will get better no matter what.

BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD PLAYERS AND NOT GARBAGE LIKE NEWNES.

Change the list.... get rid of the mid tier junk....newnes, armitage, Weller, savage, hickey etc
Get rid of the inept coach .....wala!! Watch the magic happen !!

[Yorkeys]

From poor memory I believe Richos credo when he took over (is it really only 5 short years ago) was to get a team that is predominately relatively small but very fast and concentrate on forward pressure. His prototype was probably Weller Mk-Mav. I think Armo was asked to diet supermodel style to lose mass and hence run fast. Unfortunately as a result we recruited a lot of relatively small players who were comparatively slow - almost perfect, don't quibble. Those other 17 cunning teams recruited relatively large players that were fast and DID NOT FUMBLE A LOT. Development Coaches, here is your assignment if you chose to accept it - take a group of relatively small, relatively slow but high percentile fumblers and turn them into a forward pressure team. Game plan? For heavens sake haven't you been paying attention - with speed you don't need a plan the goals just flow. What could go wrong. Yes he has had 5 years and is still yuk yuk yuk-Gomer Pyle-ing along - what unmitigated crap from a "Professional" Club.

[rodgerfox]

I'm going to keep it short and sweet because I'm so tired of repeating myself....

ABSOLUTE UTTER GARBAGE

Our list is bottom 4.
Good players like Gresham and Steele will get better no matter what.

BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD PLAYERS AND NOT GARBAGE LIKE NEWNES.

Change the list.... get rid of the mid tier junk....newnes, armitage, Weller, savage, hickey etc
Get rid of the inept coach .....wala!! Watch the magic happen !!

Are players like Steele and Gresham as good as they could be?

I think they're underachieving.

[freely]

You see, you don't have to be perfect to be a great coach.

By great, I mean a premiership coach.


A coach either has a brilliant game plan, can inspire players to perform to their maximum every week or can communicate and teach players what they need to do.

A freak coach will bring all 3. But that's incredibly rare.

If a coach is elite in even one of those areas, if you can bring in people around them to cover off the other two - you can suddenly have a great coach on your hands.


The other reality is, that coaches that can't delegate to their assistants fail. So managing your team, as well as your players is a non-negotiable.



So I ask the question...What is Richardson elite at?

well - taking the optimistic view, maybe Richardson is elite at delegating to his assistants, so having upgraded the assistants....

[rodgerfox]

You see, you don't have to be perfect to be a great coach.

By great, I mean a premiership coach.


A coach either has a brilliant game plan, can inspire players to perform to their maximum every week or can communicate and teach players what they need to do.

A freak coach will bring all 3. But that's incredibly rare.

If a coach is elite in even one of those areas, if you can bring in people around them to cover off the other two - you can suddenly have a great coach on your hands.


The other reality is, that coaches that can't delegate to their assistants fail. So managing your team, as well as your players is a non-negotiable.



So I ask the question...What is Richardson elite at?

well - taking the optimistic view, maybe Richardson is elite at delegating to his assistants, so having upgraded the assistants....

Fingers crossed.

[Barneysaint]

Bottom line is richo needs to go. He can't get the best out of his players. They don't want to play for him. You can see it. Keeping him will make us more in debt as many members won't sign. If 5000 members don't sign, that's over a million dollars in lost revenue which is a lot more than richo wage. Our development coaches were useless. Absolutely useless and also trout recruiting has been woeful. We haven't had one A grade draft in 7 years. Not one.