To the Board and CEO: Do YOUR Job and Sack Richo or RESIGN!!

[Saintmatt]

I'm curious, which current or past players have claimed Richo isn't up to the job?

Are there quotes in the media you can provide links to?

Check out Dean Greig on Facebook. That’ll be your answer. He’s at least being public.

Many others are saying the same thing but privately.

[desertsaint]

commented on yourexamples. basically we have some decent p,ayers there that would likely be doing far better under a better coach

The list is a result of incredibly bad recruitment for almost a decade!

I understand everyone blaming Richo - and to a degree you can, but to not acknowledge how f****** POOR this list is, is simply blind.

Start with this:
Newnes - delist/trade - depth, but fair enough criticism
Weller - delist/trade - yep
Sinclair - delist/trade - was elite as a wingman, played out of position this year and gone backwards
Hickey - delist/trade - gone very far backwards. fair enough
Longer - delist/trade - yep
McCartin - delist/trade - injury plagued, fair enough
Dunstan - delist/trade - injury plagued and just thrown into hard roles for first two years when not fully fit. yet been our best or close to in many, many games. faded badly in latter half of season. we have done a luke ball to him.
Geary - delist/trade - experienced & hard working backman, certainly worth a place
Lonie - delist/trade - might be hitting some form.

etc etc etc...THEN THE COACH

so much of that list has had stalled player development. not their fault and most would be better players but for the handicap of coming to the saints under this regime,

[skeptic]

commented on yourexamples. basically we have some decent p,ayers there that would likely be doing far better under a better coach

The list is a result of incredibly bad recruitment for almost a decade!

I understand everyone blaming Richo - and to a degree you can, but to not acknowledge how f****** POOR this list is, is simply blind.

Start with this:
Newnes - delist/trade - depth, but fair enough criticism
Weller - delist/trade - yep
Sinclair - delist/trade - was elite as a wingman, played out of position this year and gone backwards
Hickey - delist/trade - gone very far backwards. fair enough
Longer - delist/trade - yep
McCartin - delist/trade - injury plagued, fair enough
Dunstan - delist/trade - injury plagued and just thrown into hard roles for first two years when not fully fit. yet been our best or close to in many, many games. faded badly in latter half of season. we have done a luke ball to him.
Geary - delist/trade - experienced & hard working backman, certainly worth a place
Lonie - delist/trade - might be hitting some form.

etc etc etc...THEN THE COACH

so much of that list has had stalled player development. not their fault and most would be better players but for the handicap of coming to the saints under this regime,

BINGO.

Look at that list...
Newnes was looking like a potential A-Grader at one point
Weller for me was top 5 in 2016 and Hickey’s form demonstrated that he was the ruck we’d all be holding out for
Stats showed SInclair was an elite player
Dunstan was the best early mid pick we had in years and we thought he was destined to be a future captain
Paddy looked promising early and was a decent kick and mark who had injury concerns
Lonie started like a house on fire

Then you have Savage, Billings, Bruce, Steel, Acres, Membrey, Webster who pretty much all looked better then they do now though Webster and Steel are coming on.

The issue to me is that for the last 2 seasons the coaching has been baffling more often than it hasn’t, there have been as lot of non-sense all decisions and player’s form has seriously dropped off.

On top of that, morale has plummeted...

Just so we’re clear on this point... under GT who is widely considered a terrible match day coach, even during the period of time with the public spat with Butters, there was NEVER any suggestion that the majority of the club as a whole didn’t buy into his game/message.

[Sainternist]

We probably won't know until after the GF. I heard Richo on SEN last night and you wouldn't have thought butter would melt in his mouth. Didn't in the least sound like a guy with his neck on the chopping block. Geez, who can tell how the coaching situation will unfold!

[SydneySainter]

It’s no surprise as to why Finnis is desperately rallying behind Richo and as to why he pretty much blames the club’s plight on everything other than Richo - if Richo goes down, then so does he!

Finnis has been a key administrator in the club’s demise - a failed rebuild, $12 million in debt, zero interest from rival players and to top it off, he was part of the brains trust that needlessly extended Richo’s contract when he still had a year remaining, had just taken the club to 11th when the expectation was finals and was far from an indemand coach on any rivals radar.

He already looks like a big enough turkey as it is, so to sack Richo before this pointless extension even begins and therefore adding even more bad debt to the balance sheet is pretty much admitting that his tenure as CEO has been a fail.

That’s why, as far as Finnis and his supporters are concerned, it’s not Richo’s fault - it’s his assistants, it’s the recruitment, it’s the fact that Acres and Billings haven’t become stars yet, etc. Don’t get me wrong, probably all contributing factors in reality, but how can Richo as senior coach be blameless in this debacle? Obviously Finnis thought Richo was valuable enough to offer a contract extension. Even after just finishing 16th, this mess is still apparently out of Richo’s hands. If he’s so unaccountable, then what is it that he does that makes it so important that he stays on the payroll?

Finnis will continue towing this line as long as the club is contractually handcuffed to Richo.

[Cairnsman]

I'm curious, which current or past players have claimed Richo isn't up to the job?

Are there quotes in the media you can provide links to?

Check out Dean Greig on Facebook. That’ll be your answer. He’s at least being public.

Many others are saying the same thing but privately.

I would assert that by past players it is meant players that have played under Richo, Dean Greig's comments lack credibility and only serve to validate people's negative mindset towards Richo.

Private comments by anyone not associated with the club in an official capacity also fail to provide credible insight into the state of the situation.

[takeaway]

It’s no surprise as to why Finnis is desperately rallying behind Richo and as to why he pretty much blames the club’s plight on everything other than Richo - if Richo goes down, then so does he!

Finnis has been a key administrator in the club’s demise - a failed rebuild, $12 million in debt, zero interest from rival players and to top it off, he was part of the brains trust that needlessly extended Richo’s contract when he still had a year remaining, had just taken the club to 11th when the expectation was finals and was far from an indemand coach on any rivals radar.

He already looks like a big enough turkey as it is, so to sack Richo before this pointless extension even begins and therefore adding even more bad debt to the balance sheet is pretty much admitting that his tenure as CEO has been a fail.

That’s why, as far as Finnis and his supporters are concerned, it’s not Richo’s fault - it’s his assistants, it’s the recruitment, it’s the fact that Acres and Billings haven’t become stars yet, etc. Don’t get me wrong, probably all contributing factors in reality, but how can Richo as senior coach be blameless in this debacle? Obviously Finnis thought Richo was valuable enough to offer a contract extension. Even after just finishing 16th, this mess is still apparently out of Richo’s hands. If he’s so unaccountable, then what is it that he does that makes it so important that he stays on the payroll?

Finnis will continue towing this line as long as the club is contractually handcuffed to Richo.

Interesting perceptions. How much truth there is to them, who knows? Finnis was instrumental in getting us back to Moorabbin where the real benefits have not yet had a chance to kick in. I recall a report prior to Richo's extension that the Pies were interested in him, when Buckley was looking shaky. Cannot verify it though.

As for your other thoughts on Finnis, I think I'll take them with a grain of salt.

[st.byron]

If by nearly beating Hawthorn makes Richo as relevant as Clarko, then doesn't that make our recruiting and list equally as relevant? After all Hawthorn had injuries / retirements as well

Ghost Like’s view is much more balanced. Samoht, you continue to bang on about recruiting as though that’s the sole cause of our woes. It’s a pretty myopic view. Still can’t understand you not giving weight to coaching and development. The logical conclusion of your argument is that coaching is irrelevant and everything depends on the quality of players recruited. After that their performance is a given, depending on ability and coaching has nothing to do with it. Very strange argument to suggest Clarkson would have done no better than Richo. That would be a four time premiership coach.

[HardSaint]

Even if we had a handful of A grade elite talent I reckon that Richo would still be underperforming. Don't forget that HE and THIS board thought that this playing group were top 8 and even worthy of top 4 in 2018. Even if you gave Richo the reins at Melbourne or Collingwood or West Coast or GWS he would still stuff things up. It's quite simple. Richo doesn't inspire people.

Fancy comparing one of the modern games most accomplished coaches who created a unique gameplan that ultimately won him the 2008 flag ( when no one expected them to plus he went on to win 3 premierships in a row ) with a guy who has one of the worst win loss ratios of any coach in the history of VFL/AFL. Clarko was able to keep on top of the competition and he modified his gameplans with his ability to be innovative and - most importantly - to get the best out of his team and extract maximum effort on a consistent basis

Last year when Clarko saw that his usual tried and true methods were not working he resorted to good old fashioned 'punishing' of his players. A lot of the playing group and especially the leaders at Hawthorn have spoken over the years about how tough and demanding Clarko is. He leans on the captain and the leadership group and he sprays them intensely and he does it often. This sets the tone for how everyone is so demanding of each other at that club and it starts from the top. In 2017 Clarko knew that his usual tactic of ranting and raving had to be stepped up and what better way to do it than to physically challenge the players and put them through the most uncomfortable and harsh punishment. It was extreme and it emphasised that he was not going to sit idly by and accept the poor efforts on the field and perhaps the poor effort on the training track. Do people remember what he did? Do you remember the term 'schnitzelled'? Clarko went on Foxfooty and admitted that he had done it.

Talent alone does not win you flags. It doesn't matter if you have more A graders than another team. It's how you play as a team and how you play to your strengths while attempting to nullify and reduce the opposition's strengths. Richo has been unable to innovate and maintain an advantage against our opponents. Richo has failed to be the leader that is required who drives a winning culure. The flashes of brilliance and the wins against some of the top 8 teams shows that we have enough talent in the team.

The problem is that the head coach has not been able to create an environment where we have the tools and the gameplan to consistently win and he has failed to maintain our desire and he has failed to motivate each and every individual within the playing group. It's quite simple. Richo isn't tough enough on the players. He is poor at tactics, team selection and having a varying gameplan and I think he has gone past his use by date with most of the current playing group.

Richo has shown through some of our most important marquee games on a Friday or Saturday this year that he isn't up to the job. Changing assistant coaches and making some changes to the playing group will not change the fact that Richo is not up to the job

WORD!!!

Hammer Nail Head

[saintadamski]

Even if we had a handful of A grade elite talent I reckon that Richo would still be underperforming. Don't forget that HE and THIS board thought that this playing group were top 8 and even worthy of top 4 in 2018. Even if you gave Richo the reins at Melbourne or Collingwood or West Coast or GWS he would still stuff things up. It's quite simple. Richo doesn't inspire people.

Fancy comparing one of the modern games most accomplished coaches who created a unique gameplan that ultimately won him the 2008 flag ( when no one expected them to plus he went on to win 3 premierships in a row ) with a guy who has one of the worst win loss ratios of any coach in the history of VFL/AFL. Clarko was able to keep on top of the competition and he modified his gameplans with his ability to be innovative and - most importantly - to get the best out of his team and extract maximum effort on a consistent basis

Last year when Clarko saw that his usual tried and true methods were not working he resorted to good old fashioned 'punishing' of his players. A lot of the playing group and especially the leaders at Hawthorn have spoken over the years about how tough and demanding Clarko is. He leans on the captain and the leadership group and he sprays them intensely and he does it often. This sets the tone for how everyone is so demanding of each other at that club and it starts from the top. In 2017 Clarko knew that his usual tactic of ranting and raving had to be stepped up and what better way to do it than to physically challenge the players and put them through the most uncomfortable and harsh punishment. It was extreme and it emphasised that he was not going to sit idly by and accept the poor efforts on the field and perhaps the poor effort on the training track. Do people remember what he did? Do you remember the term 'schnitzelled'? Clarko went on Foxfooty and admitted that he had done it.

Talent alone does not win you flags. It doesn't matter if you have more A graders than another team. It's how you play as a team and how you play to your strengths while attempting to nullify and reduce the opposition's strengths. Richo has been unable to innovate and maintain an advantage against our opponents. Richo has failed to be the leader that is required who drives a winning culure. The flashes of brilliance and the wins against some of the top 8 teams shows that we have enough talent in the team.

The problem is that the head coach has not been able to create an environment where we have the tools and the gameplan to consistently win and he has failed to maintain our desire and he has failed to motivate each and every individual within the playing group. It's quite simple. Richo isn't tough enough on the players. He is poor at tactics, team selection and having a varying gameplan and I think he has gone past his use by date with most of the current playing group.

Richo has shown through some of our most important marquee games on a Friday or Saturday this year that he isn't up to the job. Changing assistant coaches and making some changes to the playing group will not change the fact that Richo is not up to the job

WORD!!!

Hammer Nail Head

It actually REALLY DOES MATTER if you have more A graders than another side.
Hawthorn 2013, 2014, 2015 - easily more A graders
Geelong 2007, 2009, 2011 - easily more A graders
Brisbane 2001, 2002, 2003 - easily more A graders

Also West Coast and Sydney

Yes I agree that Richo is a rubbish coach....but to constantly blame the coach for the entire mess, rather than the obvious awful list we have is incredibly delusional.
Newnes, Weller, Geary, Sinclair, Savage, Hickey, Longer, Lonie, Dunstan, Brown, McKenzie, Billings

You are saying that with a different coach, the above names will win a flag? you MUST be joking!

Hammer Thumb OUCH!

[saintadamski]

commented on yourexamples. basically we have some decent p,ayers there that would likely be doing far better under a better coach

The list is a result of incredibly bad recruitment for almost a decade!

I understand everyone blaming Richo - and to a degree you can, but to not acknowledge how f****** POOR this list is, is simply blind.

Start with this:
Newnes - delist/trade - depth, but fair enough criticism
Weller - delist/trade - yep
Sinclair - delist/trade - was elite as a wingman, played out of position this year and gone backwards
Hickey - delist/trade - gone very far backwards. fair enough
Longer - delist/trade - yep
McCartin - delist/trade - injury plagued, fair enough
Dunstan - delist/trade - injury plagued and just thrown into hard roles for first two years when not fully fit. yet been our best or close to in many, many games. faded badly in latter half of season. we have done a luke ball to him.
Geary - delist/trade - experienced & hard working backman, certainly worth a place
Lonie - delist/trade - might be hitting some form.

etc etc etc...THEN THE COACH

so much of that list has had stalled player development. not their fault and most would be better players but for the handicap of coming to the saints under this regime,

BINGO.

Look at that list...
Newnes was looking like a potential A-Grader at one point
Weller for me was top 5 in 2016 and Hickey’s form demonstrated that he was the ruck we’d all be holding out for
Stats showed SInclair was an elite player
Dunstan was the best early mid pick we had in years and we thought he was destined to be a future captain
Paddy looked promising early and was a decent kick and mark who had injury concerns
Lonie started like a house on fire

Then you have Savage, Billings, Bruce, Steel, Acres, Membrey, Webster who pretty much all looked better then they do now though Webster and Steel are coming on.

The issue to me is that for the last 2 seasons the coaching has been baffling more often than it hasn’t, there have been as lot of non-sense all decisions and player’s form has seriously dropped off.

On top of that, morale has plummeted...

Just so we’re clear on this point... under GT who is widely considered a terrible match day coach, even during the period of time with the public spat with Butters, there was NEVER any suggestion that the majority of the club as a whole didn’t buy into his game/message.

Newnes a potential A grader?!!... LMFAO
Sinclair an elite player ... LMFAO!!!! forget the stats - just watch him
Weller....hahahahahaha
Paddy looked promising?!?!?! he couldn't take a mark!
Lonie ....

Look you are wearing red white and black goggles....and my hat goes off to you for that ...you are loyal.
But just for a minute pretend that all the players you have mentioned are wearing other club's jumpers ....you wouldn't be singing their praises believe me

List cleanout, and coach sacking required.

Then we can rebuild properly....bring on round 6 of 2019!!! hopefully it'll happen by then

[skeptic]

commented on yourexamples. basically we have some decent p,ayers there that would likely be doing far better under a better coach

The list is a result of incredibly bad recruitment for almost a decade!

I understand everyone blaming Richo - and to a degree you can, but to not acknowledge how f****** POOR this list is, is simply blind.

Start with this:
Newnes - delist/trade - depth, but fair enough criticism
Weller - delist/trade - yep
Sinclair - delist/trade - was elite as a wingman, played out of position this year and gone backwards
Hickey - delist/trade - gone very far backwards. fair enough
Longer - delist/trade - yep
McCartin - delist/trade - injury plagued, fair enough
Dunstan - delist/trade - injury plagued and just thrown into hard roles for first two years when not fully fit. yet been our best or close to in many, many games. faded badly in latter half of season. we have done a luke ball to him.
Geary - delist/trade - experienced & hard working backman, certainly worth a place
Lonie - delist/trade - might be hitting some form.

etc etc etc...THEN THE COACH

so much of that list has had stalled player development. not their fault and most would be better players but for the handicap of coming to the saints under this regime,

BINGO.

Look at that list...
Newnes was looking like a potential A-Grader at one point
Weller for me was top 5 in 2016 and Hickey’s form demonstrated that he was the ruck we’d all be holding out for
Stats showed SInclair was an elite player
Dunstan was the best early mid pick we had in years and we thought he was destined to be a future captain
Paddy looked promising early and was a decent kick and mark who had injury concerns
Lonie started like a house on fire

Then you have Savage, Billings, Bruce, Steel, Acres, Membrey, Webster who pretty much all looked better then they do now though Webster and Steel are coming on.

The issue to me is that for the last 2 seasons the coaching has been baffling more often than it hasn’t, there have been as lot of non-sense all decisions and player’s form has seriously dropped off.

On top of that, morale has plummeted...

Just so we’re clear on this point... under GT who is widely considered a terrible match day coach, even during the period of time with the public spat with Butters, there was NEVER any suggestion that the majority of the club as a whole didn’t buy into his game/message.

Newnes a potential A grader?!!... LMFAO
Sinclair an elite player ... LMFAO!!!! forget the stats - just watch him
Weller....hahahahahaha
Paddy looked promising?!?!?! he couldn't take a mark!
Lonie ....

Look you are wearing red white and black goggles....and my hat goes off to you for that ...you are loyal.
But just for a minute pretend that all the players you have mentioned are wearing other club's jumpers ....you wouldn't be singing their praises believe me

List cleanout, and coach sacking required.

Then we can rebuild properly....bring on round 6 of 2019!!! hopefully it'll happen by then

Just so we’re clear... these aren’t my opinions per’se. This was a sense shared by many on this website.

FWIW I never got the hype with Newnes, thought Sincs was a decent B-Grader, disliked Weller until 2016 and fell off the bandwagon quickly, always thought Lonie was worth persevering with and have been in 2 minds about Paddy

[SydneySainter]

It’s no surprise as to why Finnis is desperately rallying behind Richo and as to why he pretty much blames the club’s plight on everything other than Richo - if Richo goes down, then so does he!

Finnis has been a key administrator in the club’s demise - a failed rebuild, $12 million in debt, zero interest from rival players and to top it off, he was part of the brains trust that needlessly extended Richo’s contract when he still had a year remaining, had just taken the club to 11th when the expectation was finals and was far from an indemand coach on any rivals radar.

He already looks like a big enough turkey as it is, so to sack Richo before this pointless extension even begins and therefore adding even more bad debt to the balance sheet is pretty much admitting that his tenure as CEO has been a fail.

That’s why, as far as Finnis and his supporters are concerned, it’s not Richo’s fault - it’s his assistants, it’s the recruitment, it’s the fact that Acres and Billings haven’t become stars yet, etc. Don’t get me wrong, probably all contributing factors in reality, but how can Richo as senior coach be blameless in this debacle? Obviously Finnis thought Richo was valuable enough to offer a contract extension. Even after just finishing 16th, this mess is still apparently out of Richo’s hands. If he’s so unaccountable, then what is it that he does that makes it so important that he stays on the payroll?

Finnis will continue towing this line as long as the club is contractually handcuffed to Richo.

Interesting perceptions. How much truth there is to them, who knows? Finnis was instrumental in getting us back to Moorabbin where the real benefits have not yet had a chance to kick in. I recall a report prior to Richo's extension that the Pies were interested in him, when Buckley was looking shaky. Cannot verify it though.

As for your other thoughts on Finnis, I think I'll take them with a grain of salt.

Exactly. It is only my opinion, I hope I'm wrong and that Finnis is earning his executive salary and knows what he's doing for the greater good of the club and knows for a fact that Richo is the man for job, rather than just trying to save face.

As for this much vaunted move back to Moorabbin, despite it being well documented how much the playing group hated the commute to Seaford, the alleged cushier confines of Moorabbin hasn't aided in the further development or performance of the playing list - the likes of Billings, Acres and even Ross have only gone backwards, it's only further added to this debt in which the club is seemingly no where near being able to start paying back and despite Finnis himself declaring this as one of the factors that now makes us a "destination club", all elite talent still keep giving us the finger. Maybe your right and in the long term benefits will eventually unfold, or maybe the club has only cut off its nose to spite its face.

If there is any truth in the Pies showing interest in Richo, I sincerely hope that it had no weight what-so-ever in re-signing Richo. The expectation was finals, but we'd just finished 11th and despite our big wins over the Giants and Tigers, our frequent capitulation by 50 point margins were becoming an alarmingly common occurrence and he was still contracted for one more season, so there was no need to extend his contract. To trigger a needless extension when the jury was still out but the Pies had a bit of interest is again, just shooting yourself in the foot.

[Ghost Like]

FWIW, Finnis is busy contacting members who have sent disgruntled messages cancelling their and their family's memberships. He's currently working member retention.

[samoht]

A lot of unsubstantiated stuff being posted in this forum - and misdirected energy. It's all the coach's fault - yeah, sure.

We are near the bottom of the rung, because of the way we've recruited over the last 10 or so years. We don't have even one A grader with elite skills, whose skills hold up under pressure - and we've had more than our share of injuries this year.

Clarko wouldn't have got us any higher - in fact we nearly rolled his team, despite our injuries and the star-studded Hawk lineup with several A graders.

Clarko, schmarko - where would he be without his recruiters?

We need some perspective. We need to improve our recruiting - 5 C grade ruckmen do not make an A grade ruckman, and 5 inside midfielders with average skills, do not make an A grade midfielder.
It's an uneven playing field - because of our poor recruiting. This is the area we need to improve in.

Please outline the COACHING reasons you are observing as to why Alan Richardson should stay?

Yes have heard you bleat about recruitment but just interested in your views as to why he now must remain and what’s he doing well out of the box?

I bleat for some perspective. I don't care one way or the other who our coach is, and I've said Richo has his faults - but that's not our biggest issue.
I'm just pointing out that the biggest problem we have (and have had over the years) isn't/wasn't the coach (after all, we've replaced one after the other and where has it got us?), it's been our scattergun approach to recruiting over the last 10-12 years . There's also been some other factors at play this year (injuries, harder draw etc..).

The coach is not the panacea, and will never be that.

We need to recognise what our biggest problem area is and has been over the years - and that is scattergun recruiting. We need to finally sort this area out.
I mean Hardwick and Buckley have become "great" coaches on the back of targeted and smart recruiting. This is the area above all that we need to get right, and the coach (whoever that may be) will only ever be the cherry/chump on top. We are attaching too much importance to the coach - they are a dime a dozen, but good recruiters are as rare as hen's teeth, especially at St Kilda.

[SaintPav]

Dear Richo,

Please f*** off.

Regards

Pav

[Teflon]

A lot of unsubstantiated stuff being posted in this forum - and misdirected energy. It's all the coach's fault - yeah, sure.

We are near the bottom of the rung, because of the way we've recruited over the last 10 or so years. We don't have even one A grader with elite skills, whose skills hold up under pressure - and we've had more than our share of injuries this year.

Clarko wouldn't have got us any higher - in fact we nearly rolled his team, despite our injuries and the star-studded Hawk lineup with several A graders.

Clarko, schmarko - where would he be without his recruiters?

We need some perspective. We need to improve our recruiting - 5 C grade ruckmen do not make an A grade ruckman, and 5 inside midfielders with average skills, do not make an A grade midfielder.
It's an uneven playing field - because of our poor recruiting. This is the area we need to improve in.

Please outline the COACHING reasons you are observing as to why Alan Richardson should stay?

Yes have heard you bleat about recruitment but just interested in your views as to why he now must remain and what’s he doing well out of the box?

I bleat for some perspective. I don't care one way or the other who our coach is, and I've said Richo has his faults - but that's not our biggest issue.
I'm just pointing out that the biggest problem we have (and have had over the years) isn't/wasn't the coach (after all, we've replaced one after the other and where has it got us?), it's been our scattergun approach to recruiting over the last 10-12 years . There's also been some other factors at play this year (injuries, harder draw etc..).

The coach is not the panacea, and will never be that.

We need to recognise what our biggest problem area is and has been over the years - and that is recruiting.
I mean Hardwick and Buckley have become "great" coaches on the back of targeted and smart recruiting. This is the area above all that we need to get right, and the coach (whoever that may be) will only ever be the cherry/chump on top. We are attaching too much importance to the coach - they are a dime a dozen, but good recruiters are as rare as hen's teeth, especially at St Kilda.

You completely ignored the question
Why should we keep Alan then under your logic? I mean....using your logic the coach adds nothing right?
But that too is simplistic
As others noted - take a look at the system Ross Lyon injected (ahead of his time then) into St Kilda in 2009?? EVERY player bought in, even “moneyball” types such as Eddy and Mcqualter played a role - we won 19 straight. Was that cause we just recruited well??? OR
Did we have capable players (no doubt) that were supported by a coach who tactically “got it” and was able to get them, week in week out, to play a style??
Ofcourse we lost GFs....but I’d argue we came up against sides that:
1. Had quality players BUT
2. Were equally coached to play a consistent, systematic brand of footy that simply proved superior in the end.
This is why coaching IS critical and not just “cherry on top” as you suggest.
I’d argue last night we saw a subtle change in coaching systems.....Clarkson and Hawks have a clear focus on moving the footy with control, precision, short lead up kick delivered with skill. This system has served them well for years.
Interestingly Hardwick and Richmond’s “manic move it forward” model (that also has adequate skill) baffles the Hawks and put their defence under enormous pressure (I actually think we did similar to Hawks and they don’t like this style). Point is this systematic style of play has been engrained into Tiger players via good coaching - and it also demonstrates how styles evolve.
No one questions the need to recruit well - it’s a given. But to downplay the importance of a senior coach who can get his team to buy into a clever system of play week in week out is just stupid.
I’m still waiting for you to tell me after 5 years what Alan’s virtues are in instilling that consistent style (what is our style?) into our playing group????
Not surprised to hear players wanting out...,they have a limited shelf life in footy .....why would you waste those years with a coach who isn’t teaching you a thing?

[samoht]

Get rid of Richo, if that's the wise decision. Coaches come and go, especially at St Kilda. I don't care one iota about who our coach is.

But - let's not lose sight of the fact - that it's our scattergun recruiting that needs to change most of all- where we're recruiting C grade ruckmen after C grade ruckmen, inside midfileder after inside midfileder with average kicking skills, half back flanker after half back flanker. We've not trageted quality and we've not recruited what our team lacks and needs - rather doubled up and tripled up on what we don't need.

I'm not blaming the players that have been recruited, it's not their fault - but our recruiters have made a shemozzle out of their recruiting.

So, whoever ends up coaching us, will not have an even playing field. They will be starting behind the 8 ball - and they will be hoping that our recruiting will markedly improve in the future.

Hardwick and Buckley - the way things have turned around for them - are living proof of the importance of smart and targeted recruiting. They were both heading out the door, and they have their recruiters
to thank for their change of fortune.

I contend that we therefore need to improve our recruiting - in case you're wondering what I've been bleating about all this time.

[Teflon]

Get rid of Richo, if that's the wise decision. Coaches come and go, especially at St Kilda. I don't care one iota about who our coach is.

But it's our scattergun recruiting that needs to change most of all- where we're recruiting C grade ruckmen after C grade ruckmen, inside midfileder after inside midfileder with average kicking skills, half back flanker after half back flanker. We've not trageted quality and we've not recruited what our team lacks and needs - rather doubled up and tripled up on what we don't need.

I'm not blaming the players that have been recruited, it's not their fault - but our recruiters have made a shemozzle out of their recruiting.

So, whoever ends up coaching us, will not have an even playing field. They will be starting behind the 8 ball - and they will be hoping that our recruiting will markedly improve in the future.

Hardwick and Buckley - the way things have turned around for them - are living proof of the importance of smart and targeted improving. They were both heading out the door, and they have their recruiters
to thank for their change of fortune.

This from Bigfooty sums it up better than I could.

****************€€*


I dont think anyone things Kane Lambert is a champion player. He just plays in a great system which allows a lot of super average players to look like stars. Where before that system was implemented, a lot of those players just looked average.

Richmond are a great example that modern football is more about the game plan than the talent on the list. Yes, they have some stars in their team but the majority of their best 22 would look ordinary playing for most other clubs. They show that if any club can get a good system in the coaching box that actually highlights their players strengths, then they can be competitive in every game.

[samoht]

Quoting bigfooty isn't adding any credibility ...

What sums up (best of all) the importance of targeted and smart recruiting - over what our recruiters have been dishing up (scattergun crap) - is the change in fortune of both Buckley and Hardwick.
They'd be out the door, if not for their recruiters. They were certainly heading that way (out), and were not rated as coaches.

Coaches are ships that pass in the night, but one constant that is needed for a team's longterm and sustained success - is smart and targeted recruiting. You stray into scattergun recruiting, and you end up like St Kilda.
Other teams have sustained their success, we haven't.

Richmond targeted and recruited some quality players - that complemented the core of talent they already had - you can't compare their list with ours.

Game plans work when you have a strong and complete list. Hardwick finally has that now, so it now appears he has the superior game plan, when what he has in reality is a stronger and more complete list (thanks to his recruiters), which now has the abilty to carry out whatever game plan. Hardwick might have had a good game plan all along, but didn't have the talented list and complete list to carry it out - until recently.

[saintadamski]

Quoting bigfooty isn't adding any credibility ...

What sums up best of all the importance of targeted and smart recruiting - over what our recruiters have been dishing up (scattergun crap) - is the change in fortune of both Buckley and Hardwick.
They'd be out the door, if not for their recruiters. They were certainly heading that way (out), and were not rated as coaches.

Coaches are ships that pass in the night, but one constant that is needed for a team's longterm and sustained success - is smart and targeted recruiting. You stray into scattergun recruiting, and you end up like St Kilda.
Other teams have sustained their success, we haven't.

Richmond targeted and recruited some quality players - that complemented the core of talent they already had - you can't compare their list with ours.

Game plans work when you have a strong and complete list. Hardwick finally has that now, so it now appears he has the superior game plan, when what he has in reality is a stronger and more complete list (thanks to his recruiters), which now has the abilty to carry out whatever game plan. Hardwick might have had a good game plan all along, but didn't have the talented list and complete list to carry it out - until recently.

TOTALLY AGREE!
I couldn't have said it better myself.

It's funny how everyone thinks Hardwick and Buckley are amazing coaches all of a sudden, when only recently they were almost out the door.

Their recruiters targeted strong role players, with pace.

If Hardwick was coaching our current list, everyone would think he was a spud all over again!

[Scollop]

For people to suggest that coaching does not make a difference totally ignores the evidence from elite sportspeople themselves. It indicates to me that people are speculating based on theory and guesswork rather than any hands on knowledge.

If anyone here has been involved in elite sport or been a proffessional sportsperson I'd love to hear their views.

The Tigers always thought that Hardwick had strengths as a coach, but he also had some areas that needed improvement. With the addition of Caracella and Lepper and probably the influence of a guy like Neil Balme, the coaching 'team' at Richmond helped get the best out of a very talented list.

We are currently not getting the best out of the talented list that we have. Doesn't mean we have the talent to win a flag, but perhaps some on here are not rating all the players fairly imo. I don't see strengths in Richo. I'd love to hear what his strengths are

I've seen it first hand in junior tennis and in junior football. A good coach versus an ordinary coach is usually the difference between underperforming and getting the best out of an athletes strengths. It can essentially be the difference between winning and losing on a consistent basis. This is true for individuals and even more so for team sports imo.

[Scollop]

Double posts

[Scollop]

It actually REALLY DOES MATTER if you have more A graders than another side.
Hawthorn 2013, 2014, 2015 - easily more A graders
Geelong 2007, 2009, 2011 - easily more A graders
Brisbane 2001, 2002, 2003 - easily more A graders

Also West Coast and Sydney

Yes I agree that Richo is a rubbish coach....but to constantly blame the coach for the entire mess, rather than the obvious awful list we have is incredibly delusional.
Newnes, Weller, Geary, Sinclair, Savage, Hickey, Longer, Lonie, Dunstan, Brown, McKenzie, Billings

You are saying that with a different coach, the above names will win a flag? you MUST be joking!

Hammer Thumb OUCH!

No. I never said the current Saints playing list is worthy of winning a flag. Don't make things up or put words into my mouth

What I'm saying is that when your team finishes 16th you expect the football club to do a full review and rate each and every player and administrator and assistant coach and the Head Coach, and to rate their strengths and perhaps assess whether they are doing their job competently and whether they have had enough time to achieve their KPI's.

I have seen that we have done that for players and some assistants BUT the club has conveniently forgotten to do this for some of the administarators and the Head Coach.

The Head Coach and the CEO and the whole board need to be replaced. They are the ones responsible for employing the assistant coaches, the footy department staff, the recruitment staff, and everyone else who gets paid to build a winning culture including the players

In short: The team which has been under the tutelage of Richo for the last 5 years and was supposed to ripe for a finals berth is now seriously needing another rebuild. ALL media and non-associated commentators have clearly judged that the Saints have horrendously underperformed in 2018.

[samoht]

scollop, what you say holds true too.
Yes, coaches need to get the best out of the players they have.

But, I'd go further than that - the players also need to get the best out of themselves - just as Steele did.
Take some ownership, themselves.
Is Steele going to let the coach, any coach, the ceo or anyone hold him back - hell no. That's why you admire him as a player.

and - the recruiters also need to get the best out of themselves - don't they ?
Anyway, ours haven't. They have been recruiting without a plan, and with a scattergun approach.

What I'm saying isn't negating what you're saying, and vice versa.
I'm looking beyond just the coach - and what I see is that in all cases, it's smart recruiting that brings about sustained success - what separates the Geelongs, Hawks, etc..
The list needs a rebuild, not so much because of Richo, but because of our poor recruiting.