The coach has lost the players

[sunsaint]

Te coach has obviously NOT lost the players!

Chris Judd agrees, in an article in the Age today. Makes some good points about how Football clubs work and the approach taken by the Saints, ie Lethlean.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/not ... 4zymr.html

Good article.

How
HOW is it a good article Sanyta?
(I would think it the first time you have agreed with anything to come out of a "cheating carlsum" associate in your life)

Basically the point of the article is that its tough on players with a coaching reshuffle at this time of year
Well thats a given - it happens every year at the majority of clubs - some leave for better opportunities others because of poor performance, conflict or results.
But to say the reason for player disruption is speculative at best & and at worst rubbish from outside POV
No where do I read that Lethlean knows AR hasnt lost the players - no where do I read that he believes that its all the assistants fault- the only gem of the article is the identified need to get some AA talent into the club.
ok then - hes a genius, but this is not an article about Lethlean its about the coaches and players

So on the point about the coaching shuffle I could easily argue and make a VERY strong point that we have performed poorly and last week as a result of sacking announcement, the players have responded well and performed at a higher level given the Hawthorn result.
The players dont have to listen to the crap message anymore from someone leaving - and the shackles are off.

The finger pointing has now shifted from players to assistants - so I guess we will be ok next year with the AR game plan and player management

[The Fireman]

what a miserable season..can't wait till its over.. cant ever remember feeling like this.

[Cairnsman]

So Judd is saying the effort against the Hawks doesn't resemble that of a team where the coach had lost the players, interesting.

Also seems to be suggesting the Coach is only one part of many, many parts.

Also interesting is Judd thinks Paddy could hold the key to a sharp rise back up the ladder. Some on this board think Paddy should be traded, and for a second round DP no less, Talk about jumping at shaddows or just plain throwing your toys out the cot.

The AFL industry certainly transcends the age of entitlement. Ironically our motto uses the word loyalty. Maybe the marketing department should review that.

Strength through...

[takeaway]

Te coach has obviously NOT lost the players!

Chris Judd agrees, in an article in the Age today. Makes some good points about how Football clubs work and the approach taken by the Saints, ie Lethlean.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/not ... 4zymr.html

Good article.

How
HOW is it a good article Sanyta?
(I would think it the first time you have agreed with anything to come out of a "cheating carlsum" associate in your life)

Basically the point of the article is that its tough on players with a coaching reshuffle at this time of year
Well thats a given - it happens every year at the majority of clubs - some leave for better opportunities others because of poor performance, conflict or results.
But to say the reason for player disruption is speculative at best & and at worst rubbish from outside POV
No where do I read that Lethlean knows AR hasnt lost the players - no where do I read that he believes that its all the assistants fault- the only gem of the article is the identified need to get some AA talent into the club.
ok then - hes a genius, but this is not an article about Lethlean its about the coaches and players

So on the point about the coaching shuffle I could easily argue and make a VERY strong point that we have performed poorly and last week as a result of sacking announcement, the players have responded well and performed at a higher level given the Hawthorn result.
The players dont have to listen to the crap message anymore from someone leaving - and the shackles are off.

The finger pointing has now shifted from players to assistants - so I guess we will be ok next year with the AR game plan and player management

I posted it because I thought it was a good article. What has "cheating carlscum" got to do with it?

"An AFL club would be incredibly simple to turn around if all that was required was to fill one position with a hyper-competent employee. The reality is a lot more moving parts than just the senior coach need to be working effectively for a club to succeed".

The article was not meant to cover everything, but in the main was saying that when a team has not done well the media's (and some supporters) first thought is to call for the head of the coach. Fair enough. That might be the right call. Lethlean has said it is not. Other parts of the club might need to be looked at, ie coaching structure, assistants, player list, etc, and that is what Lethlean is doing. Already moved on some assistants, with more changes likely to occur.

Whether solely replacing Richo with a better coach (is a viable one available?) would turn the club around, who knows? I am happy to leave the review to the club, as they are best placed to do so. We really know nothing.

If Richo with a new team/structure and hopefully a couple of new decent players cannot deliver substantial improvement next year, then he is gone.

[Myron Gaines]

So Judd is saying the effort against the Hawks doesn't resemble that of a team where the coach had lost the players, interesting.

Also seems to be suggesting the Coach is only one part of many, many parts.

Also interesting is Judd thinks Paddy could hold the key to a sharp rise back up the ladder. Some on this board think Paddy should be traded, and for a second round DP no less, Talk about jumping at shaddows or just plain throwing your toys out the cot.

The AFL industry certainly transcends the age of entitlement. Ironically our motto uses the word loyalty. Maybe the marketing department should review that.

Strength through...

Judd is right, that one game doesn’t resemble a team coached by a bloke that has lost the players. I reckon I’d struggle to count the fingers on one hand for games where the players resemble a team playing for their coach this season. So about one in four games the club resembles a team playing for their coach. Ouch.

As I mentioned earlier, it’s highly concerning the players aren’t performing to a moderately to high standard consistently. That suggests the players are seriously underperforming to their capability. That’s on the coaching staff. Richo as the head coach is 100% accountable.

How many more opposition run ons where we get 6, 7 or 8 goals kicked against us without a yelp in the coaching box do we have to put up with to realise that Richo lacks coaching agility to change things up? Carlisle forward. Okay.

Most concerning for mine is how many soldiers will be sacrificed to justify Richo’s position as head coach? Three assistants have been let go & may never find work in the AFL again. Trout likewise. Richo & Leathlean have taken aim at the playing group. How many young men’s AFL careers will be cut short because they haven’t been afforded the opportunity of a professional environment to thrive as footballers & are being thrown under a bus by their coach & teacher?

Let’s face it, Richo has maintained a high-manic-pressure-headless chook game plan that most other coaches moved on from in about 2014. A very basic & unsophisticated game plan that is built around pressure & bombing it to the hot spot. This concept has been worked out by the majority of Richo’s peers hence why we’ve gone backwards at a rate of knots.

[Cairnsman]

So Judd is saying the effort against the Hawks doesn't resemble that of a team where the coach had lost the players, interesting.

Also seems to be suggesting the Coach is only one part of many, many parts.

Also interesting is Judd thinks Paddy could hold the key to a sharp rise back up the ladder. Some on this board think Paddy should be traded, and for a second round DP no less, Talk about jumping at shaddows or just plain throwing your toys out the cot.

The AFL industry certainly transcends the age of entitlement. Ironically our motto uses the word loyalty. Maybe the marketing department should review that.

Strength through...

Judd is right, that one game doesn’t resemble a team coached by a bloke that has lost the players. I reckon I’d struggle to count the fingers on one hand for games where the players resemble a team playing for their coach this season. So about one in four games the club resembles a team playing for their coach. Ouch.

As I mentioned earlier, it’s highly concerning the players aren’t performing to a moderately to high standard consistently. That suggests the players are seriously underperforming to their capability. That’s on the coaching staff. Richo as the head coach is 100% accountable.

How many more opposition run ons where we get 6, 7 or 8 goals kicked against us without a yelp in the coaching box do we have to put up with to realise that Richo lacks coaching agility to change things up? Carlisle forward. Okay.

Most concerning for mine is how many soldiers will be sacrificed to justify Richo’s position as head coach? Three assistants have been let go & may never find work in the AFL again. Trout likewise. Richo & Leathlean have taken aim at the playing group. How many young men’s AFL careers will be cut short because they haven’t been afforded the opportunity of a professional environment to thrive as footballers & are being thrown under a bus by their coach & teacher?

Let’s face it, Richo has maintained a high-manic-pressure-headless chook game plan that most other coaches moved on from in about 2014. A very basic & unsophisticated game plan that is built around pressure & bombing it to the hot spot. This concept has been worked out by the majority of Richo’s peers hence why we’ve gone backwards at a rate of knots.

Isn't Richmonds game plan based on manic pressure? They certainly don't look like they just stroll around the ground.

[sunsaint]

=
I posted it because I thought it was a good article. What has "cheating carlscum" got to do with it?

"An AFL club would be incredibly simple to turn around if all that was required was to fill one position with a hyper-competent employee. The reality is a lot more moving parts than just the senior coach need to be working effectively for a club to succeed".

The article was not meant to cover everything, but in the main was saying that when a team has not done well the media's (and some supporters) first thought is to call for the head of the coach. Fair enough. That might be the right call. Lethlean has said it is not. Other parts of the club might need to be looked at, ie coaching structure, assistants, player list, etc, and that is what Lethlean is doing. Already moved on some assistants, with more changes likely to occur.

Whether solely replacing Richo with a better coach (is a viable one available?) would turn the club around, who knows? I am happy to leave the review to the club, as they are best placed to do so. We really know nothing.

If Richo with a new team/structure and hopefully a couple of new decent players cannot deliver substantial improvement next year, then he is gone.

the carlton reference was to saynta as thats how he dismissively disregards & describes anyone out of carlton
Same result next year AR's gone - no brainer
Lethlean not sacking AR now I would consider mostly contract and outward impression of stability reasons
Injection of AA players - no brainer that we have been trying to do for 4 years now.
AS i said I dont think the article highlights anything surprising or new. And as of yet I dont think Lethlean has worked any magic - certainly the feeling I get he is busy doing all he can to maintain an image of stability within the club
I think where we differ greatly is that the pressure on AR is coming from fans - yes us motley crew
as there is whole thread suggesting that the media has surprisingly gone very soft on him to date

[Yorkeys]

Rance, Martin, Cotchin all appear rather un-manic to me, but sometimes Jack the Cousin can look manic coming down from a great height. Controlled aggression and skilled disposal beats spittle and short lived fury it seems. And of course a well drilled team helps keep everyone calm. A coach does the well drilling.

[Myron Gaines]

So Judd is saying the effort against the Hawks doesn't resemble that of a team where the coach had lost the players, interesting.

Also seems to be suggesting the Coach is only one part of many, many parts.

Also interesting is Judd thinks Paddy could hold the key to a sharp rise back up the ladder. Some on this board think Paddy should be traded, and for a second round DP no less, Talk about jumping at shaddows or just plain throwing your toys out the cot.

The AFL industry certainly transcends the age of entitlement. Ironically our motto uses the word loyalty. Maybe the marketing department should review that.

Strength through...

Judd is right, that one game doesn’t resemble a team coached by a bloke that has lost the players. I reckon I’d struggle to count the fingers on one hand for games where the players resemble a team playing for their coach this season. So about one in four games the club resembles a team playing for their coach. Ouch.

As I mentioned earlier, it’s highly concerning the players aren’t performing to a moderately to high standard consistently. That suggests the players are seriously underperforming to their capability. That’s on the coaching staff. Richo as the head coach is 100% accountable.

How many more opposition run ons where we get 6, 7 or 8 goals kicked against us without a yelp in the coaching box do we have to put up with to realise that Richo lacks coaching agility to change things up? Carlisle forward. Okay.

Most concerning for mine is how many soldiers will be sacrificed to justify Richo’s position as head coach? Three assistants have been let go & may never find work in the AFL again. Trout likewise. Richo & Leathlean have taken aim at the playing group. How many young men’s AFL careers will be cut short because they haven’t been afforded the opportunity of a professional environment to thrive as footballers & are being thrown under a bus by their coach & teacher?

Let’s face it, Richo has maintained a high-manic-pressure-headless chook game plan that most other coaches moved on from in about 2014. A very basic & unsophisticated game plan that is built around pressure & bombing it to the hot spot. This concept has been worked out by the majority of Richo’s peers hence why we’ve gone backwards at a rate of knots.

Isn't Richmonds game plan based on manic pressure? They certainly don't look like they just stroll around the ground.

No, you couldn’t be further from the truth.

[st.byron]

So Judd is saying the effort against the Hawks doesn't resemble that of a team where the coach had lost the players, interesting.

Also seems to be suggesting the Coach is only one part of many, many parts.

Also interesting is Judd thinks Paddy could hold the key to a sharp rise back up the ladder. Some on this board think Paddy should be traded, and for a second round DP no less, Talk about jumping at shaddows or just plain throwing your toys out the cot.

The AFL industry certainly transcends the age of entitlement. Ironically our motto uses the word loyalty. Maybe the marketing department should review that.

Strength through...

Judd is right, that one game doesn’t resemble a team coached by a bloke that has lost the players. I reckon I’d struggle to count the fingers on one hand for games where the players resemble a team playing for their coach this season. So about one in four games the club resembles a team playing for their coach. Ouch.

As I mentioned earlier, it’s highly concerning the players aren’t performing to a moderately to high standard consistently. That suggests the players are seriously underperforming to their capability. That’s on the coaching staff. Richo as the head coach is 100% accountable.

How many more opposition run ons where we get 6, 7 or 8 goals kicked against us without a yelp in the coaching box do we have to put up with to realise that Richo lacks coaching agility to change things up? Carlisle forward. Okay.

Most concerning for mine is how many soldiers will be sacrificed to justify Richo’s position as head coach? Three assistants have been let go & may never find work in the AFL again. Trout likewise. Richo & Leathlean have taken aim at the playing group. How many young men’s AFL careers will be cut short because they haven’t been afforded the opportunity of a professional environment to thrive as footballers & are being thrown under a bus by their coach & teacher?

Let’s face it, Richo has maintained a high-manic-pressure-headless chook game plan that most other coaches moved on from in about 2014. A very basic & unsophisticated game plan that is built around pressure & bombing it to the hot spot. This concept has been worked out by the majority of Richo’s peers hence why we’ve gone backwards at a rate of knots.

Agree with this post. Depends on how you look at last week’s game as to whether or not he’s lost the playing group. You can argue that it proves he hasn’t lost them, but then if they can perform to that standard, why have they not been doing that week in week out? If they were playing from trusting Richardson last Saturday, how are the majority of the games this season explained? Logic would follow that those games demonstrate he’s lost them. He’s lost em, he hasn’t, he’s lost em, he hasn’t. I reckon it’s more telling to look at a longer term pattern than just one game in isolation. And the longer term pattern doesn’t look good.

[rodgerfox]

Isn't Richmonds game plan based on manic pressure? They certainly don't look like they just stroll around the ground.

No, you couldn’t be further from the truth.

Exactly.

Manic pressure is a myth.

Hawthorn were the best pressure team in the comp for about 4 years statistically, yet lost contested ball and were low in the tackle count.


It's not manic at all - and Richmond are the same. What pressures the opposition, is the system that they have in place, that the players adhere to religiously.


This is Richardson's biggest failure. He simply doesn't get this.


He seems to think that running around like a drunken viking is how you win games of footy. But in reality, you get tired, concussed and beaten on the scoreboard unless you put some system around it.

[Saintmatt]

So Judd is saying the effort against the Hawks doesn't resemble that of a team where the coach had lost the players, interesting.

Also seems to be suggesting the Coach is only one part of many, many parts.

Also interesting is Judd thinks Paddy could hold the key to a sharp rise back up the ladder. Some on this board think Paddy should be traded, and for a second round DP no less, Talk about jumping at shaddows or just plain throwing your toys out the cot.

The AFL industry certainly transcends the age of entitlement. Ironically our motto uses the word loyalty. Maybe the marketing department should review that.

Strength through...

Judd is right, that one game doesn’t resemble a team coached by a bloke that has lost the players. I reckon I’d struggle to count the fingers on one hand for games where the players resemble a team playing for their coach this season. So about one in four games the club resembles a team playing for their coach. Ouch.

As I mentioned earlier, it’s highly concerning the players aren’t performing to a moderately to high standard consistently. That suggests the players are seriously underperforming to their capability. That’s on the coaching staff. Richo as the head coach is 100% accountable.

How many more opposition run ons where we get 6, 7 or 8 goals kicked against us without a yelp in the coaching box do we have to put up with to realise that Richo lacks coaching agility to change things up? Carlisle forward. Okay.

Most concerning for mine is how many soldiers will be sacrificed to justify Richo’s position as head coach? Three assistants have been let go & may never find work in the AFL again. Trout likewise. Richo & Leathlean have taken aim at the playing group. How many young men’s AFL careers will be cut short because they haven’t been afforded the opportunity of a professional environment to thrive as footballers & are being thrown under a bus by their coach & teacher?

Let’s face it, Richo has maintained a high-manic-pressure-headless chook game plan that most other coaches moved on from in about 2014. A very basic & unsophisticated game plan that is built around pressure & bombing it to the hot spot. This concept has been worked out by the majority of Richo’s peers hence why we’ve gone backwards at a rate of knots.

Isn't Richmonds game plan based on manic pressure? They certainly don't look like they just stroll around the ground.

Yep. But this is where that slight difference of having a few really good cows amongst the cattle appears. I think our manic pressure game would be the equal of the Tiggas if we had a Rance, a Cotchin, a Martin and a J Riewoldt. Unfortunately - we have a group of poorly skilled players - without direction of a firm gameplan and coach with a bit of c u next Tuesday in him - who make it almost impossible to play Richmond's gamestyle as we're constantly giving the ball to the opposition.

When Richmond invariably get the ball back from the opposition - they don't all crowd the contest and take-off in different directions knowing the ball is going to keep going forward. We get the ball - crowd the contest - then handball backwards/sideways 3 times and hoist it high. Lose possession then chase tail.

Pretty simply - Richmond's pressure results in offensive running; our pressure results in defensive running.

[Ghost Like]

So Judd is saying the effort against the Hawks doesn't resemble that of a team where the coach had lost the players, interesting.

Also seems to be suggesting the Coach is only one part of many, many parts.

Also interesting is Judd thinks Paddy could hold the key to a sharp rise back up the ladder. Some on this board think Paddy should be traded, and for a second round DP no less, Talk about jumping at shaddows or just plain throwing your toys out the cot.

The AFL industry certainly transcends the age of entitlement. Ironically our motto uses the word loyalty. Maybe the marketing department should review that.

Strength through...

If the age of entitlement includes the 70's, 80's, 90's, Naughties' and now the Teenies', so be it. The St Kilda motto really only relates to the supporters, the board and the volunteers. If we apply it to players and coaches we cannot seriously embrace FA's, the joy we got from the G-Train and Hammil is somewhat sordid. We hold and embrace all our players, hoping for 3 retirements a year so we can take part in the draft.

Yes, I am one that believes Paddy will be of more value allowing us to trade, even if it's a 2nd rounder, I doubt he's worth much more. All due respect to Judd and yourself. If I'm wrong, great but I cannot see his worth from his time with us. Smarter people than me will come up with other trades, fingers crossed they work.

I've seen all my friend's teams win premierships, except my Melbourne mates. I'm still firmly with St Kilda, the day I'm not is the day I'm dead or the AFL has lost me for good. Sometimes it's hard to tell which will come first.

[freely]

Well - pressure. It's the least you can do, isn't it, if you haven't got the skills. So - when you know the cattle's a bit iffy you can still demand they tackle hard. No excuse not to, and sometimes it's enough. It's never gonna replace a gameplan though!

[spert]

Players playing for their careers, not for the coach I reckon.

[Viscount Jeremiah]

It's to simplistic to blame it all on one guy.

As a club we need to stop making decisions based on emotion

[Yorkeys]

So who is driving the bus over the cliff if its not the Senior Coach. Just because the passengers can sing the words to one song together doesn't stop the terrible crash. His record is very poor over a long period - a life time in professional sport terms. I hope its not Alan but if it is (as I believe) the consequences of keeping him on for 2019 are going to be so costly and even longer felt. 2020 indeed! what a joke on members. I have not heard one convincing argument that he is a good coach only weak truisms/rhetorical questions like: its complex and he is only a cog (no its not, good managers make it look straightforward); who would be better (plenty, and anyway could there be worse? OK, agree: Bolton, Watters Neeld and now 23 goal Ross); stability is important (we are anything but stable under ARs coaching, it is crisis management and triage). In sacking someone with Alan's record the only emotions would be sorrow at the 2 year extension and disappointment at the state he leaves the club in. And of course relief.

[elizabethr]

Hopefully he can find them prior to this week's game

[David-Lee]

As I've said before, not out of arrogance or knowing it all, we are not getting a new coach unless Richo fails in 2019 with his new assistants and the free agents and trades/pick we get.

Then, we will make a move, this is also when some very good coaches become available.

[desertsaint]

i don't really care whether he has lost the players or not. the fact of the matter is the team is miles off where it was meant to be under his reign. if he hasn't lost the players it's even more damning. imagine what would happen when he does?

[Cairnsman]

So Judd is saying the effort against the Hawks doesn't resemble that of a team where the coach had lost the players, interesting.

Also seems to be suggesting the Coach is only one part of many, many parts.

Also interesting is Judd thinks Paddy could hold the key to a sharp rise back up the ladder. Some on this board think Paddy should be traded, and for a second round DP no less, Talk about jumping at shaddows or just plain throwing your toys out the cot.

The AFL industry certainly transcends the age of entitlement. Ironically our motto uses the word loyalty. Maybe the marketing department should review that.

Strength through...

If the age of entitlement includes the 70's, 80's, 90's, Naughties' and now the Teenies', so be it. The St Kilda motto really only relates to the supporters, the board and the volunteers. If we apply it to players and coaches we cannot seriously embrace FA's, the joy we got from the G-Train and Hammil is somewhat sordid. We hold and embrace all our players, hoping for 3 retirements a year so we can take part in the draft.

Yes, I am one that believes Paddy will be of more value allowing us to trade, even if it's a 2nd rounder, I doubt he's worth much more. All due respect to Judd and yourself. If I'm wrong, great but I cannot see his worth from his time with us. Smarter people than me will come up with other trades, fingers crossed they work.

I've seen all my friend's teams win premierships, except my Melbourne mates. I'm still firmly with St Kilda, the day I'm not is the day I'm dead or the AFL has lost me for good. Sometimes it's hard to tell which will come first.

The value of Paddy's stock is still based on potential. No question. Based on the investment by the club; mainly in using the number 1 DP to recruit him, it makes sense to remain invested. No1 DPs and power forwards don't come around very often. He strung games together this year and whilst not setting the world on fire it was a positive season based on previous seasons.

A couple of good pre seasons and get him playing consistently for a couple of seasons in a forward line with another KP player, Bruce or Battle, and Membrey creating play around the two talls and then see how the investment is looking.

Trading Paddy this year would be akin to buying high and selling low even when there are signs the market is on the rise. The club would have their license taken off them. The AFL might even block the trade to protect us from ourselves.

[Ghost Like]

I hope you are right Cairnsman, I truly do. However, another season or two of similar output or bad breaks with Paddy and his value will be wiped from the market floor. Paddy is only one option, we need to do something, the coach and his dwindling assistants have stalled a list that should be performing better. We have talent, I believe that, for some players, with the right coaches, that talent will be realised.

I think the AFL has more to worry about with St Kilda than whether we trade Paddy and doubt his trading would void our licence. Gold Coast & Melbourne have theirs after failed top draft picks.

[skeptic]

For me personally, I rate Paddy. On talent I think he can make it.

Are we really confident he’s durable though? He’s what for seasons into his career and looking like he’s one bad concussion from retirement.
He’s had what 5 already? What are the chances he doesn’t get another in the next 2 years?

The housing analogy is closer to burying high and selling low not because the market is down but rather you over paid (perhaps you’re an emotional buyer)... if you’re not going to get the return that you want, sometimes it’s better to cut losses.
(Yes the housing analogy doesn’t work that well)

[chico2001]

A fairly soft article from Judd and I think he may be trying to get a comparison with Carlton and their performance. He has a vested interest in doing that because I believe he is a key decision maker at Carlton and some of their decisions have been poor AND because he is in the media he can defend Carltons effort with various excuses. There would have to be a few trying to save their necks at the blue baggers surely.

I just cant see a topline player coming to the saints because Richardson is not destination coach No 1, the excuses keep coming. I am waiting for an all out attack on the members and supporters from the club...That will be next. Have to agree with Desertsainter, if he hasnt lost the players now, what the hell happens if he does?

Take away the excuses and what have you got left.

[Ghost Like]

The housing analogy isn't bad Skeptic, we bought a house that reminded us of the one we grew up in (The house of Plugger). We did pay overs, believing we needed this power forward with Roo nearing the end and missing out on Boyd.
Unfortunately I am yet to see a quality that deserves the description "power". He's not got hands like Patton, the accuracy of Brown, the athleticism of Buddy, the body work of Hawkins, the nous of Kennedy, the endurance of Lynch, the flexibility of Boyd...I'd like to see one of those. Battle and Bruce both offer and have shown more in my opinion.