Phillips and Brown re-sign

[minneapolis]

Brown for another year is OK. He played pretty well against GWS. I would have liked to see other guys get played (Logan or Clavarino) but it's not his fault.

Phillips is a good signing. He may have been tempted to go to Collingwood. If he did, people would be screaming that we didn't sign him.

I like that Phillips and Paton are natural footballers with strong endurance. Something to work on.

[Joffa Burns]

Phillips has earned another contract IMO.

I’d be happy with Brown as back up but coach has shown Brown is his first choice defender.

Brown has been outstanding for us this year; why are we in such a rush to usher veterans out the door?

Outstanding? Brown has been outstanding in his 12 matches?

Where have I suggested I wanted Brown rushed out the door?
I wrote "I'd be happy with Brown staying as back up" but I can't see the future in him.

He offers no rebound, is limited to defensive play only and has been comprehensively beaten one on one this season - example Ben Brown North Melbourne.

Now I could understand you suggesting Carslile has been outstanding (I'd say very good) but could live with outstanding, but Brown OUTSTANDING!

I know stats don't mean everything, but it's a long stretch to suggest a guy who averages 2.5 kicks, 4 handballs and 2 marks per match (none intercept marks) has been outstanding.

Oh but he provides leadership hey? So much so he isn't even part of the saints leadership group that is sorely lacking players who lead by example.

Yep, I'm happy to see his contract extended, I'd rather see Austin play and given time and Brown used when the right match up is there or as back up, but to suggest he's been outstanding is at best laughable.

[Scollop]

Nathan Brown looks outstanding in a red white and black jumper. He fills that jumper so well and so tightly that you would be a fool not to realise that he is the epitome of a tough no nonsense strong defender. We also have tough and buff half forwards like Mav Weller and you just can't have enough buff in your team. Don't they look outstanding on the pamphlets and in the media releases?

Nate is a senior player at St Kilda and everyone knows that most senior players provide leadership ...and most people who follow footy media have heard there is currently a void of leadership at St Kilda. Those young Saints listed players ( who are gaining valuable experience learning how to play on VFL ovals at Port Melbourne, Coburg, Williamstown, Casey and Sandringham ) need blokes like Nathan to show them the way because although he looks tough and buff, he is really a very nice guy and has outstanding character.

Above all else, the Saints believe the most important thing that our members and supporters are looking for is good character and nice guys that do not rub people up the wrong way and have good manners ( makes our job easier in management and on the executive. That's one of the main reasons we extended Mr Vanilla's contract). Building a top 4 team and creating an environment for elite footy development of our youth is important to the Saints, however atm we aren't interested in developing any elite young defenders ( sorry we didn't mean aren't interested - it's just not part of Richo's plan right now). When Nathan's contract is finsihed Richo is looking to recruit a 28-30 year old KPD that another AFL club wants to discard

[Con Gorozidis]

Nathan Brown looks outstanding in a red white and black jumper. He fills that jumper so well and so tightly that you would be a fool not to realise that he is the epitome of a tough no nonsense strong defender. We also have tough and buff half forwards like Mav Weller and you just can't have enough buff in your team. Don't they look outstanding on the pamphlets and in the media releases?

Nate is a senior player at St Kilda and everyone knows that most senior players provide leadership ...and most people who follow footy media have heard there is currently a void of leadership at St Kilda. Those young Saints listed players ( who are gaining valuable experience learning how to play on VFL ovals at Port Melbourne, Coburg, Williamstown, Casey and Sandringham ) need blokes like Nathan to show them the way because although he looks tough and buff, he is really a very nice guy and has outstanding character.

Above all else, the Saints believe the most important thing that our members and supporters are looking for is good character and nice guys that do not rub people up the wrong way and have good manners ( makes our job easier in management and on the executive. That's one of the main reasons we extended Mr Vanilla's contract). Building a top 4 team and creating an environment for elite footy development of our youth is important to the Saints, however atm we aren't interested in developing any elite young defenders ( sorry we didn't mean aren't interested - it's just not part of Richo's plan right now). When Nathan's contract is finsihed Richo is looking to recruit a 28-30 year old KPD that another AFL club wants to discard

Spot on.

Hopefully we can entice Dale Morris and Heath Grundy. Both solid citizens with mature hard bodies with firm raw hard muscular oiled bodies and premiership medallions

That is what St Kilda is about!

Getting other clubs experienced good players after they have peaked.

Long may that continue!

Richo is rubbing himself off on a pair of Nate Brown's used shorts right now.

Go Saintas!

[takeaway]

Nathan Brown looks outstanding in a red white and black jumper. He fills that jumper so well and so tightly that you would be a fool not to realise that he is the epitome of a tough no nonsense strong defender. We also have tough and buff half forwards like Mav Weller and you just can't have enough buff in your team. Don't they look outstanding on the pamphlets and in the media releases?

Nate is a senior player at St Kilda and everyone knows that most senior players provide leadership ...and most people who follow footy media have heard there is currently a void of leadership at St Kilda. Those young Saints listed players ( who are gaining valuable experience learning how to play on VFL ovals at Port Melbourne, Coburg, Williamstown, Casey and Sandringham ) need blokes like Nathan to show them the way because although he looks tough and buff, he is really a very nice guy and has outstanding character.

Above all else, the Saints believe the most important thing that our members and supporters are looking for is good character and nice guys that do not rub people up the wrong way and have good manners ( makes our job easier in management and on the executive. That's one of the main reasons we extended Mr Vanilla's contract). Building a top 4 team and creating an environment for elite footy development of our youth is important to the Saints, however atm we aren't interested in developing any elite young defenders ( sorry we didn't mean aren't interested - it's just not part of Richo's plan right now). When Nathan's contract is finsihed Richo is looking to recruit a 28-30 year old KPD that another AFL club wants to discard

You're using the wrong account again, Donald

[rodgerfox]

Nathan Brown looks outstanding in a red white and black jumper. He fills that jumper so well and so tightly that you would be a fool not to realise that he is the epitome of a tough no nonsense strong defender. We also have tough and buff half forwards like Mav Weller and you just can't have enough buff in your team. Don't they look outstanding on the pamphlets and in the media releases?

Nate is a senior player at St Kilda and everyone knows that most senior players provide leadership ...and most people who follow footy media have heard there is currently a void of leadership at St Kilda. Those young Saints listed players ( who are gaining valuable experience learning how to play on VFL ovals at Port Melbourne, Coburg, Williamstown, Casey and Sandringham ) need blokes like Nathan to show them the way because although he looks tough and buff, he is really a very nice guy and has outstanding character.

Above all else, the Saints believe the most important thing that our members and supporters are looking for is good character and nice guys that do not rub people up the wrong way and have good manners ( makes our job easier in management and on the executive. That's one of the main reasons we extended Mr Vanilla's contract). Building a top 4 team and creating an environment for elite footy development of our youth is important to the Saints, however atm we aren't interested in developing any elite young defenders ( sorry we didn't mean aren't interested - it's just not part of Richo's plan right now). When Nathan's contract is finsihed Richo is looking to recruit a 28-30 year old KPD that another AFL club wants to discard

Why are people so 'footy naive' to think that 'big defenders' only assist in the development of other 'big defenders' and nothing else?

Do people forget their own playing time?

Reiwoldt wasn't a small forward, but provided leadership and assisted in the development of dozens of players over his journey - with only one or two being 'tall forwards' like himself. Guys like Steve Johnson taught Tom Hawkins the caper, and now Tom Hawkins teaches guys like Menzel how to play in a functioning forward line.

Jack Reiwoldt runs the show down forward at Richmond, with Castagna and other midgets learning how to play from him. In time, they will probably be teaching their next young key forward what to do.

Development and guidance of younger players isn't a like for like thing FFS. How unbelievably naive to suggest it is!


And it's not even just 'teaching' either. Having senior guys that perform the basics of football well, and know how to perform consistently in most conditions make life easier for young guys around them, and even further up the ground.


Hate Richo as much as you want, and disagree with the overall selection policy as much as you like - but you can't possibly be so naive and ignorant regarding the game of football to scoff at experience as being an absolutely critical part of forming a football team and in the development of young players.


How or why Brown came to the club, and whether or not we should have developed someone to cover the early and unexpected retirement of Dempster is irrelevant really. Fact is we have an appalling lack of balance on our list in terms of good, solid, senior players. And Brown is one of them, so he's really important if we're hoping to develop the younger guys into good footballers.

[barneyboyz]

I'm surprised by the view of many on Brown.

He is ahead of all our key defenders (excepting Carlisle) at the moment. The others still have some ground to make before he makes place for them.

I agree with this. We shouldn't underestimate his performances or lack of from others.

Very solid player

[Con Gorozidis]

Dempster is 34.

Now his retirement was 'unexpected'.

The lengths that club apologists go to find new excuses just get funnier and funnier.

[dragit]

Nathan Brown looks outstanding in a red white and black jumper. He fills that jumper so well and so tightly that you would be a fool not to realise that he is the epitome of a tough no nonsense strong defender. We also have tough and buff half forwards like Mav Weller and you just can't have enough buff in your team. Don't they look outstanding on the pamphlets and in the media releases?

Nate is a senior player at St Kilda and everyone knows that most senior players provide leadership ...and most people who follow footy media have heard there is currently a void of leadership at St Kilda. Those young Saints listed players ( who are gaining valuable experience learning how to play on VFL ovals at Port Melbourne, Coburg, Williamstown, Casey and Sandringham ) need blokes like Nathan to show them the way because although he looks tough and buff, he is really a very nice guy and has outstanding character.

Above all else, the Saints believe the most important thing that our members and supporters are looking for is good character and nice guys that do not rub people up the wrong way and have good manners ( makes our job easier in management and on the executive. That's one of the main reasons we extended Mr Vanilla's contract). Building a top 4 team and creating an environment for elite footy development of our youth is important to the Saints, however atm we aren't interested in developing any elite young defenders ( sorry we didn't mean aren't interested - it's just not part of Richo's plan right now). When Nathan's contract is finsihed Richo is looking to recruit a 28-30 year old KPD that another AFL club wants to discard

Why are people so 'footy naive' to think that 'big defenders' only assist in the development of other 'big defenders' and nothing else?

Do people forget their own playing time?

Reiwoldt wasn't a small forward, but provided leadership and assisted in the development of dozens of players over his journey - with only one or two being 'tall forwards' like himself. Guys like Steve Johnson taught Tom Hawkins the caper, and now Tom Hawkins teaches guys like Menzel how to play in a functioning forward line.

Jack Reiwoldt runs the show down forward at Richmond, with Castagna and other midgets learning how to play from him. In time, they will probably be teaching their next young key forward what to do.

Development and guidance of younger players isn't a like for like thing FFS. How unbelievably naive to suggest it is!


And it's not even just 'teaching' either. Having senior guys that perform the basics of football well, and know how to perform consistently in most conditions make life easier for young guys around them, and even further up the ground.


Hate Richo as much as you want, and disagree with the overall selection policy as much as you like - but you can't possibly be so naive and ignorant regarding the game of football to scoff at experience as being an absolutely critical part of forming a football team and in the development of young players.


How or why Brown came to the club, and whether or not we should have developed someone to cover the early and unexpected retirement of Dempster is irrelevant really. Fact is we have an appalling lack of balance on our list in terms of good, solid, senior players. And Brown is one of them, so he's really important if we're hoping to develop the younger guys into good footballers.

Your point could potentially make a little bit of sense if Brown wasn't surrounded by Geary, Gilbert, Webster, Savage, Newnes, Roberton… and we didn't have the oldest backline in the comp.

Also, I'd argue that Brown doesn't really do the basics of football that well as his 2 kicks & 2 marks per match would suggest. No other player in the comp getting a regular game has stats anywhere near as low as Nathan Brown, plus he has been regularly beaten by his direct opponents this year.

We have an appalling lack of balance between youth and vets in our backline and this guy getting picked every week regardless of suitable matchups is part of the problem…

[rodgerfox]

Dempster is 34.

Now his retirement was 'unexpected'.

The lengths that club apologists go to find new excuses just get funnier and funnier.

Club apologist?

Is this aimed at me? Surely not?

[rodgerfox]

Your point could potentially make a little bit of sense if Brown wasn't surrounded by Geary, Gilbert, Webster, Savage, Newnes, Roberton… and we didn't have the oldest backline in the comp.

Did you read my post at all?

What you wrote doesn't make one iota of difference to my point.

[dragit]

Browny is teaching the caper to Geary, Webster, Carlisle, Gilbert, Newnes and Savage?

That was seemingly the crux of your point.

[rodgerfox]

Browny is teaching the caper to Geary, Webster, Carlisle, Gilbert, Newnes and Savage?

That was seemingly the crux of your point.

With all due respect, you must be either looking for a fight, or incredibly naive if that's what you took from my post.

[rodgerfox]

...... plus he has been regularly beaten by his direct opponents this year....

I'm not so sure about that.

Round	Result	Oppo. Inside 50s	Opp. Goal Kickers
R1	Win	49	Charlie Cameron 3
R2	Loss 52 Points	66	Brown 6 (3 Marks)
R3	Loss 49 Points	51	Walker 3 (2 Marks)
R4	Loss 47 Points	62	Hawkins 0 (2 Marks), Menzel 5
R5	Draw	67	Patton 1 (4 Marks)
R6	Loss 35 Points	56	Isaac Smith 4
R7	Loss 39 Points	63	McDonald 2
R8	Loss 30 Points	57	McCarthy 1
R9	Loss 28 Points	55	DeGoey 6
R10	Loss 28 Points	63	Caddy 6	*DNP
R11	Loss 13 Points	44	Kennedy 6	*DNP
R12	Loss 71 Points	49	Franklin 4
R13	Win 2 Points	41	Lynch 3
R14	Win 2 Points	62	Hogan 3	*Injured
R15	Loss 36 Points	67	Dixon 4	*DNP
R16	Win 64 Points	36	Curnow 1	*DNP
R17	Loss 54 Points	52	Reiwoldt 4	*DNP
R18	Loss 25 Points	46	Himmleburg 4 (4 Marks)

Brown kicked 6 in R2, however even with a staggering 66 Inside 50s he only took 3 marks. Aside from that, probably Himmelburg is the only key forward that has got a hold of us whilst Brown has been in the team and he kicked 4 straight from only 4 Marks.
DeGoey was the other one, but he was against Coffield and Geary that night.

I think he's been pretty solid really.

[dragit]

Okay, here is my take

R.2. Destroyed by Brown in round 2
R.3. Beaten by Walker in round 3 (4 shots on goal)
R.7. Well beaten by McDonald (7 marks - 4 shots on goal)
Didn't really have a viable match-up from round 5 - 9 so shouldn't have played
R.11. Franklin kicked 4 from 8 shots on goal plus 12 marks, Brown could not go with him at all, absolutely monstered.
R.12. Again absolutely destroyed by Lynch - 3 goals in the first 40 minutes
R.14. Hogan - 5 shots on goal
R.18. Beaten by a 22 YO, 30 game player

[rodgerfox]

Okay, here is my take

R.2. Destroyed by Brown in round 2
R.3. Beaten by Walker in round 3 (4 shots on goal)
R.7. Well beaten by McDonald (7 marks - 4 shots on goal)
Didn't really have a viable match-up from round 5 - 9 so shouldn't have played
R.11. Franklin kicked 4 from 8 shots on goal plus 12 marks, Brown could not go with him at all, absolutely monstered.
R.12. Again absolutely destroyed by Lynch - 3 goals in the first 40 minutes
R.14. Hogan - 5 shots on goal
R.18. Beaten by a 22 YO, 30 game player

If a defender conceding 4 shots at goal to a key forward in a team that gets flogged is being 'badly beaten', then there are quite a few defenders out there that should be looking for a new job!

[Scollop]

Okay, here is my take

R.2. Destroyed by Brown in round 2
R.3. Beaten by Walker in round 3 (4 shots on goal)
R.7. Well beaten by McDonald (7 marks - 4 shots on goal)
Didn't really have a viable match-up from round 5 - 9 so shouldn't have played
R.11. Franklin kicked 4 from 8 shots on goal plus 12 marks, Brown could not go with him at all, absolutely monstered.
R.12. Again absolutely destroyed by Lynch - 3 goals in the first 40 minutes
R.14. Hogan - 5 shots on goal
R.18. Beaten by a 22 YO, 30 game player

If a defender conceding 4 shots at goal to a key forward in a team that gets flogged is being 'badly beaten', then there are quite a few defenders out there that should be looking for a new job!

Nathan Brown is inconspicuously non influentual. His opponents more often than not might only get half a dozen opportunities and if they beat Nathan on 4 of those occasions, doesn't that mean that he is beaten?

Brown does not judge the flight of the ball as well as some of our younger defenders. Fair enough as a backman your job is to defend and not to mark the footy, but sometimes he not only fails to get any fist on the footy, he can't work out where to best position himself to protect the footy. He's been carried in a way by Geary, Webster, Carlisle, Rice and some of our mids who I've seen crash packs countless times more than he has.

Brown just fails to use his weight and fails to impact enough contests for a guy his size who is supposed to be our Full Back. The thing about guys like Brown is that you don't see them doing anything wrong, because they don't do ANYTHING!! Full stop!!

Nathan looks like a big burly tough guy, but he doesn't play like one. Nathan lacks aggression. Nathan seems like he just does not want the ball at times. Nathan is too nice at times and reminds me a liitle of a backmans version of Rhys Stanley. If he changes his mindset and gets a bit nasty he might be useful next year, but I can't see his overall game changing. I can't see a guy who is going to be creative enough as a backman for us. I think Nathan has achieved as much as he probably already planned to in his AFL life and Richo's plans and the boards plans for finals was the main reason he was recruited. Now that reality bites, surely he will only be given games in 2019 if the younger blokes are injured.

[takeaway]

Okay, here is my take

R.2. Destroyed by Brown in round 2
R.3. Beaten by Walker in round 3 (4 shots on goal)
R.7. Well beaten by McDonald (7 marks - 4 shots on goal)
Didn't really have a viable match-up from round 5 - 9 so shouldn't have played
R.11. Franklin kicked 4 from 8 shots on goal plus 12 marks, Brown could not go with him at all, absolutely monstered.
R.12. Again absolutely destroyed by Lynch - 3 goals in the first 40 minutes
R.14. Hogan - 5 shots on goal
R.18. Beaten by a 22 YO, 30 game player

If a defender conceding 4 shots at goal to a key forward in a team that gets flogged is being 'badly beaten', then there are quite a few defenders out there that should be looking for a new job!

Nathan Brown is inconspicuously non influentual. His opponents more often than not might only get half a dozen opportunities and if they beat Nathan on 4 of those occasions, doesn't that mean that he is beaten?

Brown does not judge the flight of the ball as well as some of our younger defenders. Fair enough as a backman your job is to defend and not to mark the footy, but sometimes he not only fails to get any fist on the footy, he can't work out where to best position himself to protect the footy. He's been carried in a way by Geary, Webster, Carlisle, Rice and some of our mids who I've seen crash packs countless times more than he has.

Brown just fails to use his weight and fails to impact enough contests for a guy his size who is supposed to be our Full Back. The thing about guys like Brown is that you don't see them doing anything wrong, because they don't do ANYTHING!! Full stop!!

Nathan looks like a big burly tough guy, but he doesn't play like one. Nathan lacks aggression. Nathan seems like he just does not want the ball at times. Nathan is too nice at times and reminds me a liitle of a backmans version of Rhys Stanley. If he changes his mindset and gets a bit nasty he might be useful next year, but I can't see his overall game changing. I can't see a guy who is going to be creative enough as a backman for us. I think Nathan has achieved as much as he probably already planned to in his AFL life and Richo's plans and the boards plans for finals was the main reason he was recruited. Now that reality bites, surely he will only be given games in 2019 if the younger blokes are injured.

Disagree with virtually of of above. He has done a good job for us in most of his games this year, and we are a better team with him playing. Also allows Carlisle to to be a bit freer use his intercept marking skills. If the main forward only gets 4 or so shots with the amount of forward entries we have had to cope with this year, pretty good effort by the FB. Be nice if Goddard or Austin come on next year, but I think Brown will get quite a few games.

[rodgerfox]

His opponents more often than not might only get half a dozen opportunities and if they beat Nathan on 4 of those occasions, doesn't that mean that he is beaten?

Our opponents average 54 Inside 50s every week, and the key forward target only gets 6 opportunities??

Given we concede the 3rd most Effective Disposals in the comp, you'd also have to assume that the delivery is not only frequent, it's good.

[Scollop]

Forget about generalising and assuming. You blokes want to take overall team stats and extrapolate that he 'must' be doing a good job. How about assessing each and every game on its merits and assessing the one on one contests between Nathan and his opponent. Not saying he has been terrible in every single game, but he does not provide enough offensively and I can't remember ever seeing him in the best players or thinking that he'd had an outstanding game. Other defenders and other players in the team provide more upside.

I was very critical of the decision to bring him into the line up and I still believe that we are better off giving opportunities to Austin and Goddard going forward. We've also seen a guy like DMac excel with his opportunity lately. Don't you guys get it? If we do a proper rebuild and try and aim to be a top 4 contender in 3-4 years time, then unfortunately some of the older guys need to make way.

We should also play a guy like Brandon White when we line up against teams like the Dogs ( who don't have your typical monster forward ). Let's try and give opportunities to young players to show us if they are worthy of being in a side that has the capability to win 14 or 15 home and away games per year. We were average to mediocre at best in 2016/2017 and apart from the marketing spin that 'we were building something special' there was no tangible evidence to say that we were going to naturally climb the ladder.

In other words, recruiting Nathan Brown for 2017 was not going to improve the side 5 positions on the ladder. Especially considering that Rooy, Dempste and Montagna were in their last year of footy and also due to our number 1 draft pick not showing that he was AFL fit after more than 2 years at the club. We need to reset and plan a mini rebuild from here if we want to be a top 4 contender in 3-4 years time. Every decision should be based around the priority to improve players that will be at their peak in these future years.

[groupie1]

...... plus he has been regularly beaten by his direct opponents this year....

I'm not so sure about that.

Round	Result	Oppo. Inside 50s	Opp. Goal Kickers
R1	Win	49	Charlie Cameron 3
R2	Loss 52 Points	66	Brown 6 (3 Marks)
R3	Loss 49 Points	51	Walker 3 (2 Marks)
R4	Loss 47 Points	62	Hawkins 0 (2 Marks), Menzel 5
R5	Draw	67	Patton 1 (4 Marks)
R6	Loss 35 Points	56	Isaac Smith 4
R7	Loss 39 Points	63	McDonald 2
R8	Loss 30 Points	57	McCarthy 1
R9	Loss 28 Points	55	DeGoey 6
R10	Loss 28 Points	63	Caddy 6	*DNP
R11	Loss 13 Points	44	Kennedy 6	*DNP
R12	Loss 71 Points	49	Franklin 4
R13	Win 2 Points	41	Lynch 3
R14	Win 2 Points	62	Hogan 3	*Injured
R15	Loss 36 Points	67	Dixon 4	*DNP
R16	Win 64 Points	36	Curnow 1	*DNP
R17	Loss 54 Points	52	Reiwoldt 4	*DNP
R18	Loss 25 Points	46	Himmleburg 4 (4 Marks)

Brown kicked 6 in R2, however even with a staggering 66 Inside 50s he only took 3 marks. Aside from that, probably Himmelburg is the only key forward that has got a hold of us whilst Brown has been in the team and he kicked 4 straight from only 4 Marks.
DeGoey was the other one, but he was against Coffield and Geary that night.

I think he's been pretty solid really.

YEAH!!! Stats... Nathan Brown, at worst, was beaten thrice - by one of the best 2 FFs in the game ATM, by Himmleburg, and by one of the best forwards to ever play the game.

Case rested: Brown has been outstanding.

[groupie1]

Forget about generalising and assuming. You blokes want to take overall team stats and extrapolate that he 'must' be doing a good job. How about assessing each and every game on its merits and assessing the one on one contests between Nathan and his opponent. Not saying he has been terrible in every single game, but he does not provide enough offensively and I can't remember ever seeing him in the best players or thinking that he'd had an outstanding game. Other defenders and other players in the team provide more upside.

I was very critical of the decision to bring him into the line up and I still believe that we are better off giving opportunities to Austin and Goddard going forward. We've also seen a guy like DMac excel with his opportunity lately. Don't you guys get it? If we do a proper rebuild and try and aim to be a top 4 contender in 3-4 years time, then unfortunately some of the older guys need to make way.

We should also play a guy like Brandon White when we line up against teams like the Dogs ( who don't have your typical monster forward ). Let's try and give opportunities to young players to show us if they are worthy of being in a side that has the capability to win 14 or 15 home and away games per year. We were average to mediocre at best in 2016/2017 and apart from the marketing spin that 'we were building something special' there was no tangible evidence to say that we were going to naturally climb the ladder.

In other words, recruiting Nathan Brown for 2017 was not going to improve the side 5 positions on the ladder. Especially considering that Rooy, Dempste and Montagna were in their last year of footy and also due to our number 1 draft pick not showing that he was AFL fit after more than 2 years at the club. We need to reset and plan a mini rebuild from here if we want to be a top 4 contender in 3-4 years time. Every decision should be based around the priority to improve players that will be at their peak in these future years.

Mate... I don't think anyone disagrees with giving young blokes a look.... but they need to earn a spot ahead of senior players.... that would be Geary, Gilbert and co, for me, in the backline. Austin comes in even if Brown plays, especially given Roberton's health issues. But you don't play Austin on Hawkins... you give him to 3rd tall role... Brown covers the monsters. I'm totally down for letting the poorer players go, but not always the oldest ones.

[Scollop]

Forget about generalising and assuming. You blokes want to take overall team stats and extrapolate that he 'must' be doing a good job. How about assessing each and every game on its merits and assessing the one on one contests between Nathan and his opponent. Not saying he has been terrible in every single game, but he does not provide enough offensively and I can't remember ever seeing him in the best players or thinking that he'd had an outstanding game. Other defenders and other players in the team provide more upside.

I was very critical of the decision to bring him into the line up and I still believe that we are better off giving opportunities to Austin and Goddard going forward. We've also seen a guy like DMac excel with his opportunity lately. Don't you guys get it? If we do a proper rebuild and try and aim to be a top 4 contender in 3-4 years time, then unfortunately some of the older guys need to make way.

We should also play a guy like Brandon White when we line up against teams like the Dogs ( who don't have your typical monster forward ). Let's try and give opportunities to young players to show us if they are worthy of being in a side that has the capability to win 14 or 15 home and away games per year. We were average to mediocre at best in 2016/2017 and apart from the marketing spin that 'we were building something special' there was no tangible evidence to say that we were going to naturally climb the ladder.

In other words, recruiting Nathan Brown for 2017 was not going to improve the side 5 positions on the ladder. Especially considering that Rooy, Dempste and Montagna were in their last year of footy and also due to our number 1 draft pick not showing that he was AFL fit after more than 2 years at the club. We need to reset and plan a mini rebuild from here if we want to be a top 4 contender in 3-4 years time. Every decision should be based around the priority to improve players that will be at their peak in these future years.

Mate... I don't think anyone disagrees with giving young blokes a look.... but they need to earn a spot ahead of senior players.... that would be Geary, Gilbert and co, for me, in the backline. Austin comes in even if Brown plays, especially given Roberton's health issues. But you don't play Austin on Hawkins... you give him to 3rd tall role... Brown covers the monsters. I'm totally down for letting the poorer players go, but not always the oldest ones.

Sounds logical but is it? If we continue with the same combination of players, logic and common sense tells you we will continue to get the same results.

Give Goddard a go on a few of the number 1 KP Forwards next year or in the next few weeks. Try a combo of Carlisle, Goddard, Austin, Webster, Gears and DMac along with a couple of others in defense coming off the bench like White or Coffield. What have we got to lose? We're not jeopardising our position in the top four or the top 8 are we?

We have everything to gain by trusting in the younger blokes and giving them opportunities. The captain and Jake Carlisle have enough experience to be the senior voices

[groupie1]

Forget about generalising and assuming. You blokes want to take overall team stats and extrapolate that he 'must' be doing a good job. How about assessing each and every game on its merits and assessing the one on one contests between Nathan and his opponent. Not saying he has been terrible in every single game, but he does not provide enough offensively and I can't remember ever seeing him in the best players or thinking that he'd had an outstanding game. Other defenders and other players in the team provide more upside.

I was very critical of the decision to bring him into the line up and I still believe that we are better off giving opportunities to Austin and Goddard going forward. We've also seen a guy like DMac excel with his opportunity lately. Don't you guys get it? If we do a proper rebuild and try and aim to be a top 4 contender in 3-4 years time, then unfortunately some of the older guys need to make way.

We should also play a guy like Brandon White when we line up against teams like the Dogs ( who don't have your typical monster forward ). Let's try and give opportunities to young players to show us if they are worthy of being in a side that has the capability to win 14 or 15 home and away games per year. We were average to mediocre at best in 2016/2017 and apart from the marketing spin that 'we were building something special' there was no tangible evidence to say that we were going to naturally climb the ladder.

In other words, recruiting Nathan Brown for 2017 was not going to improve the side 5 positions on the ladder. Especially considering that Rooy, Dempste and Montagna were in their last year of footy and also due to our number 1 draft pick not showing that he was AFL fit after more than 2 years at the club. We need to reset and plan a mini rebuild from here if we want to be a top 4 contender in 3-4 years time. Every decision should be based around the priority to improve players that will be at their peak in these future years.

Mate... I don't think anyone disagrees with giving young blokes a look.... but they need to earn a spot ahead of senior players.... that would be Geary, Gilbert and co, for me, in the backline. Austin comes in even if Brown plays, especially given Roberton's health issues. But you don't play Austin on Hawkins... you give him to 3rd tall role... Brown covers the monsters. I'm totally down for letting the poorer players go, but not always the oldest ones.

Sounds logical but is it? If we continue with the same combination of players, logic and common sense tells you we will continue to get the same results.

Give Goddard a go on a few of the number 1 KP Forwards next year or in the next few weeks. Try a combo of Carlisle, Goddard, Austin, Webster, Gears and DMac along with a couple of others in defense coming off the bench like White or Coffield. What have we got to lose? We're not jeopardising our position in the top four or the top 8 are we?

We have everything to gain by trusting in the younger blokes and giving them opportunities. The captain and Jake Carlisle have enough experience to be the senior voices

I think there's a fine line here, and it isn't easy. North Melbourne pushed B Harvey out while he was still in their best 22. WE WILL NEVER KNOW but... if he were still playing would they have won one or two more games so far and be established in the 8? Or was it his departure opening an opp. for someone else that made them better this year than last?
If you added Harvey to NM tomorrow... wouldn't they be better?

I don't think Brown is keeping Austin out of the side. If Austin were yet good enough, he'd be playing and Brown'd be in the two's.

I also think if Brown were 26 - playing the same standard as he is now - we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I think you look to move on your bottom 6 (over 21 year-olds). I don't think Brown is in that. (Wright, Geary, Weller, Armitage, Gilbert, Lonie)

[Scollop]

First of all Nathan Brown is not a star player. Fair enough with Boomer or with Nick Riewoldt they got as much out of themselves as they could and I reckon both Saints and Kangas probably gave both players 1-2 more years than most other players would have got. As for Boomer playing this year and it being ' a fine line'...Wrong!!

Did you not realise that he finished at the end of 2016?

He and a lot of the senior players had already peaked. The North Melbourne Football club realised in 2016 that the team line up had performed as well as they coulld and it was highly unlikely that there'd be improvement in Boomer or Dal Santo or Petrie or Spud Firritto. They knew if they stuck with the same line up they were simply delaying the inevitable fall down the ladder and delaying getting valuable game time into their youth.

See this is where a good list management and footy department sees where a team wants to be in the future and makes these calls, rather than just focusing on the now.

Look at how Geelong and Hawthorn have 'pushed out' some players and even their stars over the last 5-6 years. Hodgey had 1-2 left in him. Ling, Stevie J, James Kelly, and others probably had 1-2 left in them. Go back and see the ages that these guys were pushed out of Geelong. They are the benchmark and we wouldn't do too badly following their lead in this area. The policy is thinking about the club first and thinking about sustained opportunities to rejuvinate and improve the list and keep up with the best teams.