Phillips and Brown re-sign

[axcellence]

Nate Brown.
Dear oh dear.

He’ll be playing VFL a lot next year. You know.... insurance.

[fugazi]

Roberton in our top 5 when his heart works properly

[groupie1]

I'm surprised by the view of many on Brown.

He is ahead of all our key defenders (excepting Carlisle) at the moment. The others still have some ground to make before he makes place for them.

Couldn't agree more, mate. I think he has been outstanding for us (ageism is the only explanation as to why anyone wants to see him gone).

[mad saint guy]

I'm not against Brown getting another year to stay as insurance and for certain matchups (Hawkins, Dixon, Jenkins types) but I have a feeling that if he stays fit he's going to play 22 games regardless of how well younger players are performing in the VFL and whether or not there is a suitable match up for him. Don't think Richo can help himself in that regard

[groupie1]

I'm not against Brown getting another year to stay as insurance and for certain matchups (Hawkins, Dixon, Jenkins types) but I have a feeling that if he stays fit he's going to play 22 games regardless of how well younger players are performing in the VFL and whether or not there is a suitable match up for him. Don't think Richo can help himself in that regard

I know where you are coming from in wanting to see Austin and Goddard be developed. But, hopefully there's no Gilbert, and sadly, maybe no Roberton... meaning ample space in the backline for those guys... without having to shoulder the burden of a key forward. We talk abonut selection integrity, and in that vein, Brown is as deserving of an extension as anyone.

[rodgerfox]

'Development' isn't as simple as giving a young guy a game though.

Having an experienced big, strong consistent FB in the team helps with the development of guys like Rice and McKenzie.
And further, if the backline as a whole is solid (by playing Brown for example) then midfielders get better development as a result.

Etc. Etc.

[Spinner]

I'm surprised by the view of many on Brown.

He is ahead of all our key defenders (excepting Carlisle) at the moment. The others still have some ground to make before he makes place for them.

Couldn't agree more, mate. I think he has been outstanding for us (ageism is the only explanation as to why anyone wants to see him gone).

Yep its not the lack of intercept marks and possession.

Absolutely no tricks. Not a modern day FB.

[Cairnsman]

Nathan Brown has been a very good recruit. When he plays we are so much better.

[dragit]

Nate Brown.
Dear oh dear.

He’ll be playing VFL a lot next year. You know.... insurance.

Absolutely nothing we have seen in the last 2 years suggests that Brown will be playing VFL next year, Richo just can't help himself… will choose big muscley mature blokes over skillful youngsters every time.

Austin averaged 20 touches and 8 marks this year but only managed 5 games, if he is rotting in the VFL next year instead of making his way towards 50 games, we are dead set F-ed.

[dragit]

Nathan Brown has been a very good recruit. When he plays we are so much better.

I actually think rounds 10 & 11 without brown were our most promising matches in a long time.

We took it up to the top 2 sides in the comp with the youngest sides picked for about 15 years… not by choice mind you, we were forced by injuries to play kids.

Brown is chronically overrated on here, he wouldn't get a game at any other AFL club.

[Cairnsman]

Nathan Brown has been a very good recruit. When he plays we are so much better.

I actually think rounds 10 & 11 without brown were our most promising matches in a long time.

We took it up to the top 2 sides in the comp with the youngest sides picked for about 15 years… not by choice mind you, we were forced by injuries to play kids.

Brown is chronically overrated on here, he wouldn't get a game at any other AFL club.

I reckon he would be welcome back at his old club with the warmest and most relieved arms for the remainder of this campaign.

[rodgerfox]

Nathan Brown has been a very good recruit. When he plays we are so much better.

I actually think rounds 10 & 11 without brown were our most promising matches in a long time.

We took it up to the top 2 sides in the comp with the youngest sides picked for about 15 years… not by choice mind you, we were forced by injuries to play kids.

Brown is chronically overrated on here, he wouldn't get a game at any other AFL club.

He'd get a game at any club that is badly lacking leadership and seniority.

Would he get a game ideally? No. Of course not. But reality is, we have a chronic leadership and senior group vacuum that is crippling the development of our list. So he's very valuable to us at this point in time.

[dragit]

we have a chronic leadership and senior group vacuum that is crippling the development of our list.

There's certainly no senior vacuum in our backline… in fact playing so many vets is the thing actually crippling our development.

Our current go to back line

Geary 30 YO Brown 29 YO Gilbert 31 YO
Savage 27 YO Carlisle 26 YO Webster/Newnes 25 YO

Average age 28 years.

Is there an older backline getting around in the comp?

Austin - 15 games (5 in 2018)
White - 10 games (6 in 2018)
Goddard - 9 games (last game over 2 years ago)
Clavarino - 0 games

The only way these guys become senior and experienced is by playing at AFL level. We need to invest in these guys now instead of relentlessly playing guys like Brown.


Fun fact.
When we were beaten by top of the table Richmond two weeks ago.
They fielded a younger side on average than us.
They also fielded more players with under 50 games experience.

Not only are we bottom 4 but we are selecting an older, stodgier team than reigning premiers, these are depressing facts.

[saynta]

Sam Fisher started in 2004.

Since then we have had Dempster, Dawson, Delaney, Carlisle and now Brown (and Logan) all from other clubs.

So we have developed just one kpd in 14 years.

f****** disgraceful.

You can't blame the draw or the umpires for that.

Plain f****** disgraceful.

Dawson and Delaney were busts. All the others were more than okay. Logan will be a 100 game player.

[rodgerfox]

we have a chronic leadership and senior group vacuum that is crippling the development of our list.

There's certainly no senior vacuum in our backline… in fact playing so many vets is the thing actually crippling our development.

Our current go to back line

Geary 30 YO Brown 29 YO Gilbert 31 YO
Savage 27 YO Carlisle 26 YO Webster/Newnes 25 YO

Average age 28 years.

Is there an older backline getting around in the comp?

I think you've highlighted the precise issue with our leadership and 'senior group' vacuum. They're no good!

As I've said in an earlier post - generally speaking they're as tough as nails and try their guts out. But they aren't good footballers. The key to a good senior group is not being old, or even necessarily being experienced - it's being 'solid'. Do the basics well. Do you job. Do it consistently.

From the list you put up, only Carlisle and Brown do that. Geary, Gilbert, Savage, Webster and Newnes all slaughter the ball and turn it over. This puts enormous pressure on the younger guys around them, including the younger midfielders that we're trying to develop.

Again, as I said earlier, only Carlisle would get a game ahead of Brown from that list you put up if I was picking a football team.

Austin - 15 games (5 in 2018)
White - 10 games (6 in 2018)
Goddard - 9 games (last game over 2 years ago)
Clavarino - 0 games

The only way these guys become senior and experienced is by playing at AFL level. We need to invest in these guys now instead of relentlessly playing guys like Brown.

Totally disagree. You don't simply get better with experience. That's lazy development. Just giving guys games doesn't develop them. They need to come into a team where possible, that provides guidance and leadership on the field and takes some of the heat off them.

I've said this before also....it's funny how teams with a good senior group seem to develop young players really well. And the ones that don't, don't. Notice how Calrton's young guys looked promising last year when Kreuzer, Murphy, Simpson, Ed Curnow and Gibbs were having terrific seasons? And notice how this year they look pathetic? It's no coincidence.

Even notice how we appeared to have talent on our list when Roo, Joey and Dempster were getting around the club and on the field? And notice how now we don't?

Surely you remember form your playing days how important it was to have god senior guys around you?


Giving young guys games when they don't have support around them can kill them.

We definitely should be exiting a few guys, but Brown is solid and consistent in the way he plays. That's exactly what you want from your senior group. Consistently do the basics well and make life easier for the younger guys.

Fun fact.
When we were beaten by top of the table Richmond two weeks ago.
They fielded a younger side on average than us.
They also fielded more players with under 50 games experience.

Not only are we bottom 4 but we are selecting an older, stodgier team than reigning premiers, these are depressing facts.

Those facts are completely irrelevant. They have no relevance whatsoever to anything.

Averages when it comes to age and games played are just complete nonsense. When you tackle a bloke, the average age of his team makes no difference. When you have a shot for goal, the average of your team mates is irrelevant. When you fly for a make and Alex Rance comes in from the side - if you're a 20yo with 40 games experience, the average age of his team and the average of your team doesn't count for s***.

[dragit]

Average age and games / experience is relevant if you are claiming that we are lacking senior players with experience as a rationale for playing a bog average 30 YO.

I would pick Austin on merit regardless, he looked far better overall down back and we gained a player who wanted the ball.

Alternatively we pump 22 more into brown next year and we still have an inexperienced bloke to replace him sitting on 20 games.

[Cairnsman]

we have a chronic leadership and senior group vacuum that is crippling the development of our list.

There's certainly no senior vacuum in our backline… in fact playing so many vets is the thing actually crippling our development.

Our current go to back line

Geary 30 YO Brown 29 YO Gilbert 31 YO
Savage 27 YO Carlisle 26 YO Webster/Newnes 25 YO

Average age 28 years.

Is there an older backline getting around in the comp?

Austin - 15 games (5 in 2018)
White - 10 games (6 in 2018)
Goddard - 9 games (last game over 2 years ago)
Clavarino - 0 games

The only way these guys become senior and experienced is by playing at AFL level. We need to invest in these guys now instead of relentlessly playing guys like Brown.


Fun fact.
When we were beaten by top of the table Richmond two weeks ago.
They fielded a younger side on average than us.
They also fielded more players with under 50 games experience.

Not only are we bottom 4 but we are selecting an older, stodgier team than reigning premiers, these are depressing facts.

I reckon our backline has held up relatively well this season considering the disruption it's had to overcome. And it's positive to know Robbo might be back next season and Hugh is likely and Coffield will slot in there somewhere. Rice is almost certain to be a permanent fixture down back next year. Hopefully Austin makes it. Brown compliments our development nicely and I hope he can be productive for at least another 2 years for what looks like a nicely building backline.

[saynta]

Fom todays herald sun.


"The Saints today locked away veteran defender Nathan Brown for a 13th AFL season and extended impressive youngster Ed Phillips for two more seasons.

Brown, 29, has been a key member of the Saints’ defence alongside Jake Carlisle since joining the club, with Lethlean saying his importance to the young group has been underrated since crossing from Collingwood.


The only AFL premiership player on St Kilda’s list, the former Magpie finished top 10 in the Saints’ Trevor Barker Medal last season — his first at the club — and was sorely missed when being out for five games this year with knee and hamstring issues.

Lethlean said yesterday Brown, who has been in the system since being drafted by Collingwood in 2006, continued to provide great leadership to the young Saints’ defence.

“You know what you are going to get with Nathan Brown every single week,” Lethlean said. “He regularly plays on the opposition’s best forward and has set a high standard of consistency since joining the Saints at the end of 2016.”

“While not in our leadership group, he is a highly respected member of the playing group and is performing a key role in helping develop our young defenders.”


Certainly a more informed and accurate article about Brown's worth to his young team mates than some of the rubbish posts I have read in this thread.

[Con Gorozidis]

I don't have an individual problem with Nate Brown.
But seriously what we have been doing since 2013 that we are in the situation of fielding a backline with the age profile pointed out by dragit.
A major concern.
Can't just be swept under the rug imo.

Something is crook in Tootgarook.

[Con Gorozidis]

Sam Fisher started in 2004.

Since then we have had Dempster, Dawson, Delaney, Carlisle and now Brown (and Logan) all from other clubs.

So we have developed just one kpd in 14 years.

f****** disgraceful.

You can't blame the draw or the umpires for that.

Plain f****** disgraceful.

Dawson and Delaney were busts. All the others were more than okay. Logan will be a 100 game player.

Dawson played in several winning finals sides. Hardly a bust.
Delaney was 5th in the 2014 B & F.

[Con Gorozidis]

'Development' isn't as simple as giving a young guy a game though.

Having an experienced big, strong consistent FB in the team helps with the development of guys like Rice and McKenzie.
And further, if the backline as a whole is solid (by playing Brown for example) then midfielders get better development as a result.

Etc. Etc.

How is that panning out?
Brown is a good stopper but can't rebound at all.

[saynta]

Sam Fisher started in 2004.

Since then we have had Dempster, Dawson, Delaney, Carlisle and now Brown (and Logan) all from other clubs.

So we have developed just one kpd in 14 years.

f****** disgraceful.

You can't blame the draw or the umpires for that.

Plain f****** disgraceful.

Dawson and Delaney were busts. All the others were more than okay. Logan will be a 100 game player.

Dawson played in several winning finals sides. Hardly a bust.
Delaney was 5th in the 2014 B & F.

Also played in several losing grand finals in one of which he greatly contributed to Geelong's score. He was a bust alright.

Delaney was a poor selection imho.

[rodgerfox]

I don't have an individual problem with Nate Brown.
But seriously what we have been doing since 2013 that we are in the situation of fielding a backline with the age profile pointed out by dragit.
A major concern.
Can't just be swept under the rug imo.

Something is crook in Tootgarook.

Savage shouldn't be playing, and either Gilbert or Geary shouldn't be either. You can't have multiple older guys that put their team mates under pressure constantly with bad disposal and/or bad decision making in the team. It makes life too hard for your the younger guys (and everyone else too!)

So although clearly the coach wants 'experience' down back, unless they're solid players (not stars necessarily, but do the basics well consistently) it will actually stifle the development of younger guys rather than fast track it.

[rodgerfox]

'Development' isn't as simple as giving a young guy a game though.

Having an experienced big, strong consistent FB in the team helps with the development of guys like Rice and McKenzie.
And further, if the backline as a whole is solid (by playing Brown for example) then midfielders get better development as a result.

Etc. Etc.

How is that panning out?
Brown is a good stopper but can't rebound at all.

?

Brown doesn't have to rebound.

[desertsaint]

Nathan Brown has been a very good recruit. When he plays we are so much better.

I actually think rounds 10 & 11 without brown were our most promising matches in a long time.

We took it up to the top 2 sides in the comp with the youngest sides picked for about 15 years… not by choice mind you, we were forced by injuries to play kids.

Brown is chronically overrated on here, he wouldn't get a game at any other AFL club.

He'd get a game at any club that is badly lacking leadership and seniority.

Would he get a game ideally? No. Of course not. But reality is, we have a chronic leadership and senior group vacuum that is crippling the development of our list. So he's very valuable to us at this point in time.

spot on.