Gameplan - Our Downfall

[spert]

We can go on and on about game plans, but the picture is bigger. Sumner and the board have failed, and sent the club in a performance spiral downwards. They appointed a coach who is proven to be sub standard, and should have been replaced by now. We have a slow untalented team. The club is stuffed.

[rodgerfox]

Adam Kingsley has been at the club for 8 years I think.

I've heard a few times in the media that's he's some sort of guru and 'highly regarded', but surely after having been assistant under two different coaches we'd see some evidence on-field to support that what he's bringing to the table is any good.

He's the strategy guy apparently. The tactician. He's the one with the 'great footy brain' I hear in the media.

Given this, I'm assuming he's not in the box for his looks. He clearly has major input into our strategy.

If, and it's a big 'if' as I don't know how the coaching department is structured - Richardson is the communicator, the teacher and the manager, it's possible that he's doing his part quite well. The players seem to like him, and they seem to put their heads over the ball.

And if he's good at translating the message, then surely it's the actual message that is the problem - ie. the strategy itself.

Whoever dreamt up the strategy, needs to go immediately. Our game plan is clearly as confusing to the players as it to the fans. And then there's selection. What is it that the selection panel value? What are the players being told to strive for in order to get a game?
Are we hard nuts who stand for pressure? Then why does Savage play every week? Why does Lonie keep getting picked when he can't stick a tackle?
Are we a fast moving, end to end type team? Then why do we select a slow, low skilled one-paced midfield every week?

Everything on field is just confusing, and contradictory in many ways.

Whomever is responsible for the 'football program' needs to rethink what they value in a footballer, and what is required to get a game of AFL football. Because I don't know what it is that we stand for.

[saintsRrising]

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our game plan.

Though

It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.

So with logic like this if I have a diesel car, if I put petrol in it, it is not my fault that the car will not run but it is the bloody car's for not being able to run on diesel.

So we have a gameplan that the club support staff knows cannot work.
So we have a gameplan that the club coach knows cannot work.

So therefore unless all of our players are all idiots we have a gameplan that the players know cannot work and therefore will have no faith in.

So as I stated in the the OP:

but IMO our gameplan is a key reason for our current lack of competitiveness.

Unfortunately the Saints start the game each week with a deeply flawed and antiquated gameplan that in multiple elements means that our players are having to compete each game with an increased degree of difficulty.


Now a gameplan suited to your list will in itself not make a team a top 4 team. But any team with an appropriate gameplan will be more competitive than it will be with a poor one, and that is my premise in this thread.

Whatever the state of our list whether it be through injury and/or poor list management a coach that addresses the gameplan around its strengths and weaknesses will make them more competitive than if you just try and have them play like they cannot. It is just fantasy stuff to expect them to and Richo's gameplan is built for a team that he does not have (and as already stated is outmoded as well!!).

Richo knows this and T74 knows this. Our playing group will know this as well and it will have gutted and dispirited them.

It is no wonder that we have gone backwards.

Saints Footy? It is all just marketing spiel.

[st.byron]

We could debate the nuance of game plans for neon's but I tend to agree with T74 in that most game plans are similar and sacking the coach and overhauling a game plan should be way down on the list priorities. Get the current list of keepers healthy and keep trying to recruit based on needs is what desperately needs work. Lets see where we are this time next year.

CM they, they being the current coaching and list development group, have had five years and look where we are. Heading for a bottom 3 finish.
I understand your point of view I think, but where is the accountability for performance amongst the coaching staff? The idea that, “ all game plans are pretty much the same” and that the cause of our malaise is the players’ inadequacies absolves Richardson and his staff of any accountability. And if they are not accountable and game plans are all the same, what exactly is their job? I read your strategy as trusting that the current football dept. just needs more time....that the same personnel we have now can turn it around by recruiting based on what desperately needs work. Isn’t that what they’ve been doing for five years? I just don’t believe that Dunstan, Billing’s, Sinclair, Acres, Steele, Newnes, Bruce, Membrey, Webster, ( players hitting the time when they should be developing into quality players) are collectively not up to it. McCartin is another matter - an epic fail by Elshaug. The ship is sinking, waiting to see where we are this time next year with Richardson and the current mob will only send us further beneath the waves.

[rodgerfox]

We can go on and on about game plans, but the picture is bigger. Sumner and the board have failed, and sent the club in a performance spiral downwards. They appointed a coach who is proven to be sub standard, and should have been replaced by now. We have a slow untalented team. The club is stuffed.

I disagree with this.


What do you think sacking the Board will achieve?

[saintsRrising]

As many wish to go off topic:

-Gameplan does not suit the playing list.
-Coaching Panel cannot adequately develop players
- We have very few top end players
-Recruiters are not as able to spot talent as well as the better clubs
-Who we target to recruit has been appalling. The modern game is largely built on midfield dominance and yet the club has not targeted gaining elite mids
-The club has been tried to be too clever in trading with its multi trades that have mainly backfired (ie Saad, Milera, Lee, Hickey etc...we could have just sat back and selected Grundy). So BJ and Dal both exited for no real benefit.
- The Carlisle trade being one of our few trading successes.
- The FAs of Robbo and Membrey has been one of our few pluses
- Too much reliance was placed on freeing up our salary cap to land star FA's when it turns out that star FA's do not swap clubs for $$$ alone. Carlisle being our sole $$$ pickup and he was a trade and not FA.

Recent times have seen numbers men like Bains (fled to a non-football operations role) calling the shots rather than people with a real understanding of football. Managing our list has been built around trying to be too clever rather than on acquiring and developing true talent.

Yes the club were unlucky to have early picks in two soft drafts. However the club knowingly decided to rebuild with youth in an era when they knew that the GWS and Suns concessions had denuded the talent available.

Don't mention Hardwick

Some say to keep Richo due to Hardwick. But they are ignore that Hardwick had actually improved the Tigers in his first three years there.

Our club is now in a parlous state. Yes a poor injury run has made us worse this season, but injuries alone are not the reason why we are so far off the pace.

We need to:
- exit Richo (he has had ample time to prove if he was up to it, and despite the poor recruiting he is not). Indeed the Coaching Panel as a whole needs a massive overhaul.
- improve our recruiters
- secure two elite mids

But knowing what we need is way different to actually doing it. Unfortunately at present I am not sure our club can.

However equally the club's current head in the sand, she '' be right attitude" is frightening.

So it at present seems to all be down to Lethlean to pull a magic rabbit out of the hat with his review of the club that he is currently performing. That Lethlean's background is more in business and the law rather than in actual football knowledge does not inspire me with great confidence. But I am hoping like hell that he can.

[spert]

We can go on and on about game plans, but the picture is bigger. Sumner and the board have failed, and sent the club in a performance spiral downwards. They appointed a coach who is proven to be sub standard, and should have been replaced by now. We have a slow untalented team. The club is stuffed.

I disagree with this.


What do you think sacking the Board will achieve?

The end result of their current tenure is failure..they direct the club, and they have made a meal of it. The club's "brand" for want of a better word, has progressively weakened to the point of probably not being a destination club for possible big name players- or sponsors. There seems to have been a push for stability at the cost of all else, but instead it has bred mediocrity and weakness.

[rodgerfox]

We can go on and on about game plans, but the picture is bigger. Sumner and the board have failed, and sent the club in a performance spiral downwards. They appointed a coach who is proven to be sub standard, and should have been replaced by now. We have a slow untalented team. The club is stuffed.

I disagree with this.


What do you think sacking the Board will achieve?

The end result of their current tenure is failure..they direct the club, and they have made a meal of it. The club's "brand" for want of a better word, has progressively weakened to the point of probably not being a destination club for possible big name players- or sponsors. There seems to have been a push for stability at the cost of all else, but instead it has bred mediocrity and weakness.

But Boards don't run organisations.

They determine the high level strategy and direction, then appoint a CEO to carry it out. Basically.

The only thing that the Board has glaringly done wrong, I'd have thought, is to support the CEO's decision to extend the coach's contract.


I could be missing something, but what else have they done wrong?

[MC Gusto]

Richo has to go

He just has to. We are going nowhere under his leadership. Sorry but 5 years is enough

[bigcarl]

It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

If that is the way the coaches are thinking, it’s a lame cop out, not to mention self-defeatist.

Their job is to get the best out of what they have got and I don’t think they’ve gone anywhere near that.

Effectively the same list was able to win half its matches last season and to be competitive most weeks. Why have the wheels fallen off?

The list isn’t perfect, by any means, but there is talent there that is not being realised.

[Saintmatt]

We can go on and on about game plans, but the picture is bigger. Sumner and the board have failed, and sent the club in a performance spiral downwards. They appointed a coach who is proven to be sub standard, and should have been replaced by now. We have a slow untalented team. The club is stuffed.

I disagree with this.


What do you think sacking the Board will achieve?

The end result of their current tenure is failure..they direct the club, and they have made a meal of it. The club's "brand" for want of a better word, has progressively weakened to the point of probably not being a destination club for possible big name players- or sponsors. There seems to have been a push for stability at the cost of all else, but instead it has bred mediocrity and weakness.

But Boards don't run organisations.

They determine the high level strategy and direction, then appoint a CEO to carry it out. Basically.

The only thing that the Board has glaringly done wrong, I'd have thought, is to support the CEO's decision to extend the coach's contract.


I could be missing something, but what else have they done wrong?

I agree RF - Boards don't 'run' organisations. Not in Corporates anyway. However, I think the issue with our board is that (a) any early move on the Coach is tantamount to the Board admitting they got the 2 year extension glaringly wrong and hence, would have to resign en masse should that occur; and (b) the CEO (who does run the club) - who presumably recommended the extension to the board - is also part of our 10-person board so, there'd have to be a large element of (self) acknowledgement of failure there too.

It's a bit of a clusterfvck all 'round.

Either way - I can't logically see how this board could make an objective decision on the coach right now (for better or worse) when they have their reputations on the line. As Paul Keating said "... always back self-interest — at least you know it's trying"

[Cairnsman]

Anyway unless the wheels fall off completely in the next five rounds we should be able to revisit this thread in 12 months time and see how we've gone with Richo and his game plan and hopefully a healthy list and some continuity from the same or nearly the same group of players running out each week.

Oh and possibly a restructured footy department with new recruiters and assistant coaches, tweaking and not freaking may win the race.

[Impatient Sainter]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it. Of course there are always tweaks and exceptions but they are all very similar. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our game plan. When we play a team whose pressure and commitment is a few percent off we look confident and fluent. When we play a team who apply pressure and run we often hesitate. When we play a team right on top of their game we look totally out classed.
It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

I disagree Tony.

Our midfield, stoppage & general play systems are very ordinary. When we win the ball we consistently handball short distances backwards or sideways to stationary players which invites pressure. Then the pressured player is forced to kick under pressure. This happens even if we win the ball with a clear run forward.

If every player receiving the ball first instinct was to move with the ball to create space and draw tacklers eg Richmond it might work, but they havent been trained well enough for that to occur. Our players seem to be tackle averse and want to play touch footy which again just passes the pressure to a team mate.

He cant blame the players for that or their lack of skills that is something that is trained and improved on the track. Its the systems and lack of quality training expectations that are letting the players down - nothing else!

The plan might be similar but the quality of teaching and coaching is way short of a competitive level IMO.

[st.byron]

It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

If that is the way the coaches are thinking, it’s a lame cop out, not to mention self-defeatist.

Their job is to get the best out of what they have got and I don’t think they’ve gone anywhere near that.

Effectively the same list was able to win half its matches last season and to be competitive most weeks. Why have the wheels fallen off?

The list isn’t perfect, by any means, but there is talent there that is not being realised.

Exactly. Lame cop out sums it up perfectly. If I was less polite I’d have a massive serve for T74. Disgraceful. Disappointing. Astonishing that people within the football dept can hold this view. And if t is a widely held view within the club it points to a divided, unhappy club and uninspired, disheartened playing group. And that ladies and gentlemen....is how they’re playing. We are suffering from a complete lack of leadership.

[Gershwin]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it. Of course there are always tweaks and exceptions but they are all very similar. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our game plan. When we play a team whose pressure and commitment is a few percent off we look confident and fluent. When we play a team who apply pressure and run we often hesitate. When we play a team right on top of their game we look totally out classed.
It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

Had dinner with a ITK a couple of weeks ago and he said exactly the same thing. The players are just not good enough.

[spert]

We can go on and on about game plans, but the picture is bigger. Sumner and the board have failed, and sent the club in a performance spiral downwards. They appointed a coach who is proven to be sub standard, and should have been replaced by now. We have a slow untalented team. The club is stuffed.

I disagree with this.


What do you think sacking the Board will achieve?

The end result of their current tenure is failure..they direct the club, and they have made a meal of it. The club's "brand" for want of a better word, has progressively weakened to the point of probably not being a destination club for possible big name players- or sponsors. There seems to have been a push for stability at the cost of all else, but instead it has bred mediocrity and weakness.

But Boards don't run organisations.

They determine the high level strategy and direction, then appoint a CEO to carry it out. Basically.

The only thing that the Board has glaringly done wrong, I'd have thought, is to support the CEO's decision to extend the coach's contract.


I could be missing something, but what else have they done wrong?

Don't worry, I know a little about boards.. however they must accept ultimate responsibility when their directions and appointments to carry this out, have failed. They have gotten off lightly so far.

[Moods]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it. Of course there are always tweaks and exceptions but they are all very similar. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our game plan. When we play a team whose pressure and commitment is a few percent off we look confident and fluent. When we play a team who apply pressure and run we often hesitate. When we play a team right on top of their game we look totally out classed.
It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

Had dinner with a ITK a couple of weeks ago and he said exactly the same thing. The players are just not good enough.

Well then, they've changed their tune from the start of the year when it just a case of everything clicking. The players were just lacking confidence and the just needed a couple of things to go their way early in a game and suddenly we would be fine. That was the start of the year prognosis to our problems. Now it's, we're just not good enough. The players are crap. No game plan in the world will help them.....

That may well be the case (the players aren't the highest quality) but I look at a team like the hawks who have been hit with injuries to key players like Mcevoy, Burgoyne, Rioli
etc. they have a lot of 1st and 2nd year players playing atm. They also have a coach who keeps them competitive. I look at the Kangaroos who were widely tipped to be where we are this year. Their list is nothing special. I'm loathe to compliment Brad Scott, but he has them playing the way they want to most weeks and they have been competitive this year. From what I'm hearing both Scott brothers are well regarded in the industry. A better game plan, better coach isn't going to turn us into a premiership team, maybe not even a finals team. But at the moment we're a rabble. Once we start being competitive against the top teams and semi regularly knock off teams below and around us, we start to see the development of the young players and we get HOPE! That's all i'm looking for. A bit of hope, something to work with. We see glimpses of it but to be honest the 'positives' thread that regularly occurs after each game is grasping at straws. Like when we tell ourselves that in a a couple of years Paddy will be really good. That Billings is about to hit his peak. That Hunter Clarke looks like a future gun (despite his fumbling a poor decision making costing us goals Friday night) All these young players may well be very good players, but not with this current regime in charge. They will show glimpses. Guys like Dunstan, who looked like he was showing something at the start of the year once he finally got a game, Marshall, Battle, may consistently show that they are AFL players.

As far as I can tell the only player consistently doing it right now is Gresham.

[cwrcyn]

Okay, so who are the players who ARE good enough? I'd say...Gresham, Carlisle, Ross, Steven, Roberton, Bruce, Webster, Membrey. You could argue a case for Geary, Acres, and Billings. Clark and Coffield will join this list soon. That gives us a base of 13 players

Of the players who have played more than 50 games, these players are average battlers who will never be more than B-graders. They are filling positions until someone else better turns up: Dunstan, Newnes, Savage, Longer, Hickey, Weller. Sinclair and Steele are okay, but have weaknesses in their games. They still have a chance to improve.

I don't include Brown, Armitage, and Gilbert, because they won't be around pretty soon.

Of the remaining players who have been on the list for more than three years, Wright and Lonie will not make it, and Goddard looks quite unlikely. Minchington and Freeman have been injured.

After that, its a host of young players who are in the infancy of their careers. Austin, Rice, Mckenzie, Paton, Clavarino, Langlands, White, Long, Phillips, Battle, and the Irishmen.


Even if half the youngsters (apart form Coffield and Clark) make it, we're still well short of quality. The rucks and midfield are our biggest weaknesses

[cwrcyn]

Was Chris Pelchen the worst thing that happened to us? Nearly all his strategies were a failure. It's HIS failures more than Tony Ehsaug's that have got us into this mess

[MC Gusto]

I agree. Start of the year we were in the 8, pushing top 4, if you listened to our coach and those around him
Then after the disastrous start we were only a game or two away from clicking and the performance returning to levels expected / required of a team that is not far off it / pushing top 8
Now it is a case of the players not being up to it and unable to execute an otherwise perfectly good gameplan- one that is just as good (if not the same) as every other club

What a load of bollocks!

[saintsRrising]

I agree. Start of the year we were in the 8, pushing top 4, if you listened to our coach and those around him
Then after the disastrous start we were only a game or two away from clicking and the performance returning to levels expected / required of a team that is not far off it / pushing top 8
Now it is a case of the players not being up to it and unable to execute an otherwise perfectly good gameplan- one that is just as good (if not the same) as every other club

What a load of bollocks!

Indeed...

This was 30 Sept last year..

We will be top 4 before 2020. Could be next year, could be in 3 years. Then you need a touch of luck. We're due for that.

You know the period when Richo was negotiating his 2 year contract extension.

[To the top]

Where the powers to be did get it right were:-

1 identifying a lack of rebounding class by moving Montagna back - and that assisted Roberton

2 playing Riewoldt in the mid field - as was the case in 2016 and until injury saw Roo unable to so contribute

To me the most telling move was the experience and class of Montagna from defence

We have not replicated that experience, class and rebound because Montagna could run, bounce and deliver long including on goal

And we lost Roberton

Carlisle is an excellent user of the ball - and him setting up Montagna and Roberton improved us

So who has taken the responsibility Montagna and Roberton assumed?

Who does Carlisle’s excellent usage set up for run, carry and disposal?

Then we add the midfield where our emphasis has been big bodies - so there is only Steven who can carry lines

The problem continues to our forward line with Weller and Newnes neither of who are dangerous - which to me at least is the essence of playing forward

So we select blue collar performers

They are not match winners and never will be

We are missing players who can make a difference - Acres, McCartin, Bruce, Roberton and, we trust, the building Freeman

And we have some kids who will continue to improve starting with Coffield, Clark, Billings, Gresham

So, given the return of Roberton in 2019 hopefully, who replicates the run, carry and disposal of Montana?

Who makes us a very dangerous side on the rebound?

And how do we transition to a dangerous mid field - giving support to Steven who has won the number of Club B&F’s he has for a reason

He has no competition at St Kilda (acknowledging that Armitage is a warrior who compliments Steven)

Does a centre line of Freeman, Acres, Billings improve us?

Do Clark, Coffield and White improve our defence and rebounding from defence?

And can Long and Gresham give us the dangerous forwards we require?

Does a structure of Hickey and Marshall, Bruce (where?), Carlisle, Mc Cartin, Battle all available improve us?

And who do we have to support Steven in the mid field and on interchange - to compliment his run and carry?

These are the questions

Plus that Montagna and the way he was used has not been replicated which has accentuated the problem and why Montagna was sent back in the first place

[Jacks Back]

Our game plan should include a rev up before the opening bounce as we are generally rubbish in first quarters?

[saintsRrising]

OK: Exhibit B (For those that mistook my OP as being about Richmond which it was not). St Kilda v Dogs.

We play a team in arguably worse form than us, with at least as many injuries us BUT who play a modern direct gameplan.

A team that is younger and less experienced.

Result was the Doggies ripped through us like an iceberg ripping through the Titanic and long-term this loss could be just as tragic. It may have sunk the Saints.

First quarter the cracks were masked as the Doggies missed a lot of easy shots of goals giving us an illusory lead as we were accurate.

After that our short handball, go backwards/sideways gameplan just made things worse and worse as the Doggies started to hit more targets, move the ball even quicker, and kick at goal more accurately. They ran free while we stopped the game with our constant overuse of the switch including backwards movement.


Result:
Doggies= How good is this. Another training drill.
St Kilda= Players become more frustrated and panicked. Many seem to have given up.

[BenLong#21]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it. Of course there are always tweaks and exceptions but they are all very similar. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our game plan. When we play a team whose pressure and commitment is a few percent off we look confident and fluent. When we play a team who apply pressure and run we often hesitate. When we play a team right on top of their game we look totally out classed.
It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

Had dinner with a ITK a couple of weeks ago and he said exactly the same thing. The players are just not good enough.

By ITKs do you mean objective or Richo disciples looking to save their own reputations?