Gameplan - Our Downfall

[saintsRrising]

, Friday nights game was played by two teams at opposite ends of the cycle. Boys versus men, surely the pundit sees that?, aren't we reading way too much into it

You have misread the OP. It was not about JUST this last game, but our entire season.


So it is not just the Tigers match. The match did drive home what has been evident all season, but which gets ignored due to scraping home in a few games when the opponents were poor.

[Cairnsman]

, Friday nights game was played by two teams at opposite ends of the cycle. Boys versus men, surely the pundit sees that?, aren't we reading way too much into it

You have misread the OP. It was not about JUST this last game, but our entire season.


So it is not just the Tigers match. The match did drive home what has been evident all season, but which gets ignored due to scraping home in a few games when the opponents were poor.

Yeah get that, but what were you thinking in 2016 when we came from the clouds and nearly pinched a finals berth, and then again in 2017 when we only missed out on getting as high as 7th by a game and percentage? Clearly expectation came off the back of the 16 and 17 seasons and clearly it was overstated. I'd still suggest that had we had a little luck in the injury department that we possibly would have performed better.

Prior to this season we were tracking nicely, albeit a team still in need of a little more high end talent, a little more development, not only in the physical conditioning department, but also consistency as a team and in hindsight it was crucial that we had a bit of luck in the injury department so the nucleus of the team could run out together most weeks to develop cohesion.

I just think it would be an overreaction to make drastic changes because of how this season has panned out. Clearly a lot went right in 2016 and 2017, if this time next year we have performed similarly to this year then sure, pull the big lever.

[saintsRrising]

I'd still suggest that had we had a little luck in the injury department that we possibly would have performed better.

Yes clearly we would have gone better with a better injury run.. BUT again this thread is on the gameplan, not on recruiting, not on our inability to land a star FA, nor player development...nor on our injury run including the ability of our medical team to have punctured Carlisles lung so that he missed a game.

However IMO our current gameplan would still have resulted in us not achieving us much as we could have.

So let me ask you this question to get back on the thread's topic. Are you happy with our current gameplan and do you believe that that it maximises our competitiveness?



I want the Saints to improve. I believe a better gameplan would assist in this. Though IMO gameplan is part of the problem, but unfortunately it is not our only problem.

[Enrico_Misso]

Setting up with a five man forward line fails every time, yet we continue with it. It's especially useless because of our slow ball movement from half back and our poor skills when kicking to inside 50 targets. The opposition mops up with glee. We also have this situation around the ball where all our mids are clustered in a narrow radius around the ball. No point having three or four players trying to get the football. When one of them does, he handballs it to a guy standing next to him. There is no wide receiver, so it's a clumsy scramble or back-pedal to try to find space. Hence, there is no quick release and forward momentum from any stoppage. The other thing that is beyond comprehension, is how we crowd our own forward line at stoppages within our forward 50, obviously believing it's all about numbers. There are rarely players sitting outside 50 to stop the opposition streaming out and linking up. The number of goals we get scored against us like this is embarrassing. It was interesting watching Richmond yesterday. Their players moved in formation, like jets at an airshow. Over a 50 to 70 metre range the formation was held, with no player lagging behind or breaking the formation. Every player knew exactly where their team mate was and there was absolutely no hesitation in their decision making because of it. Conversely, our players were haphazard in the same situation, with players lagging behind, two or three players within 10 metres of each other, leaving heap of space either side. Once Richmond won possession, there were huge holes they could work through. There was one incredible moment in the first quarter, when McIntosh was running along the boundary line at right half back, with 5 of our players tracking him, all with 10 metres of him. Now, my maths isn't PhD level, but when you have 5 players tracking a single running player, doesn't that mean we are outnumbered by four players in the rest of the field? The comical and tragic thing was that none of the payers tracking McIntosh could catch him. Once the ball was kicked forward, we were hopelessly outnumbered and our defenders had no chance. Goal

Wow, what a paragraph!

But forcing myself to plough through it - it is sadly 100% correct.

Another thing was the Richmond guys ran hard to provide uncontested marking options much more often than we did, or alternatively we were too lazy to pick them up.

And when we couldn't find a loose man we kicked to a contest where we were outnumbered 2 to 1 or 3 to 1, and I swear there was a kick on the city flank where of the 6 closest players to the ball drop 5 were Tigers.
Why why why do we do that?
At least kick it to a 1 on 1 or load up and kick to a pack in the corridor.

[cwrcyn]

It all comes down to coaching, sadly. There is no visibly clear strategy on ball movement. In most games we only get two or three passages of play from half back into our forward line that look cohesive and fluent. Our opposition, however, will do it 20 times, at least.

[rodgerfox]

It all comes down to coaching, sadly. There is no visibly clear strategy on ball movement. In most games we only get two or three passages of play from half back into our forward line that look cohesive and fluent. Our opposition, however, will do it 20 times, at least.

Totally agree.

I don't think there's a need to board the joint up. I think they just need to completely fix up the strategy side of our coaching.

Whomever dreamt up our game plan and method, and 'football program' simply needs to admit they got it completely wrong and piss off.

[rodgerfox]

Yeah get that, but what were you thinking in 2016 when we came from the clouds and nearly pinched a finals berth, and then again in 2017 when we only missed out on getting as high as 7th by a game ....

You know what I was thinking?

I was thinking that we have no game plan, and are just getting by on individual acts and defensive 'pressure'.

And, until we add some method to our madness, we'll be easy to beat.

I thought we had an outdated 'bomb it in' offensive strategy that was last effective about 10 years ago. I felt what unless that was fixed, we'd be rooted.

I felt that once the opposition worked out that Roberton was our only way out of defence, we'd be rooted.

I felt that once Riewoldt was no longer providing the 'get out' kick from defence, if we couldn't replace him we'd be rooted.

[freely]

thought it was a bit sad Richo saying they spent most of the aftergame talking about how Richmond played. I would have thought that makes sense if we were the under-13s - but surely we should have our own game plan by now, not copy theirs. We should be figuring out how to beat them not how to be as good as them.

[Cairnsman]

I'd still suggest that had we had a little luck in the injury department that we possibly would have performed better.

Yes clearly we would have gone better with a better injury run.. BUT again this thread is on the gameplan, not on recruiting, not on our inability to land a star FA, nor player development...nor on our injury run including the ability of our medical team to have punctured Carlisles lung so that he missed a game.

However IMO our current gameplan would still have resulted in us not achieving us much as we could have.

So let me ask you this question to get back on the thread's topic. Are you happy with our current gameplan and do you believe that that it maximises our competitiveness?



I want the Saints to improve. I believe a better gameplan would assist in this. Though IMO gameplan is part of the problem, but unfortunately is not our only problem.

So our game plan helped us rise very quickly in 2016 and 2017, and by your logic and reasoning our game plan is outdated by 5 years, and as such it's the reason we haven't achieved much more than we have this year? so not much more than 4.5 games, so sticking to a game plan from 5 years ago has forced us backwards by 6 to 8 games. Have I got your line of thinking right there SR?

[older saint]

I suppose the question is , is Richo a coach who can take a team from poor to average but does he have the ability to make the next step to quality team. Injuries have hurt but game plan is either poor or players don't execute - but seem to remain in the team. Whoever came up with the strategy to handball first against Richmond needs there head read they live off pressure , handball away form the contest not at the contest

[saintsRrising]

So our game plan helped us rise very quickly in 2016 and 2017,

Err what???

You do understand that:

1/ The Saints do not exist in a vacuum?
2/ That we have to play an opponent
3/ That opposition coaches know what we intend to do and know how to counter it
4/ Opposition teams have evolved their gameplans


But hey we won the flag in 1966 and so lets role out in 2019 how we played back then. We must be guaranteed for a second flag if we play like that again.

and by your logic and reasoning our game plan is outdated by 5 years,

Correct

and as such it's the reason we haven't achieved much more than we have this year?

Which part of the very first line in my OP do you not understand?
Success comes from doing many things well. At present I think the Saints are doing a number of things poorly and I will not go into those other factors in this post, but IMO our gameplan is a key reason for our current lack of competitiveness.

Have I got your line of thinking right there SR?

No not at all.

[tony74]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it. Of course there are always tweaks and exceptions but they are all very similar. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our game plan. When we play a team whose pressure and commitment is a few percent off we look confident and fluent. When we play a team who apply pressure and run we often hesitate. When we play a team right on top of their game we look totally out classed.
It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

[rodgerfox]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it. Of course there are always tweaks and exceptions but they are all very similar. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our game plan. When we play a team whose pressure and commitment is a few percent off we look confident and fluent. When we play a team who apply pressure and run we often hesitate. When we play a team right on top of their game we look totally out classed.
It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

I disagree.

Even when we 'look good' - I still don't think we look good.

We haven't looked good once in the past 5 years, aside from the first half against Richmond last year.

[Con Gorozidis]

Richo is still trying to copy the Dogs game plan from two years.

Meanwhile the Tiges are on Tigers 2.0 and the Giants are about to start unleashing a whole new burst.

[Cairnsman]

So our game plan helped us rise very quickly in 2016 and 2017,

Err what???

You do understand that:

1/ The Saints do not exist in a vacuum?
2/ That we have to play an opponent
3/ That opposition coaches know what we intend to do and know how to counter it
4/ Opposition teams have evolved their gameplans


But hey we won the flag in 1966 and so lets role out in 2019 how we played back then. We must be guaranteed for a second flag if we play like that again.

and by your logic and reasoning our game plan is outdated by 5 years,

Correct

and as such it's the reason we haven't achieved much more than we have this year?

Which part of the very first line in my OP do you not understand?
Success comes from doing many things well. At present I think the Saints are doing a number of things poorly and I will not go into those other factors in this post, but IMO our gameplan is a key reason for our current lack of competitiveness.

Have I got your line of thinking right there SR?

No not at all.

The game plan is way down on the list of things that need improving at this point in time IMO. Get a healthy list and top up with a bit more talent and then start finessing the game plan.

How one can claim to objectively quantify a game plan is 5 years old and also claim is key evidence to lack of competitiveness is difficult to agree with.

[Cairnsman]

T74 claims that every teams game plan is pretty similar.

SR agree or disagree?

[st.byron]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it. Of course there are always tweaks and exceptions but they are all very similar. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our game plan. When we play a team whose pressure and commitment is a few percent off we look confident and fluent. When we play a team who apply pressure and run we often hesitate. When we play a team right on top of their game we look totally out classed.
It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

What cloud are you living on? “ ......we look confident and fluent.” How many times this year have we looked confident and fluent? I can count them on one hand and still have a finger or two spare.
And here you are again blaming the players. As I posted in response to you much earlier in the year, if your attitude represents a widely held view in the club, we are going nowhere, completely stuffed....blaming the players whilst completely absolving Richardson and the board of any responsibility or accountability. It’s head buried in the ground stuff. Laughable if it wasn’t so bloody disappointing.
He has had five years with this cohort and so many of our young guys are going backwards. The sooner Richardson and the current President piss off the better. You’re like a manager blaming the staff for poor performance, the very epitome of a complete absence of leadership. Maybe, wherever it is you sit in the club hierarchy, you’ve swallowed the bath water Summers, Richardson and the spin meisters have been trotting out, but if the view you have expressed represents a widely held view within the club, then it must be an unhappy, divided place. Employees blaming others for ratshit performances.....that itself is a trait of rotten leadership in any organisation. We really need root and branch change. With the current leaders (sic) we are farked.

[Teflon]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it. Of course there are always tweaks and exceptions but they are all very similar. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our game plan. When we play a team whose pressure and commitment is a few percent off we look confident and fluent. When we play a team who apply pressure and run we often hesitate. When we play a team right on top of their game we look totally out classed.
It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

What cloud are you living on? “ ......we look confident and fluent.” How many times this year have we looked confident and fluent? I can count them on one hand and still have a finger or two spare.
And here you are again blaming the players. As I posted in response to you much earlier in the year, if your attitude represents a widely held view in the club, we are going nowhere, completely stuffed....blaming the players whilst completely absolving Richardson and the board of any responsibility or accountability. It’s head buried in the ground stuff. Laughable if it wasn’t so bloody disappointing.
He has had five years with this cohort and so many of our young guys are going backwards. The sooner Richardson and the current President piss off the better. You’re like a manager blaming the staff for poor performance, the very epitome of a complete absence of leadership. Maybe, wherever it is you sit in the club hierarchy, you’ve swallowed the bath water Summers, Richardson and the spin meisters have been trotting out, but if the view you have expressed represents a widely held view within the club, then it must be an unhappy, divided place. Employees blaming others for ratshit performances.....that itself is a trait of rotten leadership in any organisation. We really need root and branch change. With the current leaders (sic) we are farked.

Well said Sb
Of course new quality players would be lovely and is needed but even against Carlton, take away their pathetic effort, we didn’t look fluent or confident - honestly watch that game at times it just missed Benny hill music
How often this year do we handball backwards to static players or go sideways when a kick forward is what’s needed we are just not organised and I think players look confused
Call it game plan call it failure to get a message across after 5 years but it most certainly IS coaching related
The board know it. They also know they must go if they admit they stuffed up and a big payout looms for Alan
This is the test for Lethlean - if he buys the boards spin (and I think he is) we have 2 more years of this under Alan to look forward to - I truly fear the damage it will do our club.

[parkeysainter]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it. Of course there are always tweaks and exceptions but they are all very similar. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with our game plan. When we play a team whose pressure and commitment is a few percent off we look confident and fluent. When we play a team who apply pressure and run we often hesitate. When we play a team right on top of their game we look totally out classed.
It’s not the game plan, it’s the quality of our players. To execute under extreme pressure. The team is just not up to it.
The honest truth is no coach or coaching panel could turn this team around this year, We’re just not good enough.

Good post. We just don't have the cattle at the minute. Some of the cattle has been missing all year and alot of the younger cattle aren't fully grown yet. It was on display against Richmond. Plus some of our older cattle are just good battlers.

[saintsRrising]

T74 claims that every teams game plan is pretty similar.

SR agree or disagree?

Anyone that thinks that the Saints and Tigers gameplans are the same has no idea.

TIP: Just to start, take a peak at the make up and structure of the Tiger's forward line.

[To the top]

Acknowledging that we are currently missing some players who are automatic selections when fit and available, but who apart from Number 3 do we have who can break lines with either leg speed (which Number 3 has) or the ability to dispose by foot over 50 or 60 meters?

Who do we have who can win the ball in a contest and put it to team advantage on the outside (and I will open a hornet’s nest by saying that, from a screen, our most effective contested ball disposer is Hickey who is clean and finds a viable option)?

We have the same game plan as every other side - win the ball and use it to advantage and when you do not have it harass to force error and turn over

Currently we are the harsssed being forced inyo turnovers

We lack leg speed and, by extension we lack line breakers

We also do not have long kicks

And, of course, we do not have a core of experienced players in the upper echelons of AFL performers

FA was set up by the Cartel of Clubs which dictate the AFL so we can not place any expectation on a FA

Look at who we are told the Gold Coast Captain is transferring to - the big supporter, big money AFL Cartel sides

So we have to hold together those we have Drafted with high end Draft Picks over recent seasons - and support and encourage them

And be patient until they gain the required experience and have the support of the likes of Coffield and Clark and who comes at the end of this year and next

And have them replace who they need to replace - those who lack leg speed and those who can only chip a ball 40 metres by foot with up and under disposal

So we are playing the game in the area of the field we want to play it in - in our attaching zone because the more it is there the better the chances are that you are going to score and not your Opposition

You look at Armitage and Ross and Steele and Dunstan as our mid field rotations

Then you get to Weller and Newnes and Geary

I, for one, do not rate “lock down” or “role players” because what that tells me is the team is not up to standard hence we are compromised in terms of contribution to the game of football before we even start - we are incentive and defining contributors down to start with making it easy for our opposition

Coaching - needs to be consistent with opportunity and patience because the core they work with are high end Draft picks

Selection - same as coaching

We can not revisit Polo and Birss and Peake and Gardiner from Geelong and those misappropriated decisions which included other like players being bought to St Kilda

We start from where we are in 2018

[saintsRrising]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it.

Well there you go. According to T74 all Richo does is sit back and try and ape the past and other coaches.

No wonder we are going backwards. Stagnating while other teams evolve.

AFL has always been a game that keeps evolving and where good coaches find an edge. The approach endorsed here by T74 is a recipe for mediocrity.

Under a coach like Richo there would never have been given birth to a Pagan's Paddock, or a Clarko's Cluster or a Forward Press.


The Doggies gameplan only gave them an edge for one season, but that snagged them a flag.

[Jacks Back]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it.

Well there you go. According to T74 all Richo does is sit back and try and ape the past and other coaches.

No wonder we are going backwards. Stagnating while other teams evolve.

AFL has always been a game that keeps evolving and where good coaches find an edge. The approach endorsed here by T74 is a recipe for mediocrity.

Under a coach like Richo there would never have been given birth to a Pagan's Paddock, or a Clarko's Cluster or a Forward Press.


The Doggies gameplan only gave them an edge for one season, but that snagged them a flag.

Innovate not replicate

[st.byron]

Realistically every teams game plan is pretty similar. They all follow the teams that have success the previous year and basically try to copy it.

Well there you go. According to T74 all Richo does is sit back and try and ape the past and other coaches.

No wonder we are going backwards. Stagnating while other teams evolve.

AFL has always been a game that keeps evolving and where good coaches find an edge. The approach endorsed here by T74 is a recipe for mediocrity.

Under a coach like Richo there would never have been given birth to a Pagan's Paddock, or a Clarko's Cluster or a Forward Press.


The Doggies gameplan only gave them an edge for one season, but that snagged them a flag.

Just makes me shake my head in disbelief. All game plans are the same....so what does the coach actually do? And it’s all the players fault. Last year when we were making a run towards finals, the players weren’t rubbish....but suddenly, since the Richmond game last year, they have become, “not up to it”...... and it has absolutely zero to do with the coach. Nothing. Zip. No relationship between how they are coached and their performance. Have been grateful at times for Tony74’s input, but this head in the sand lack of leadership accountbility is taking us backwards fast.

[Cairnsman]

T74 claims that every teams game plan is pretty similar.

SR agree or disagree?

Anyone that thinks that the Saints and Tigers gameplans are the same has no idea.

TIP: Just to start, take a peak at the make up and structure of the Tiger's forward line.

Just focusing on one aspect of what you believe is our game plan, the 'bomb', do you think the players are instructed to 'bomb' it as the first option?

And if you believe the bomb is also part of the Tigers game plan, with the only difference being their makeup and structure, then aren't you acknowledging the game plans are similar in that part of the ground and really it is only the difference in player type/ability and execution that is the different?

I think the game plan for most clubs is quick ball movement which invites/encourages the risk of bringing the ball in through the middle of the ground which then allows the forwards to spread the defence and in the first option get a forward on the lead and if the ball does come to ground then the bulk of players in the middle of the ground have less ground to cover to the get to the drop of the ball and then wind on the forward pressure, lock it in, create a scoring opportunity from a stoppage. Richmond execute it so well because of the where they are in the premiership cycle.

We did it really well against Melbourne, it was proof of what is trying to be achieved IMO.

I disagree option number one of the game plan is to bomb it into the forward line. It's just looked that way a lot this year because of poor execution and a slow and stodgy mechanism into F50. Bombing, aka kicking to a contest is plan B for most clubs I'm guessing however in the case of Richmond, plan B really works well for them because their 'forward pressure' is elite, why is it elite, well isn't it because of where their players are in the premiership cycle.

We could debate the nuance of game plans for neon's but I tend to agree with T74 in that most game plans are similar and sacking the coach and overhauling a game plan should be way down on the list priorities. Get the current list of keepers healthy and keep trying to recruit based on needs is what desperately needs work. Lets see where we are this time next year.