According to Richo we may look for an Experience leader

[Con Gorozidis]

Richo has been using language to shift blame from himself and on to the playing group all year.

I'm amazed he has gotten away with it.

[Impatient Sainter]

Just goes to highlight how little faith Richo has in the younger players coming thru and other staff at the club. The guy is an absolute fcukwit and the sooner we get rid of him our stakes will start rising.

[takeaway]

Just goes to highlight how little faith Richo has in the younger players coming thru and other staff at the club. The guy is an absolute fcukwit and the sooner we get rid of him our stakes will start rising.

You'll probably have to wait at least a year and a bit. Maybe 3 or 4?

[CQ SAINT]

Oh s***. This is really bad.

Apart from deflecting responsibility, how is this going to make Jarryn and the leadership group feel?

Richo's comments aside, how should they feel?

[Con Gorozidis]

A few weeks back he was saying he was a super coach but the players couldn't execute the genius game plan.

That is why he is stuck on a 35% win record after 5 years.

[SaintPav]

Oh s***. This is really bad.

Apart from deflecting responsibility, how is this going to make Jarryn and the leadership group feel?

Richo's comments aside, how should they feel?

Betrayed

[6621104]

Who?? Hodge has no doubt been great for Brisbane- or so we are told, but Lewis not so for Melbourne. One a true leader, the other a good player with experience.
Is there a Hodge like figure likely available? Not just an experienced cool head but someone with the universally recognised authority to set the standard. Geary is clearly not it,
This is a great opportunity for the current players to sort themselves out, a leader will emerge by seasons end. Trying to manufacture one too often ends in acrimony.
We should be trading for the best players we can get, senior or otherwise.
In my view we should hang tough, kept our draft picks, trade into the draft with sensible options (I have suggested Seb Ross previously) and let the contenders fight over the free agents. We will be a much improved team in 2019 and thus a more attractive option for the available FA's.

[Dambrosio]

This makes a lot of sense. We could kill two birds with one stone with this approach. The only problem is, it's hard to tell who's going to be a good draft pick at this point, no?

[st.byron]

Richo has been using language to shift blame from himself and on to the playing group all year.

I'm amazed he has gotten away with it.

T74 came on here earlier in the year after the first Melbourne game and said,
“ O.K. This will cause a barrage of criticism but it’s the fact. Nothing wrong with the coaches, nothing wrong with the game plan, nothing wrong with team selection. What is fundamentally wrong is the skill level and confidence. It’s deplorable. Absolutely deplorable.”

Straight out blaming the players. I responded at the time that if his attitude reflected a widely held view within the footy dept. and wider club then we are stuffed. And that appears to be the case. Like a Manager blaming the staff for poor performance - the very essence of deflection and lack of leadership. He’s had five years, our woes are the players fault and the answer to our atrocious goal kicking, turnovers, one dimensional game plan, conservative selections, inconsistency and repeated basic errors is to import someone like Hodge.....oh dear. Grasping at straws and zero accountability.

[Cairnsman]

Who?? Hodge has no doubt been great for Brisbane- or so we are told, but Lewis not so for Melbourne. One a true leader, the other a good player with experience.
Is there a Hodge like figure likely available? Not just an experienced cool head but someone with the universally recognised authority to set the standard. Geary is clearly not it,
This is a great opportunity for the current players to sort themselves out, a leader will emerge by seasons end. Trying to manufacture one too often ends in acrimony.
We should be trading for the best players we can get, senior or otherwise.
In my view we should hang tough, kept our draft picks, trade into the draft with sensible options (I have suggested Seb Ross previously) and let the contenders fight over the free agents. We will be a much improved team in 2019 and thus a more attractive option for the available FA's.

I reckon you've nailed it, especially the potential negative impact from manufacturing a leader. That's possibly why only a Hodge or Mitchell type could work, because of thier 'god like' reputation.

I think it also worked for them because the clubs they went to had a clear succession plan which would have helped avoid resentment amongst the players, especially players that had designs on leadership.

By Richo being public about wanting more leadership, is that trying to target or needle certain players on the list as a challenge? Especially that 50 to 100 game group that have been wanting this year at certain stages in games.

Clearly we've lacked players that could step up when there was a run on by the opposition. That's where we missed Roo.

So is it possible to develop those type of leaders from that 50 to 100 bracket. Let's hope they accept the challenge this Friday.

[Cairnsman]

St Byron have you added a little mayo to T74s post, if my memory serves me well he only said confidence was the issue, didn't mention skills, needs checking for accuracy because it changes the context completely.

"You don't lose talent, only confidnence"

I think you'll find that was the context of T74s post.

[saintsRrising]

Let's be honest, there are not many Hodge's available.

So personally I hope the the club does not try and "do a Hodge with us" as most likely we would just end up with a past-it player.

Richo complaining about lack of leadership? Seriously can he please look in the mirror for the cause? He has had FIVE years to address this.

Looking for "our" Hodge smacks of a quick fix solution that will be unlikely to pay off.

If I have come to one conclusion recently it is that short-cut solutions do not work.

The Saints wanted to fast track by encouraging Goddard and Dal to go to gain more picks, but then squandered this with too many multi-pick/player trades that as a whole did not pay off. ie Milara, Saad, Hickey, Lee etc

TWO big flaws in their plan were:
-- to try and do this in an era when GWS/Sun priority picks and Academies were radically restricting the available young talent
--that star FA's in the main do not want to join bottoming out clubs

The Blues have for example overdone the GWS cast-off solution so that despite some very promising early picks like Curnow, Dow, and out of the box player in Cripps while also allowing to allow some very good players like Beets and Tuohy to leave.


Short-cuts rarely work. Trying to imitate another club in one that has worked is folly.

If we lack leaders then look at who we are selecting, look at who we are recruiting, look who our coaching panel is made up of, but FFS please do not seek a magic-bullet Hodge MarkII as all that will most likely happen is we will shoot a blank yet again.

Success comes from hard work, commitment, being smart, executing well....and yes some luck. But good luck tends to go to those that do the hard and smart yards and not the "gamblers and speculators" wanting a quick fix.

[rodgerfox]

I think his comments aren't necessarily a reflection on the lack of leadership shown by our senior guys - just that there's not enough of them.

I've said this for months....

All good teams, have good senior groups. All teams with good senior groups, seem to magically 'develop' their young guys well. Equally as magical, as they lose their senior guys to injury or retirement - the develop of these young guys seems to drop off.

It's no coincidence.


Really, it's the list management that has been the problem. And not in terms of talent necessarily, as I believe that when we do have a good senior group (in 18 months or so) we will suddenly see our younger guys 'develop' really well.

[rodgerfox]

I've been saying this for months.

Then Roo and or Joey should have been kept on for another year.

This is a massive cop out by Richo.

Give Richo the arse, now.

Disagree.

It stems back to a lack of kids being introduced in 2009/2010.

As a result, our senior group now is Jack, Armo and Gilbo. We obviously added Brown to that.

That's just not good enough to bring young guys through. Teams that have good senior groups, develop their young guys better. Fact.

Teams that don't - don't. Fact.

You’re strawmaning me, Fox.

Plus, you have an imbecile agreeing with you; can’t be good.

Not exactly sure what you mean by that?

Keeping Roo and Joey for another doesn't solve the issue. They were cooked. Done. Just having old guys for the sake of it isn't the answer.

Having guys moving into that senior age and experience bracket as Joey, Dempster and Roo retired is what ideally would have happened. But we simply don't have them.


This is kind of the recession we had to have. The only way to avoid it, would have been to blood more guys back in 08-10 or to recruit some older players along the way. As it is, we did neither and here we are.


Patience is the key really. We all knew it was a rebuild. The rebuild started in 2013 and is coming along as planned I would have thought.

[Cairnsman]

I think most astute pundits would agree there aren't too many Hodge or Mitchel like candidates left, in fact none. But if there was one available it might not do any harm to this group of players.

I'm guessing what they are trying to fix is a need for players who can roll up the sleeves when a team starts to up the ante against us.

Clearly got caught out against North and then confidence got smacked.

Also would like to add that in the context of where the club and list is at that sacking the coach could be construed as an attempt at a quick fix.

[rodgerfox]

As I said above, the rebuild basically started in 2013 with the Billings/Dunstan/Acres recruitment.

Since, we've added McCartin, McKenzie, Steele, Carlisle, Gresham, Long, Coffield, Hunter Clark, White, Rice, Philips.


I think that's a decent rebuild really. And I think the time frame is reasonable too. It's 2018, and we started rebuilding in 2013 - what do people expect?

[SaintPav]

I've been saying this for months.

Then Roo and or Joey should have been kept on for another year.

This is a massive cop out by Richo.

Give Richo the arse, now.

Disagree.

It stems back to a lack of kids being introduced in 2009/2010.

As a result, our senior group now is Jack, Armo and Gilbo. We obviously added Brown to that.

That's just not good enough to bring young guys through. Teams that have good senior groups, develop their young guys better. Fact.

Teams that don't - don't. Fact.

You’re strawmaning me, Fox.

Plus, you have an imbecile agreeing with you; can’t be good.

Not exactly sure what you mean by that?

Keeping Roo and Joey for another doesn't solve the issue. They were cooked. Done. Just having old guys for the sake of it isn't the answer.

Having guys moving into that senior age and experience bracket as Joey, Dempster and Roo retired is what ideally would have happened. But we simply don't have them.


This is kind of the recession we had to have. The only way to avoid it, would have been to blood more guys back in 08-10 or to recruit some older players along the way. As it is, we did neither and here we are.


Patience is the key really. We all knew it was a rebuild. The rebuild started in 2013 and is coming along as planned I would have thought.

Strawman: I essentially agree with your post but you misrepresented or misunderstood what I meant as I did not say an older cohort of players isn’t important. BTW. You missed Geary and Brown (both 12 seasons); Roberton, Stevens and the Rock (all 9 seasons).

Point taken on Roo and Joey but I was being facetious. I still think it’s a bit of a cop out by Richo.

Armo needs to play on next year; we probably need a Goddard type, but not him. It really has to be the right player or they shouldn’t bother.

Not sure that the rebuild is on track; I really don’t think it is as we have a very unbalanced list in terms of both age cohort and types of players.

Imbecile: Well we all know who that deluded little creature is, don’t we.

[degruch]

Who?? Hodge has no doubt been great for Brisbane- or so we are told, but Lewis not so for Melbourne. One a true leader, the other a good player with experience.
Is there a Hodge like figure likely available? Not just an experienced cool head but someone with the universally recognised authority to set the standard. Geary is clearly not it,
This is a great opportunity for the current players to sort themselves out, a leader will emerge by seasons end. Trying to manufacture one too often ends in acrimony.
We should be trading for the best players we can get, senior or otherwise.
In my view we should hang tough, kept our draft picks, trade into the draft with sensible options (I have suggested Seb Ross previously) and let the contenders fight over the free agents. We will be a much improved team in 2019 and thus a more attractive option for the available FA's.

I think Lewis was just as effective at Melbourne early on, but their backline quickly got on with it and passed him...besides, his finals gaff last year and his biffo this year seem to indicate he gets confused occasionally and still thinks he's at the 'untouchable/do no wrong' Hawks. Brisbane will likely not require Hodge's onfield leadership next year too. These were both rare opportunities (and Mitchell) that worked out nicely for a couple teams loaded with talented young players, that lacked experience. I'd be worried our attempts to emulate would result in recruiting an injury prone list clogger. If the opportunity arises I say yes, but it would have to be an unexpected bonus, as there's no FA banging the door down for this role that I can see.

[SaintPav]

Who?? Hodge has no doubt been great for Brisbane- or so we are told, but Lewis not so for Melbourne. One a true leader, the other a good player with experience.
Is there a Hodge like figure likely available? Not just an experienced cool head but someone with the universally recognised authority to set the standard. Geary is clearly not it,
This is a great opportunity for the current players to sort themselves out, a leader will emerge by seasons end. Trying to manufacture one too often ends in acrimony.
We should be trading for the best players we can get, senior or otherwise.
In my view we should hang tough, kept our draft picks, trade into the draft with sensible options (I have suggested Seb Ross previously) and let the contenders fight over the free agents. We will be a much improved team in 2019 and thus a more attractive option for the available FA's.

I think Lewis was just as effective at Melbourne early on, but their backline quickly got on with it and passed him...besides, his finals gaff last year and his biffo this year seem to indicate he gets confused occasionally and still thinks he's at the 'untouchable/do no wrong' Hawks. Brisbane will likely not require Hodge's onfield leadership next year too. These were both rare opportunities (and Mitchell) that worked out nicely for a couple teams loaded with talented young players, that lacked experience. I'd be worried our attempts to emulate would result in recruiting an injury prone list clogger. If the opportunity arises I say yes, but it would have to be an unexpected bonus, as there's no FA banging the door down for this role that I can see.

What was Lewis’ finals gaff last year?

[saintsRrising]

I think that's a decent rebuild really. And I think the time frame is reasonable too. It's 2018, and we started rebuilding in 2013 - what do people expect?

After 5 years not a season like our first half of 2018.

It is not too late to recover as yes I agree that we have some good young talent and enough fora good platform to be built upon. But that young talent has not been made the most of.

And indeed if not for the horrid injury run which has forced Richo to play more of our youth and fringe we would probably be even further behind in developing that young talent than we are currently already have.

What the club now does at the end of this season (and indeed has already hopefully well progressed behind the scenes) will determine whether we now rapidly build, or whether we continue to flounder.

[rodgerfox]

......You missed Geary and Brown (both 12 seasons); Roberton, Stevens and the Rock (all 9 seasons)....

I didn't miss them. I think they're the case in point.

That's why I disagree with people screaming about Brown getting a game. He's crucial.

Roberton only turned 27 this year, and has been out. Savage is very ordinary and is an example of our very 'thin' senior group.


As I've been saying, when Roberton, Carlisle, Stevens, Ross, Hickey (maybe) and another one or two all fall in that 'senior group' category, it will coincide with our 'middle tier' all having 100 games under their belts. And whilst this is happening, the 'young group' of Hunter Clark, Long, Coffield, Battle, Gresham and whoever we add this Draft will be 'developed' really well.

[rodgerfox]

I think that's a decent rebuild really. And I think the time frame is reasonable too. It's 2018, and we started rebuilding in 2013 - what do people expect?

After 5 years not a season like our first half of 2018.

It happens.

Any club that doesn't have a good senior group of players has enormous issues developing their young guys - and as a result seemingly 'stalls' in their rebuild. Especially if you throw some injuries in.

[degruch]

Who?? Hodge has no doubt been great for Brisbane- or so we are told, but Lewis not so for Melbourne. One a true leader, the other a good player with experience.
Is there a Hodge like figure likely available? Not just an experienced cool head but someone with the universally recognised authority to set the standard. Geary is clearly not it,
This is a great opportunity for the current players to sort themselves out, a leader will emerge by seasons end. Trying to manufacture one too often ends in acrimony.
We should be trading for the best players we can get, senior or otherwise.
In my view we should hang tough, kept our draft picks, trade into the draft with sensible options (I have suggested Seb Ross previously) and let the contenders fight over the free agents. We will be a much improved team in 2019 and thus a more attractive option for the available FA's.

I think Lewis was just as effective at Melbourne early on, but their backline quickly got on with it and passed him...besides, his finals gaff last year and his biffo this year seem to indicate he gets confused occasionally and still thinks he's at the 'untouchable/do no wrong' Hawks. Brisbane will likely not require Hodge's onfield leadership next year too. These were both rare opportunities (and Mitchell) that worked out nicely for a couple teams loaded with talented young players, that lacked experience. I'd be worried our attempts to emulate would result in recruiting an injury prone list clogger. If the opportunity arises I say yes, but it would have to be an unexpected bonus, as there's no FA banging the door down for this role that I can see.

What was Lewis’ finals gaff last year?

Famously claimed it will be great to play finals again...after which the club followed up with their 'get your tickets now!' campaign. I think Jordan thought he was still at the Hawks, where you say these things and it just happens! Anyways, the point I was trying to raise was, like Hodge at Brissy this year, I think he was pretty instrumental in marshalling their backline 2017. I agree with your point, if there's not someone very obviously available, I wouldn't go looking too hard to fill the role with...erm...Dale Morrises.

[skeptic]

Reckon we had a bit of a leadership issue in the early 2000's under Grant Thomas. So he decided to anoint 3 young blokes with potential leadership skills; Nick Riewoldt, Luke Ball & Lenny Hayes. That worked.

Quite frankly, we don't need another Nathan Brown in the team.

It did. The GT model was very underrated in that regard.
I would point out however that he also embraced the leadership from some of the more senior players he already had in Hamil and Harvey to name a few.

What worked with GT whilst the younger brigade lacked experience... he identified the leaders and challenged them to fill the void.

Hayes, Riewoldt, Ball, Kosi, Dal Santo, Goddard, Clarke and Monty

There’s a few in that lot that we’re identified as having captaincy potential early on, and even amoung the Kosi, Milne and Dal groups were guys that were leaders even if not captains

[rodgerfox]

Oh s***. This is really bad.

Apart from deflecting responsibility, how is this going to make Jarryn and the leadership group feel?

Richo's comments aside, how should they feel?

Betrayed

Why?

Aren't his comments more aimed at the lack of depth in the senior ranks? Rather than the lack of leadership shown by the guys in that senior group?

I'd bet Geary would 100% want a chop out in the leadership space.