I feel like the hickey v longer debate is over

[The_Dud]

Billy could be the best tap ruckman in the league, but as the biggest bloke on the ground, if you can’t be a target down the line, or fill a hole in defence, or take a mark (let alone a contested one) and get a kick around the ground, you shouldn’t be playing AFL in 2018.

[elizabethr]

I don't think it's over..#1 was most exasperating tonite

[skeptic]

Only one dimwit debated it

Get off the juice, McKay made him look second rate so many times!!!!!

Talk about drinking your own bathwater, or in your case, user name!!!!!

Hickledik should have been best on, played on no bodies, with very little impact, Marshall played the way Hickledik should have!!!!!

But hey, at least he played in a win, let's see how he goes against Nank next week!!!!!

Its all about wins apparently

Hickey plays in big wins

Longer plays in scrappy, low margin wins

Against Grey Witches hat, that are clearly Tanking, with No Ruckman, let's pop the Cork's!!!!!

Celebrate good times, C'mon!!!!!

Enough said!!!!!

C’mon SC,

Just about everybody could see that this style of argument I employed was shall we say... tongue in cheek bordering on downright absurd

[vacuous space]

I feel like the only winner in the Hickey v Longer debate has been the opposition rucks.

[MC Gusto]

Apologies I had already sunk a few and didn’t realise Kreuzer was out!

Still hickey offers a lot more than longer at the moment

I just can’t understand how longer can have such little impact (especially in the air)

[Ape_Man]

If Longer was free to roam against no opposition, would anyone even notice?

[takeaway]

If Longer was free to roam against no opposition, would anyone even notice?

No, probably not. He'd just tap it to a midfielder well in the clear, easy pass to forward, goal. Back to Billy waiting in the centre. Process repeated.
Billy - No marks, no kicks, no need.

Joking of course, he'd have to move around a little bit.

Really this thread was started by a poster that didn't realise Kreuzer was off. Best to start another Hickey/Longer thread after Hick has played a couple more games in actual competition against a ruckman. Hope he goes well.

[kosifantutti]

If Longer was free to roam against no opposition, would anyone even notice?

He was free to roam in the Melbourne game. He was nowhere near Max Gawn most of the time.

[The_President]

Tell ya who is actually good


Ro Marshall o

[Crossy66]

interesting twist to the Longer / Hickey debate last night. The argument for Hickey is his mobility, versatility and what he does around the ground. After last nights game, I reckon Marshall has Tom covered in all areas and i think has heaps more upside than the older Hickey, Marhshall looked very good up forward and looks like a Very good player. Both are on a par with ruck contests. So i suggest the debate is over - pump games into Marshall and put Tom up for Trade. Retaining Billy gives us something different i.e. strong tap ruckman, fierce competitor, bit of hardness etc. It gives the coach the option to select "horses for Courses".

I think Tom was "ok" last night much the same as Billy was "ok" the week before. However one was matched on P. Ryder and the other had no opponent all night.
I dont think Tom made the most of the opportunity.

[The Fireman]

Hickey is so much better than Billy it doesn't even deserve debate

Right oh Bluthy!!!!!

oh oh............


mental note...hire security.

[congorozides]

What I like is that we can play Hickey and Marshall in the same side.

They have the ability to play more than one role.

Longer can play nowhere but ruck. So he becomes nothing more than a bench warmer when he needs a rest.

Longer is probably our best pure ruckman. But that isn’t enough in the modern game.

Agree.

Stonecold is going to explode.

[congorozides]

I have serious Marshall fever.

Marshall Law has been declared!

[Crossy66]

What I like is that we can play Hickey and Marshall in the same side.

They have the ability to play more than one role.

Longer can play nowhere but ruck. So he becomes nothing more than a bench warmer when he needs a rest.

Longer is probably our best pure ruckman. But that isn’t enough in the modern game.

Agree.

Stonecold is going to explode.

Whatever Hickey offers, Marshall matches or betters. Neither can do what Billy does, so that point of difference is important.
Did anyone notice the rough treatment Gresh copped last night? I think if you asked him, he would love to have had Billy close by, he would have gone in to help out, unlike what happened last night . Still think its important to have a few hard men in the side to look after the little fellas.

[The_Dud]

What I like is that we can play Hickey and Marshall in the same side.

They have the ability to play more than one role.

Longer can play nowhere but ruck. So he becomes nothing more than a bench warmer when he needs a rest.

Longer is probably our best pure ruckman. But that isn’t enough in the modern game.

Agree.

Stonecold is going to explode.

Whatever Hickey offers, Marshall matches or betters. Neither can do what Billy does, so that point of difference is important.
Did anyone notice the rough treatment Gresh copped last night? I think if you asked him, he would love to have had Billy close by, he would have gone in to help out, unlike what happened last night . Still think its important to have a few hard men in the side to look after the little fellas.

I have never once seen Billy being a “hard man” in an AFL game. No one fears Billy, people talk as if he’s Big Mummy or Plugger!

[saynta]

What I like is that we can play Hickey and Marshall in the same side.

They have the ability to play more than one role.

Longer can play nowhere but ruck. So he becomes nothing more than a bench warmer when he needs a rest.

Longer is probably our best pure ruckman. But that isn’t enough in the modern game.

Agree.

Stonecold is going to explode.

Whatever Hickey offers, Marshall matches or betters. Neither can do what Billy does, so that point of difference is important.
Did anyone notice the rough treatment Gresh copped last night? I think if you asked him, he would love to have had Billy close by, he would have gone in to help out, unlike what happened last night . Still think its important to have a few hard men in the side to look after the little fellas.

I agree with you on that. I was appalled that none of his mates jumped in to protect him from that Carscum animal.

[saynta]

What I like is that we can play Hickey and Marshall in the same side.

They have the ability to play more than one role.

Longer can play nowhere but ruck. So he becomes nothing more than a bench warmer when he needs a rest.

Longer is probably our best pure ruckman. But that isn’t enough in the modern game.

Agree.

Stonecold is going to explode.

Whatever Hickey offers, Marshall matches or betters. Neither can do what Billy does, so that point of difference is important.
Did anyone notice the rough treatment Gresh copped last night? I think if you asked him, he would love to have had Billy close by, he would have gone in to help out, unlike what happened last night . Still think its important to have a few hard men in the side to look after the little fellas.

I have never once seen Billy being a “hard man” in an AFL game. No one fears Billy, people talk as if he’s Big Mummy or Plugger!

I take it you have first hand knowledge of that eh? Who from an opposition side told you that no one fears Billy?

What a silly statement.

[samuraisaint]

Longer has value. When he is playing his best he works amazing in a 2 ruck set up. But like Hickey either injury or confidence has caused him to suck.
That said in best form Hickey is faster, he can jump more athletically ( meaning reach twist and bend) he can bend and scoop the ball, he can hand ball under pressure better and occassionally mark. That said, Longer at his best is a much better ruck jumping straight up and down, he marks in pack better and kicks for goal longer and more accurate. But that's best case scenario which has only happened once in real life and twice in a certain posters fantasy.

But neither added together are half the ruck we traded for Gresham. Who by the way is STILL kicking ass most games.

If you are referring to McEvoy he is currently injured. He's been really good for the Hawks, yes, but has definitely had his detractors too, especially when the Hawks are losing. He has received potting from his own supporters, don't worry about that.
Hawthorn often go in with a two ruckmen set up as well, and even when they don't Roughead can ruck, and he's pretty handy as well.

I am on record as saying that we as a team always look better when we have two ruckmen, and I think our performances mostly bear this out.
Billy Longer is the best tap ruckman we have on our list, hands down, I also like the way he is a bit laconic and would like him to maybe dish out a few more smackdowns during matches, For what it's worth, Longer would have absolutely killed it last night after Kreuzer went down, he would have cleaned up in the middle.

The thing is, and this is what the coach and committee need to sit down and work out is this, with the abolition of the third man up, has the game passed Hickey by, as some on here have already suggested? Or is Hickey a dangerous weapon who is only going to get better the more he plays and the less he rucks (more about that in a sec).
He did some really effective things, like the give off to Gresham in front of goal last night.
Is Billy too one-dimensional? What I mean is; if the two ruckmen playing each week makes us a better unit as a team, will Billy be able to fill another role (lose man down back, resting in the forward pocket, etc) when our second ruck is challenging in the hit outs?
And what of Marshall? He looks like a weapon to deploy in the forward line, and let's be honest, he's a better, more physical ruckman than Hickey, he just is.
Lewis Pierce - do we rookie list him? We already have three ruckman, and Gilbert can go in the ruck too, it's beginning to look a bit like overkill.

In my opinion, the club need to choose which of these three (or four) is going to be our #1 ruckman and stick with that, until injuries kick in. Play Marshall every week until the end of the year, and if they go with Hickey in the ruck, then he plays mainly in the forward pocket, when the other ruckman is at the coalface. If AR goes with Billy, then coach him and develop his skills to be able to contest around the ground as effectively as he does in the ruck.

[kosifantutti]

What I like is that we can play Hickey and Marshall in the same side.

They have the ability to play more than one role.

Longer can play nowhere but ruck. So he becomes nothing more than a bench warmer when he needs a rest.

Longer is probably our best pure ruckman. But that isn’t enough in the modern game.

Agree.

Stonecold is going to explode.

Whatever Hickey offers, Marshall matches or betters. Neither can do what Billy does, so that point of difference is important.
Did anyone notice the rough treatment Gresh copped last night? I think if you asked him, he would love to have had Billy close by, he would have gone in to help out, unlike what happened last night . Still think its important to have a few hard men in the side to look after the little fellas.

It was 100m off the play so there’s a good chance Billy would have been there.

[Scollop]

The debate will be over when Richo and his assistants are left out of the debate

Would love to see both Hickey and Marshall played in the same team for several weeks.

Good opportunity while Paddy and Bruce are out for an extended period

[The_Dud]

What I like is that we can play Hickey and Marshall in the same side.

They have the ability to play more than one role.

Longer can play nowhere but ruck. So he becomes nothing more than a bench warmer when he needs a rest.

Longer is probably our best pure ruckman. But that isn’t enough in the modern game.

Agree.

Stonecold is going to explode.

Whatever Hickey offers, Marshall matches or betters. Neither can do what Billy does, so that point of difference is important.
Did anyone notice the rough treatment Gresh copped last night? I think if you asked him, he would love to have had Billy close by, he would have gone in to help out, unlike what happened last night . Still think its important to have a few hard men in the side to look after the little fellas.

I have never once seen Billy being a “hard man” in an AFL game. No one fears Billy, people talk as if he’s Big Mummy or Plugger!

I take it you have first hand knowledge of that eh? Who from an opposition side told you that no one fears Billy?

What a silly statement.

And who has told you they do?

[saynta]

Shakes head.

[asiu]

It was 100m off the play so there’s a good chance Billy would have been there.

ta

that brightened my day.

[SydneySainter]

What I like is that we can play Hickey and Marshall in the same side.

They have the ability to play more than one role.

Longer can play nowhere but ruck. So he becomes nothing more than a bench warmer when he needs a rest.

Longer is probably our best pure ruckman. But that isn’t enough in the modern game.

Agree.

Stonecold is going to explode.

Whatever Hickey offers, Marshall matches or betters. Neither can do what Billy does, so that point of difference is important.
Did anyone notice the rough treatment Gresh copped last night? I think if you asked him, he would love to have had Billy close by, he would have gone in to help out, unlike what happened last night . Still think its important to have a few hard men in the side to look after the little fellas.

I have never once seen Billy being a “hard man” in an AFL game. No one fears Billy, people talk as if he’s Big Mummy or Plugger!

I take it you have first hand knowledge of that eh? Who from an opposition side told you that no one fears Billy?

What a silly statement.

And who has told you they do?

I’m also keen to know which opponents allegedly fear Billy’s so-called mongrel? If he was such a feared opponent, wouldn’t he have taken at least a scalp or two this season?

I think this is just further spin-doctoring the Billy myth - like him being an excellent tap ruck and that he’s a beast at the stoppages.

What use are these perceived strengths if his hitout averages arent actually any better than Hickey’s? This is becoming more and more like Brian Taylor’s defence of Leon Davis after the 2010 drawn GF - “what about that nice hand pass to Daisy?”

What I will say though is that one strength Longer has over Hickey is that Hickey is far too easily pushed and brushed aside. A flaw in Hickey’s game that I’m skeptical will improve, but will have to if Hickey is to ever have any hope of being a no. 1 ruck. Again, hope to be proven wrong, but skeptical.

[Linton Lodger]

Nowhere near over.

Hickey went OK against Kruezer, but that was only for 20 minutes. After that he was playing on either McKay, Curnow or Jones!

Hickey's game was the very least you would have expected from him in such circumstances. However he should have been more dominant and done more around the ground given that he didn't need to worry about Kruezer.

I'd still be having a hard look at Longer for the Richmond game.