McCartin

[The OtherThommo]

No doubt he was poor; but I’ve never seen a forward able to kick bags when the only delivery he gets are munged helicopters, hospital passes, grubbers or 15m either side of him.

I have, but he was the greatest player I’ve ever seen.

Been away for a while, but am 'inspired' to stick my oar back in.

I take it you're talking about A.J. Lockett?

So, Ape.........pauses for a breath...................have you got the slightest comprehension of the differences in the game when he played, and today?

Point 2 - A.J. Lockett had 2 blokes to lead to named Winwar and Harvey. Those 2 ring a bell?

This McCartin discussion is again deteriorating unto drivel.

Hi ToT,

Hold up for a second and take a breath.

I didn't actually say anything about McCartin.

I just responded to this part of the original post: 'but I’ve never seen a forward able to kick bags when the only delivery he gets are munged helicopters, hospital passes, grubbers or 15m either side of him'

To that I say 'Why yes, yes I have'

Had nothing to do with Paddy.

Fair cop, I may have gone a tad early thinking you were of the simplistic disparagement cohort. I read on, and suspected I'd forked that one up, so the hands are in the air, pleading.

[The OtherThommo]

Reality check for those making excuses.

Paddy McCartin - 34 goals from 35 games. 22 years old. Average team.

Charlie Curnow - 51 goals from 40 games. 21 years old. s*** team.

Eric Hipwood - 68 goals from 45 games. 20 years old. s*** team.

Either of those two broke a collarbone or been knocked out 3 times in games?

Dunno.

But maybe they have peripheral vision, awareness and agility and are therefore less likely to get injured?

Fair dinkum, Con, back in the (E'dope) days you used to be moved by evidence - now you're just grasping at RUBBISH!!

Good Lord man, what happened?!

Evidence?

You called out my post with prejudice.

You need to calm a little. I think you are reading into things that may not be there.

"With prejudice"?!?!

Hi, Ape, we've never met before, I'm colloquially known as ToT, how ya doin'?

I don't do "prejudice". Please note I was referring to Con's (and Con and I do go back, and not in any disrespectful way, at all) suggestion that his opinion - re comparative "peripheral vision, awareness and agility" was not founded in evidence, but opinion.

My earlier mention of Dixon's comparative statistical performance was evidence rebutting much the same opinion made earlier.

I saw an interview with the great (now) octogenarian investigative journalist, Seymour Hersh, recently. He's on a 'book tour' because of the publishing of his new book, "Reporter: A Memoir" (he was going to write one about Dick Cheney, but a couple of his still living sources were worried they might be 'offed' for speaking to him).

Anythoooo, Hersh made a comment about the decline of standards in contemporary establishment media, i.e. 'The 2 most dangerous words used in modern media are "I think".'

He's right.

[Cairnsman]

The say never go into battle with an unarmed soldier. Enjoying some of the ToT jousting and fiddling.

Anyways back on the Saints.

As mentioned in the Jimmy Webster thread, Port worked out our strength was creating attack from the quick transition out of defence, as was masterfully coached and executed against Melbourne.

So it was a no brainer for the oppo analyst to decide Jimmy was the one to work over, which most astute pundits would acknowledge was always going to be easy for a team travelling as well as Port.

Once Port had this chess move decided, the delivery into the forward line was probably also then going to be poor and fragmented. Paddy was then easily nullified because the ball was coming into the forward line with great predictability which also made it easy for the loose defenders to pick him off.

Injuries have really hurt our development this year.

[saintsRrising]

Injuries have really hurt our development this year.

I think the opposite.

It has forced the selectors to play out younger and fringe players more.

It has hurt our win loss, but has aided our long term development.

Yes winning more would help more but at least these guys got more games and chances.

[Ape_Man]

Reality check for those making excuses.

Paddy McCartin - 34 goals from 35 games. 22 years old. Average team.

Charlie Curnow - 51 goals from 40 games. 21 years old. s*** team.

Eric Hipwood - 68 goals from 45 games. 20 years old. s*** team.

Either of those two broke a collarbone or been knocked out 3 times in games?

Dunno.

But maybe they have peripheral vision, awareness and agility and are therefore less likely to get injured?

Fair dinkum, Con, back in the (E'dope) days you used to be moved by evidence - now you're just grasping at RUBBISH!!

Good Lord man, what happened?!

Evidence?

You called out my post with prejudice.

You need to calm a little. I think you are reading into things that may not be there.

"With prejudice"?!?!

Hi, Ape, we've never met before, I'm colloquially known as ToT, how ya doin'?

I don't do "prejudice". Please note I was referring to Con's (and Con and I do go back, and not in any disrespectful way, at all) suggestion that his opinion - re comparative "peripheral vision, awareness and agility" was not founded in evidence, but opinion.

My earlier mention of Dixon's comparative statistical performance was evidence rebutting much the same opinion made earlier.

I saw an interview with the great (now) octogenarian investigative journalist, Seymour Hersh, recently. He's on a 'book tour' because of the publishing of his new book, "Reporter: A Memoir" (he was going to write one about Dick Cheney, but a couple of his still living sources were worried they might be 'offed' for speaking to him).

Anythoooo, Hersh made a comment about the decline of standards in contemporary establishment media, i.e. 'The 2 most dangerous words used in modern media are "I think".'

He's right.

Fair cop, I may have gone a tad early thinking you were of the simplistic disparagement cohort. I read on, and suspected I'd forked that one up, so the hands are in the air, pleading.

You are on fire ToT. I have enjoyed your points and arguments immensely.

I just would like to point out that your gracious post here shows that you replied to me with a preconceived opinion with no basis in fact.

That’s the definition of prejudice.

Anyway, looking forward to you ripping me and a everyone else a new one

[Yorkeys]

Seen the match stats? #32 is recorded as having 6 disposals, 4 marks, a clanger, kicked two behinds, one tackle, zero contested possessions. Easily ahead of worst performer statistically #39 who managed only 3 touches and no tackles. #32 was also awarded something called fantasy points; he got 35 well ahead of both #39 and #19, who unfortunately had 7 clangers from 19 possessions. Well everyone has a bad day especially against Port in Adelaide because they really put it to you and the weather was crap. #19 is at the end of a good career, #39 was second up and taken as a rookie under a special scheme. #32 was a #1 draft pick. As has been pointed out by the forum there is no apparent correlation between draft # and performance (although it could possibly be hypothesised that there is an inverse relationship under certain conditions). One game doesn't define a career so hopefully Paddy will do better in more suitable conditions e.g. when defenders don't try to spoil and the ball is delivered lace out - in the meantime he has managed to lower expectations and that should take any performance pressure off. As ToT has pointed out it was unfair to project* my own shortcomings on Paddy after a superficial look at a few hours of footy as it is a tough caper and membership is not a licence to criticise the young man . So chastened I will remain patient, just keep waiting for Godot.

* (had to look it up, but, in Introduction to psycho babble 101, by D. King, nearby was the entry for pretentious)

[fugazi]

Seen the match stats? #32 is recorded as having 6 disposals, 4 marks, a clanger, kicked two behinds, one tackle, zero contested possessions. Easily ahead of worst performer statistically #39 who managed only 3 touches and no tackles. #32 was also awarded something called fantasy points; he got 35 well ahead of both #39 and #19, who unfortunately had 7 clangers from 19 possessions. Well everyone has a bad day especially against Port in Adelaide because they really put it to you and the weather was crap. #19 is at the end of a good career, #39 was second up and taken as a rookie under a special scheme. #32 was a #1 draft pick. As has been pointed out by the forum there is no apparent correlation between draft # and performance (although it could possibly be hypothesised that there is an inverse relationship under certain conditions). One game doesn't define a career so hopefully Paddy will do better in more suitable conditions e.g. when defenders don't try to spoil and the ball is delivered lace out - in the meantime he has managed to lower expectations and that should take any performance pressure off. As ToT has pointed out it was unfair to project* my own shortcomings on Paddy after a superficial look at a few hours of footy as it is a tough caper and membership is not a licence to criticise the young man . So chastened I will remain patient, just keep waiting for Godot.

* (had to look it up, but, in Introduction to psycho babble 101, by D. King, nearby was the entry for pretentious)

Wow Yorkeys...thats a masterclass...

[spert]

Seen the match stats? #32 is recorded as having 6 disposals, 4 marks, a clanger, kicked two behinds, one tackle, zero contested possessions. Easily ahead of worst performer statistically #39 who managed only 3 touches and no tackles. #32 was also awarded something called fantasy points; he got 35 well ahead of both #39 and #19, who unfortunately had 7 clangers from 19 possessions. Well everyone has a bad day especially against Port in Adelaide because they really put it to you and the weather was crap. #19 is at the end of a good career, #39 was second up and taken as a rookie under a special scheme. #32 was a #1 draft pick. As has been pointed out by the forum there is no apparent correlation between draft # and performance (although it could possibly be hypothesised that there is an inverse relationship under certain conditions). One game doesn't define a career so hopefully Paddy will do better in more suitable conditions e.g. when defenders don't try to spoil and the ball is delivered lace out - in the meantime he has managed to lower expectations and that should take any performance pressure off. As ToT has pointed out it was unfair to project* my own shortcomings on Paddy after a superficial look at a few hours of footy as it is a tough caper and membership is not a licence to criticise the young man . So chastened I will remain patient, just keep waiting for Godot.

* (had to look it up, but, in Introduction to psycho babble 101, by D. King, nearby was the entry for pretentious)

What do we do now that we're having fun...

[saintkid]

The comments are justified. Unfair to attack posters who have been more than patient with some of our high draft picks. McCartin on the list now for 4 years, Billings for 5 years. They are both average plodders at best. How many kicks of Billings were smothered today? He hardly wins his own ball, so to see him not being able to get a clear kick away magnified how bad he was again today. Supporters have been tolerant enough. 4-5 years of mediocre performance appraisals would not cut it in any position for the rest of us in the real world, so why should we tip-toe around their repeated mediocrity week after week?

I suggest you cast a wider eye if you want to master the theory of mediocrity, Kid.

It matters not a damn what draft pick a player went at 4, 5, 6 years ago. This is now, they're here, and there is never a magical solution to the endless raft of crap dished up by people who spend there whole lives thinking a 'number' defines theirs or anyone else's future.

So, here's a question - you want to piss off blokes like Paddy and Billings because they're 'flops', right. And, you're a real good judge, no, no-one better?

Can you explain to me what we're likely to receive in return for 2 blokes you state are hopeless mediocrities?

This entire argument as perpetrated by similar types is so riddled with logic holes as to make it laughable.

I come from the exact opposite perspective i.e. what has this football club done to develop the talent every goddamn 'expert' in the caper knew these 2 blokes (for example) had?

You're correct we're not going to receive much for them given their playing histories to date and the time they've been on the list. What's done is done. However, continuing to play them in the hope they come good is a bit like having blindfolds on. Such decisions demonstrate club mediocrity from a different perspective. The coaching panel needs to look at other players who potentially show more raw talent and upside to help improve this list. As a generational follower of the game, you don't need a past Afl playing history to see Battle is a better raw talent than McCartin or that Billings attack on the ball and his physical presence out there is miles off what's needed to keep his spot at senior level. Giving Battle more game time was a step in the right direction but continually playing these two in the seniors is not working. It serves to only magnify their deficiencies and put further pressure on their inability to perform on the football field. Laughable? Well the list has not progressed, gone backwards, so if it is partly a coaching development problem that these two have not progressed, then a clean out is needed asap because supporters have had a gut-full of these performances and Richardson's team selections.

[Cairnsman]

Injuries have really hurt our development this year.

I think the opposite.

It has forced the selectors to play out younger and fringe players more.

It has hurt our win loss, but has aided our long term development.

Yes winning more would help more but at least these guys got more games and chances.

You are absolutely right and thank you for adding a very valid point. From adversity comes opportunity.

[To the top]

No mention of 28, whose “stats” were on a par with 32

The problem was our structure and our tail, starting with 14 then 18 and half a dozen others

That they negate Webster hence our run and carry from defence says it all

That we ruck 32 leaving 28 as our remaining key position player in attack says it all

28 is mid field size

Time for change at the top (Coach, selection, Captain) and at the bottom (our tail of half a dozen or more players who are continually gifted games)

[Wombat15]

Yes, the kid was killed at the selection table. But his aggression at the contest is almost non-existent. Josh Battle showed me more in 4 games than paddy has in seasons. Battles goal assist last week to JB typified everything we wanted in paddy. Aggressive, lost the contest but followed up with a second effort and third efforts. Then another part was the Hibberd tackle. Just laid the effer out! (Guarantee battle would've still laid him out even without the ball and i would've been happy). Wanted to see Paddy become G-Train 2.0 but he's just not going to get there with this club. There really isn't an aspect paddy has improved at that tells me we shouldn't trade him. Ring around and see whos offering a first rounder and go from there. This year's crop of speedsters and mids is good. Build from a workhorse forward line of Bruce, Battle, Membrey and have Marshall playing as the 3rd tall and second ruck to give Hickey a chop out.
Last nights game from paddy showed a complete lack of intensity of the contest regardless of the delivery. Never seen a KPP jog to so many contests or apply that little of pressure. You can get away with that nonsense if you're kicking 4-5 a game. But the reality is he misses on a frequent basis.

[David-Lee]

Reality check for those making excuses.

Paddy McCartin - 34 goals from 35 games. 22 years old. Average team.

Charlie Curnow - 51 goals from 40 games. 21 years old. s*** team.

Eric Hipwood - 68 goals from 45 games. 20 years old. s*** team.

And, the much celebrated Charlie Dixon, Con?

He went in to today's game with 13 goals in 14 games played for the year. 27 years old - LAUDED. Until the last 7 odd minutes today, playing for the side that is now 2nd, even the Fuggs Footy imbeciles had him down as bested by a bloke who hasn't yet played double figure games, Logan Austin.

Bing-bada-boom, 'Chuck' kicks 3 in junk time, and all of a sudden he's a 'star'.

There are facts, there are figures, and then there's understanding, cognisance, if you like.

Early this year, Jesse Hogan was lauded as the modern day all round footballer forward, the one hardest to beat - he kicked 1 against us last week, and that was the first goal he'd kicked in 3 freakin' weeks. And, going into those 3 weeks, 'experts' were starting to discuss whether 'The Dees" might do a Dogs '16 or Tiggs '17.

I can take this as far as anyone likes. Example - Wet Toast won 10 in a row.....THEY'RE CHALLENGERS!!!! HAIL THE LORD!!! They then lose 2 players - 2!!! Darling 1 week, Kennedy the next - all of a sudden they're shot to bits, can't beat time with a stick. Aw, shucks, now they've got 'structural problems'.

From last week, we lost our Full Back, CH Back, and CHF. But, oh no, we haven't got 'structural problems'.

Look, we're poor, and I don't think the 'brains trust' has got a clue.

But, Con, me ol' mate, please don't dish up cherry picked pejorative driven stats.

Cos, I'll slaughter the rationale every freakin' time - you are not talking/writing sense.

....or what about the Saints Messiah Richo in 2014? Or Watters in 2012,13? Should've done those years as your point to prove....how having absolute A graders and gun kids gave us NOTHING!


PADDY is never, ever going to be a cornerstone of anything for any AFL team. He has had 3 decent games and loads of injury. It happens. If he had been healthy, I'm sure Richo and co would still have developed him into the insipid forward he is now.

A mate made a game reel of all the balls that have bounced out of his hands THIS year alone and he claims he's counted 61. I watched it for 5 minutes and there was at least 30.

This wasn't getting his arms chopped or pushed in the back, just simply unable to lead and grab.
But hand him a sandwich and tell him not to move and to catch anything that hits him in the chest ......he's golden.

[Vazelos]

No doubt he was poor; but I’ve never seen a forward able to kick bags when the only delivery he gets are munged helicopters, hospital passes, grubbers or 15m either side of him.

I have, but he was the greatest player I’ve ever seen.

Been away for a while, but am 'inspired' to stick my oar back in.

I take it you're talking about A.J. Lockett?

So, Ape.........pauses for a breath...................have you got the slightest comprehension of the differences in the game when he played, and today?

Point 2 - A.J. Lockett had 2 blokes to lead to named Winwar and Harvey. Those 2 ring a bell?

This McCartin discussion is again deteriorating unto drivel.

Harvey started in 1988 the year after Plugger won his Brownlow and Winmar started in 1987, Plugger had already kicked bags of goals before then in wooden spoon teams.
In 1984 at 18 he kicked 7 goals against Essendon who won the premiership that year in his second season.
Let us not mention the greatest footballer to grace the earth to a struggling No 1 pick.
Plugger was much more athletic than Mc Cartin especially in the early days before knee and back injuries.
Yes the game was different but Plugger had 2/3 hanging off him and now you have a finger rest on someone’s shoulder it’s a free kick then Plugger couldn’t buy a free.

[Con Gorozidis]

e.g. when defenders don't try to spoil and the ball is delivered lace out.

Tend to agree.
This is the AFL circa 2018. The fwd line is ultra congested. The defenders are all good. Week in and week out.

Those suggesting if Paddy got some more lace out passes he'd be a star are dreaming. This wont happen unless he goes and plays country league.
Even in a top skilled side a key fwd might only get 1 or 2 lace out passes per week inside 50 at AFL level.

[Con Gorozidis]

No doubt he was poor; but I’ve never seen a forward able to kick bags when the only delivery he gets are munged helicopters, hospital passes, grubbers or 15m either side of him.

I have, but he was the greatest player I’ve ever seen.

Been away for a while, but am 'inspired' to stick my oar back in.

I take it you're talking about A.J. Lockett?

So, Ape.........pauses for a breath...................have you got the slightest comprehension of the differences in the game when he played, and today?

Point 2 - A.J. Lockett had 2 blokes to lead to named Winwar and Harvey. Those 2 ring a bell?

This McCartin discussion is again deteriorating unto drivel.

Harvey started in 1988 the year after Plugger won his Brownlow and Winmar started in 1987, Plugger had already kicked bags of goals before then in wooden spoon teams.
In 1984 at 18 he kicked 7 goals against Essendon who won the premiership that year in his second season.
Let us not mention the greatest footballer to grace the earth to a struggling No 1 pick.
Plugger was much more athletic than Mc Cartin especially in the early days before knee and back injuries.
Yes the game was different but Plugger had 2/3 hanging off him and now you have a finger rest on someone’s shoulder it’s a free kick then Plugger couldn’t buy a free.

Tend to agree.
Harvey and Winmar came along after plugger had already bagged about 300 goals in a horrendous side.

When plugger started he had two big blokes on him and then a third standing in front of him to block space. The ground was often muddy and the delivery was terrible helicopter kicks most of the time.

[Sanctorum]

Granted that Paddy is not playing to the standard we expected, and the same goes for Billings, you can probably include Acres and Dunstan as well. Fact is that St Kilda don't have the talent in the coaching ranks to develop young players, especially early draft picks, to reach their potential as quickly (if ever) as do other clubs - Geelong, Hawthorn especially.

St Kilda has 2 senior coaching positions filled by blokes who have never played AFL at the elite level:

Director of Coaching and Development Danny Sexton - drafted by North Melbourne in 1990 but never made the senior team before retiring and starting on a coaching career at junior levels, working his way up until employed by the Saints as a Development Coach in 2006.

Senior Assistant Coach Simon PcPhee - played in lower comps in WA, never actually drafted by an AFL club; brought to the Saints by Scott Watters in 2011 in a player development role.

Is it any wonder that St Kilda have never in that time managed to bring the best out of the young blokes drafted into the team - how long did it take Seb Ross to reach his potential - years!!

My point is that young players are hardly going to respect their coaches if the coaches themselves have never made it into the big time - what would Sexton and McPhee know about playing elite level AFL....they might have gained all of the coaching qualifications in the world, but it means bugger all if you haven't experienced footy at the coal face.

I am totally opposed to any suggestions that McCartin and Billings should be traded away - instead, let's clear out the coaching staff and bring in some proven and experienced coaches to assist Richo, former AFL players who can impart their personal experiences on to the young Saints and develop their potential the way the top teams do.

I'll be really disappointed if, following the current review by Simon Lethlean, both Sexton and McPhee remain at St Kilda.

[The_Dud]

Just to throw another spanned in the works, Petracca got 29 touches this weekend!

[longtimesaint]

Just to throw another spanned in the works, Petracca got 29 touches this weekend!

Against a very poor Freo with there best two players out. They were thrashed by Brisbane last week at home.

[saintkid]

Just to throw another spanned in the works, Petracca got 29 touches this weekend!

Like it or not Petracca is a physical powerhouse. Has shown in glimpses that he has the talent and ability to be a genuine superstar. It is all between the ears with him. He has all the attributes to be one of the best midfielders in the league,

[saintkid]

Just to throw another spanned in the works, Petracca got 29 touches this weekend!

Against a very poor Freo with there best two players out. They were thrashed by Brisbane last week at home.

I would take that performance any day right now from one of our early draft picks. Oh but hang on, Billings got a ton of possessions against a depleted Frankston in the VFL a few weeks ago so he is better.

[derby Street]

Just to throw another spanned in the works, Petracca got 29 touches this weekend!

7 more possessions than Billings who played against a far better side than he did.

[saintkid]

Just to throw another spanned in the works, Petracca got 29 touches this weekend!

7 more possessions than Billings who played against a far better side than he did.

My respectful comment to this post......watch Petracca's 29 possessions and watch all of Billing's 22. Then make a comment please. Petracca oozes strength, poise, class and is a more penetrating kick.

[SaintPav]

I think ToT mentioned cherry-picking.

[Devilhead]

Just to throw another spanned in the works, Petracca got 29 touches this weekend!

7 more possessions than Billings who played against a far better side than he did.

My respectful comment to this post......watch Petracca's 29 possessions and watch all of Billing's 22. Then make a comment please. Petracca oozes strength, poise, class and is a more penetrating kick.

Flatracca is a flat track bully - didn't ooze too much when we beat them last week