Tony Elshaugh

[bigred]

We have only one pick in the first 40 in a superdraft.

Whilst that is clearly correct, the decision to move Elshaugh out seems to indicate that there may be a number of players traded out for either or both picks or players. Although we don't have any genuine A grades we now have plenty of B and C grade players who are tradable.

To get a top 25 pick we will have to trade out someone decent.

That's why we start gifting Billy games now so he can get some currency up

[cwrcyn]

Most of the atrocious decisions early on were driven by Pelchen, but I can see why this decision was made. If Hughes takes over, the we'll be worse off. He's utterly hopeless and I'm staggered we even employed him given his horrible record.

[Junior]

Most of the atrocious decisions early on were driven by Pelchen, but I can see why this decision was made. If Hughes takes over, the we'll be worse off. He's utterly hopeless and I'm staggered we even employed him given his horrible record.

If Hughes takes over we may as well close the doors.

[saintspremiers]

Last night the Swine had 11 former rookie listed players playing.

That doesn’t rely on 2nd and 3rd round picks to build does it?

‘Just sayin’

[axcellence]

I think a key thing under-explored is minimum list. I understand that it is 38. Saints have the full 40 senior listers. Cut more and if necessary transfer to rookie list.

Blow FAs with big offers based on the saving.

[Saintmatt]

Last night the Swine had 11 former rookie listed players playing.

That doesn’t rely on 2nd and 3rd round picks to build does it?

‘Just sayin’

Correct. It relies on development. And therein lies the issue.

If I was Lethlean - my focus / blade - would now turn sharply towards anyone in our club who’s been involved in our development in the past 5 years.

Off with their heads ...

[realdeal]

Bye bye Sexton..

[portosaint]

Last night the Swine had 11 former rookie listed players playing.

That doesn’t rely on 2nd and 3rd round picks to build does it?

‘Just sayin’

Correct. It relies on development. And therein lies the issue.

If I was Lethlean - my focus / blade - would now turn sharply towards anyone in our club who’s been involved in our development in the past 5 years.

Off with their heads ...

I started a thread on this after the Swans loss. The clubs are not even comparable when it comes to development.

If the Saints end up with the best list manager in the country but don't fix the development side, nothing will change. And everyone will still sook that the kids are no good... Bont... The Tractor.... Blah blah.

Simples

[st.byron]

Last night the Swine had 11 former rookie listed players playing.

That doesn’t rely on 2nd and 3rd round picks to build does it?

‘Just sayin’

Correct. It relies on development. And therein lies the issue.

If I was Lethlean - my focus / blade - would now turn sharply towards anyone in our club who’s been involved in our development in the past 5 years.

Off with their heads ...

And Richardson was lauded as an expert in developing players based on his work at Port.

[mohannair]

Well that's done.
Does feel positive.
Who would we want?

Terry Wallace

[The_Dud]

With proper development our recent drafting wouldn’t be a problem.

[saintspremiers]

Last night the Swine had 11 former rookie listed players playing.

That doesn’t rely on 2nd and 3rd round picks to build does it?

‘Just sayin’

Correct. It relies on development. And therein lies the issue.

If I was Lethlean - my focus / blade - would now turn sharply towards anyone in our club who’s been involved in our development in the past 5 years.

Off with their heads ...

And Richardson was lauded as an expert in developing players based on his work at Port.

Exactly!

So he has to go along with ALL his assistants.

It's a Tsunami at RSEA Park, not a quick sweep up....

[remboy]

Not sure how much Elshaug was involved with them but two recent are starting to look very good. Picks 5 & 24 for Carlisle and Gresham (in my mind maybe our only untradeables) and pick 10 for 7, 23 & 36 (Clarke, Long & Battle). Maybe luck plays its part with who is available at those picks but we've done well from those two deals.

[parkeysainter]

So who is his replacement going to be?

Lethers said he would have been moved on at season's end anyway, but he got shafted early. Makes me think Lethers has someone for the gig already.

[derby Street]

What about the national Recruiting position - does Elshaugh move on from that role as well as the List Management?

[Crossy66]

Last night the Swine had 11 former rookie listed players playing.

That doesn’t rely on 2nd and 3rd round picks to build does it?

‘Just sayin’

Correct. It relies on development. And therein lies the issue.

If I was Lethlean - my focus / blade - would now turn sharply towards anyone in our club who’s been involved in our development in the past 5 years.

Off with their heads ...

And Richardson was lauded as an expert in developing players based on his work at Port.

Been saying it for a while now, the Swans are the benchmark for developing rookies into AFL players and have been so for a long time, so we should really study there process. Seems its more than just development, they play a system of footy that makes it easier to insert a player to play a specific role. Not unlike Lyon, so no coincidence there.
Richo quite rightly delegates development to others so is reliant on his assistants, but was very highly regard in that role himself. maybe we arent investing the right resources into this area.

[rodgerfox]

Last night the Swine had 11 former rookie listed players playing.

That doesn’t rely on 2nd and 3rd round picks to build does it?

‘Just sayin’

Correct. It relies on development. And therein lies the issue.

If I was Lethlean - my focus / blade - would now turn sharply towards anyone in our club who’s been involved in our development in the past 5 years.

Off with their heads ...

And Richardson was lauded as an expert in developing players based on his work at Port.

Been saying it for a while now, the Swans are the benchmark for developing rookies into AFL players and have been so for a long time, so we should really study there process. Seems its more than just development, they play a system of footy that makes it easier to insert a player to play a specific role. Not unlike Lyon, so no coincidence there.
Richo quite rightly delegates development to others so is reliant on his assistants, but was very highly regard in that role himself. maybe we arent investing the right resources into this area.

I know I've been harping on about it for a while - but development of young players always seems to coincide with teams that have a good group of senior players.

The teams that have remained competitive for long periods, have managed to keep their list balanced and keep young guys coming - whilst ensuring they have a good group of old guys at the same time. The teams that fall away and go in to 'rebuild' mode and seem to struggle to develop their young guys are the ones with a senior player vacuum.

Sydney, Geelong, Hawthorn, North and West Coast are examples of this. Even Collingwood and Melbourne this year look to be coming good, as they have balanced up and have a decent senior group. Collingwood have Pendlebury, Wells, Howe, Greenwood and Sidebottom - and they added Dunn now too which has made a huge difference. Melbourne were rubbish and their young guys looked soft until they added Hibberd and Lewis to their senior group with Jones.

I honestly believe that if we were to add two solid, professional and hard senior guys (don't have to be superstars) to our team you'd instantly see our younger guys appear far, far better than they do now.

[Joffa Burns]

Thanks Trout for your dedicated service to the club.
Worked hard and gave it his best, but in the end I think the "Paddy Pressure" has been the final nail.

I believe like many others on this forum that development is as much as issue as recruiting, both go hand in hand.

I think he will get picked up by another club as he is knowledgeable, experienced and seems a good fellow.

Would be better in a recruiter role, not the top banana and at a club with a more professional structure and development program.

[Crossy66]

Last night the Swine had 11 former rookie listed players playing.

That doesn’t rely on 2nd and 3rd round picks to build does it?

‘Just sayin’

Correct. It relies on development. And therein lies the issue.

If I was Lethlean - my focus / blade - would now turn sharply towards anyone in our club who’s been involved in our development in the past 5 years.

Off with their heads ...

And Richardson was lauded as an expert in developing players based on his work at Port.

Been saying it for a while now, the Swans are the benchmark for developing rookies into AFL players and have been so for a long time, so we should really study there process. Seems its more than just development, they play a system of footy that makes it easier to insert a player to play a specific role. Not unlike Lyon, so no coincidence there.
Richo quite rightly delegates development to others so is reliant on his assistants, but was very highly regard in that role himself. maybe we arent investing the right resources into this area.

I know I've been harping on about it for a while - but development of young players always seems to coincide with teams that have a good group of senior players.

The teams that have remained competitive for long periods, have managed to keep their list balanced and keep young guys coming - whilst ensuring they have a good group of old guys at the same time. The teams that fall away and go in to 'rebuild' mode and seem to struggle to develop their young guys are the ones with a senior player vacuum.

Sydney, Geelong, Hawthorn, North and West Coast are examples of this. Even Collingwood and Melbourne this year look to be coming good, as they have balanced up and have a decent senior group. Collingwood have Pendlebury, Wells, Howe, Greenwood and Sidebottom - and they added Dunn now too which has made a huge difference. Melbourne were rubbish and their young guys looked soft until they added Hibberd and Lewis to their senior group with Jones.

I honestly believe that if we were to add two solid, professional and hard senior guys (don't have to be superstars) to our team you'd instantly see our younger guys appear far, far better than they do now.

All true. Although i think it is this and a number of other factors from who you recruit, to how they are developed, to your game plan, on and off field leadership. All contribute to a culture of success. The other factor is the less financial clubs sometimes are forced to make short term decisions for financial reasons and we probably fit in this category. .
North are a bit of an anomaly, but i suspect they might be building a middle of the table team rather than a genuine premiership contender. also think they have a good coach.

[Saintmatt]

Last night the Swine had 11 former rookie listed players playing.

That doesn’t rely on 2nd and 3rd round picks to build does it?

‘Just sayin’

Correct. It relies on development. And therein lies the issue.

If I was Lethlean - my focus / blade - would now turn sharply towards anyone in our club who’s been involved in our development in the past 5 years.

Off with their heads ...

And Richardson was lauded as an expert in developing players based on his work at Port.

Been saying it for a while now, the Swans are the benchmark for developing rookies into AFL players and have been so for a long time, so we should really study there process. Seems its more than just development, they play a system of footy that makes it easier to insert a player to play a specific role. Not unlike Lyon, so no coincidence there.
Richo quite rightly delegates development to others so is reliant on his assistants, but was very highly regard in that role himself. maybe we arent investing the right resources into this area.

I know I've been harping on about it for a while - but development of young players always seems to coincide with teams that have a good group of senior players.

The teams that have remained competitive for long periods, have managed to keep their list balanced and keep young guys coming - whilst ensuring they have a good group of old guys at the same time. The teams that fall away and go in to 'rebuild' mode and seem to struggle to develop their young guys are the ones with a senior player vacuum.

Sydney, Geelong, Hawthorn, North and West Coast are examples of this. Even Collingwood and Melbourne this year look to be coming good, as they have balanced up and have a decent senior group. Collingwood have Pendlebury, Wells, Howe, Greenwood and Sidebottom - and they added Dunn now too which has made a huge difference. Melbourne were rubbish and their young guys looked soft until they added Hibberd and Lewis to their senior group with Jones.

I honestly believe that if we were to add two solid, professional and hard senior guys (don't have to be superstars) to our team you'd instantly see our younger guys appear far, far better than they do now.

There's a lot in this. I was speaking with an Assistant from the Swans over the weekend and he says the biggest single reason they have such an amazing ability to elevate from their rookie list without skipping a beat is their academy system. From the time a young player enters their club - they are part of the academy (this age is anywhere from 14 - for local NSW kids - through to draftees). They are then taught the 'Sydney Swans way'. This is then enforced via their own NEAFL team ... each and every week. It's also know as the Barcelona model - kids as early 7yo are recruited and drilled to play their way. So what you have is a group of talent - some high end, some not so - that already know the gameplan back the front and for all positions on the field from the minute they're elevated to the Senior team. No learning required - just getting used to the speed and step in quality of the opposition.

The other part is the Senior group. Again - using Sydney as an example - a kid like Ollie Florent can come into the team on a HFF/HBF and play his role - gradually moving into the midfield to complement Jack, Hanneberry, Kennedy et al. Conversely - we draft Hunter Clarke and expect/hope him to be Lenny Hayes but bugger all support from any senior quality. Sadly - our older players are poor footballers and innefective on-field leaders unable to show the way.

If the price was right - I'd kill for Rory Sloan to come to us - be made Captain - and then lead the way. Imagine having a respected midfielder as our on-field leader. I think it would be much like when Hammil arrived and GT made him captain in '03. Everyone stood taller and that alone would help us immeasurably right now.

[chico2001]

Speaking of Lethlean (or lethers... as it appears to those who know him intimately or think they do), at this stage he has not done one thing that we are aware of apart from move Elshaugh who was going at the end of the year anyway. So I am waiting for him to make top decisions for which he is getting paid handsomely. I dont think he is the right man for the job as no-one has actually come up with the major reason as to why he was hired including the club. What makes you think he is going to wave a magic wand?
Any manager can sack personnel but it is what you do after that which counts.

[saynta]

So who is his replacement going to be?

Lethers said he would have been moved on at season's end anyway, but he got shafted early. Makes me think Lethers has someone for the gig already.

Elshaugh and Lethlean went off to the under 18 championships together on saturday.

Make of that what you will.

[parkeysainter]

So who is his replacement going to be?

Lethers said he would have been moved on at season's end anyway, but he got shafted early. Makes me think Lethers has someone for the gig already.

Elshaugh and Lethlean went off to the under 18 championships together on saturday.

Make of that what you will.

Serious? Didn't he get relieved last Friday morning?

[Legendary]

C'mon guys settle down... this is a moment of great celebration!!!
The most incompetent list manager in the history of our club has been given the boot in the arse!!

He took us to rock bottom, and now, finally we can feel the winds of change blowing in the right direction... like a summer breeze.

I'm having a few cold ones tonight to celebrate... and make no apologies for doing so.

Finally we may actually recruit some talent...I feel so positive at the moment. Bring on the draft!!

Cheers everyone!

Elshaug was 50000000 times better than his predecessor, the abysmal John Peake.

Chris Pelchen was intimately involved in setting the direction of our recruiting and list strategy until Ameet Bains took over. Both of them were responsible for list management rather than Tony Elshaug.

Elshaug's sole job for most of the last 5 years (until this year) has been drafting young players. On that measure, his strike rate is comparable with the industry average. He certainly hasn't been a failure.

Let's also try not to forget... Trout came back from a breakdown in 2010 to help the Saints in September... according to Rosco he was responsible for some absolute gems in the box on match day in that finals series. Was Rosco's right hand man during the era when we played in three GF's. Deserves credit for his efforts.

Best of luck Tony - thanks for a bigger contribution to the Saints than anyone posting on this website.

[samoht]

It's one thing choosing player A over player B and getting that wrong - the worst of it is we kept drafting the same types with total disregard to overall team balance.
The result is we have multiples of average ruckmen, multiples of average inside midfielders, a multiple of half back flankers, a multiple of smalls --- and a dearth of skilled outside midfielders/runners, which is what we always needed for balance.
Clearly, we did not have an overall plan to build a balanced team, with skills and decision-making at the required level.

Is it any wonder then that we find ourselves where we are - that lowly Gold Coast ran rings around us and were destroying us until they finally (either) ran out of puff or decided to go defensive?
All a team needs to do is tag Steven, and we have no midfield run - our recruiters have genetically engineered our team with this one-dimensional, "inside top-heavy" DNA.

We need recruiters that recruit to a plan, and based on certain standards and with team balance in mind - not willy nilly. Any goose could do that - and a clean sweep out is/was long overdue.

People now calling for the coach to be sacked, should have been calling for the recruiters to be sacked years ago - they are the real culprits. A coach can be replaced, it's no big deal - but the DNA of the team remains, the recruiters' handiwork in shaping/mishaping the team and giving it its DNA will remain and be evident after they've gone.