We're on Track

[Flagless]

I think rebuilds always depend on your senior players.

You can rebuild around them.

It's when you have rubbish senior players that rebuilding takes time.

Unfortunately, that's where we're at.

So we just have to wait. It's on track.

Rebuilds also depend on the quality of players you're bringing in via trades and the draft.

Trades we've had some success with Carlisle being the clear winner, plus Bruce, Steele (although surplice to our requirements) and Membrey as a delisted FA. But then there was the trading of first round picks for Hickey and Lee. Yes, I know there were several extra elements to those trades, but after it all came out in the wash, we overpaid. Of course, there was Freeman also. Still may debut this year, but two years at the Pies and three with us, we have to be realistic.

As for the draft, its been a fail.

Jury's out as to whether Billings will evolve into a genuine A level player. Has had his small patches of brilliance, but five seasons on, he's so far been very overpriced at pick 3. Long is a bit similar, but this is only his second season admittedly.

Dunstan and Acres we're late first rounders - Acres is still an uneven player, but still looks like he can improve and potentially turn into an A grader, whereas Dunstan (whilst getting more of the footy than last season) is still just B level inside mid.

As for the 2014 draft, that really has been the spanner in the engine. Even if you don't necessarily nab the best player with pick 1, they still need to be a very good player and Paddy, for everything he "could" have been, will likely retire in the next two seasons. Yes, no one could have predicted this, but his diabetes was well documented and it still smacks of a knee-jerk selection to get a key forward after the Boyd deal with Footscray. Then there was Hugh Goddard, a late first round selection who'll likely be delisted at the end of the year. These selections were both made in our wooden spoon draft!!!

Gresh, for all his inconsistency, has been the standout selection and the only one who looks like he could evolve into a genuine star.

You can't really judge the value of drafts after 2013 - not enough time for players to develop to their full potential. So its just a prediction. Hard to draft future stars every draft, for every club. If you can draft players that will be best 22 for a finals side, plus a couple of guns, you have done well over a five year draft period. I don't want to go through all the draftees, but imo Billings, Gresham, Acres, Dunstan, Clark, Coffield, Long will be definitely best 22, with at least 3 of them having the potential to be A grade. Phillips, Rice,White are looking very likely, bit early for some others. McCartin has the talent, and if he gets a decent go in an improved forward line/structure he could well be A grade. McKenzie could be anything, but not a best 22 yet, same as Sinclair. Probably others I have missed.

Add A graders Steven, Carlisle, Ross (nearly) another good draft pick and hopefully one or two FA, and we're ON THE WAY!

The other major ingredient lacking is on field leadership, Geary just doesn't cut it

[chico2001]

I support them, go to the game when I can and watch every game on TV but I am not going to get on here and bulls*** about how good we are going to be next year with this current list. The club needs drastic rejuvenation in all areas and it needs to be starting now. The board said that we are top 4 material and thats bordering on unbelievable. Take away all the excuses and then see what you have left

[saintadamski]

Sam Fisher looked like absolute junk in his first few seasons.

Even Alex Rance was was fairly spuddish.


I'm not writing off the entire list just yet, I think it's way too early to be declaring anyone drafted in 2013 and after to be completely useless.

Sam Fisher never looked like junk to me...took about a season to kick in.

On the other hand, Paddy and Billings have looked like junk from day 1 for 4 to 5 years now...
Drafting mistakes made. Time to acknowledge, trade/relegate/de-list and replace with better players. Problem is we need a better recruiting manager first....and fast.

[rodgerfox]

Sam Fisher looked like absolute junk in his first few seasons.

Even Alex Rance was was fairly spuddish.


I'm not writing off the entire list just yet, I think it's way too early to be declaring anyone drafted in 2013 and after to be completely useless.

Sam Fisher never looked like junk to me...took about a season to kick in.

On the other hand, Paddy and Billings have looked like junk from day 1 for 4 to 5 years now...
Drafting mistakes made. Time to acknowledge, trade/relegate/de-list and replace with better players. Problem is we need a better recruiting manager first....and fast.

He averaged only 3.8 marks per game in this first 2 seasons - and ended with a career average of over 7.

And that was in a very dominant team. Averaged 11 touches a week too, whereas over his career he averaged 20.

He took time.

[saintadamski]

Again back to the stats - hello?
Fisher only played 7 games in his first season...you didn't tell everyone about that little tid bit, before crapping on his marking averages!
Also in the 2nd half of his 2nd season he was averaging 20 disposals a game...that doesn't take into consideration the countless marking spoils he made...what an absurd comparison.

Fisher was a fit , fast, awesome player. Comparing Paddy or Billings to him is bordering on blasphemy lol

The game is played much differently now with the zone as well. There's plenty of marks and possessions for all, without making an impact on the game whatsoever...especially when you kick backwards a million times.

[fugazi]

Billings has not looked like junk from day 1....he at times, has looked elite.
Some perspective please.
He is currently deep in a trough, but you could make the case for another dozen of his teammates....that is what is death knell for his coach

[fugazi]

Billings has not looked like junk from day 1....he at times, has looked elite.
Some perspective please.
He is currently deep in a trough, but you could make the case for another dozen of his teammates....that is what is death knell for his coach

[SMS]

2018 - Pick 3,Gaff
2019 - J.Kelly

2020 Grand Final Team
Webster. Austin. Coffield
White. Carlisle. Roberton
Gaff. Kelly. Clark
Billings. Bruce. Long
Gresham. McCartin. Membrey

Marshall. Steven. Dunstan

Acres, Freeman or Pick 3 (Rankine),E.Phillips, Ross

Emg: Claravino, Goddard, Battle, Savage, Newnes
Sinclair, Rice

[saintadamski]

Billings has not looked like junk from day 1....he at times, has looked elite.
Some perspective please.
He is currently deep in a trough, but you could make the case for another dozen of his teammates....that is what is death knell for his coach

Elite? Billings? lmao. He has played around 5 or 6 good games in 5 years.
Take the red white and black glasses off....Pretend for a second there are no teams...no red white and black....just players.
Have a good look at other players in the AFL....compare, analyse, measure, conclude.
Mistake made....trade and move on

[chico2001]

Good point adamski- pointing out the obvious. He has the rest of the year to prove us all wrong which is what we want.

takeaway , you probably got no idea about tracks but you are dead right in one aspect. In a previous post I reckon if the saints dont show some fight this year, then they are in the sights of being non existent in Victoria and hopefully moved to Tasmania and put someone competent in charge of the club and whilst at it, shake off some of the plebs who dont want the club to improve, those just satisfied with finishing last ......all the time.

Saints are already on notice to improve and thats from the horses mouth..mclacklan or whatever his name is.....Starting reading between the lines.

[rodgerfox]

Again back to the stats - hello?
Fisher only played 7 games in his first season...you didn't tell everyone about that little tid bit, before crapping on his marking averages!
Also in the 2nd half of his 2nd season he was averaging 20 disposals a game...that doesn't take into consideration the countless marking spoils he made...what an absurd comparison.

Fisher was a fit , fast, awesome player. Comparing Paddy or Billings to him is bordering on blasphemy lol

The game is played much differently now with the zone as well. There's plenty of marks and possessions for all, without making an impact on the game whatsoever...especially when you kick backwards a million times.

I didn't compare them as players.

[saintadamski]

Again back to the stats - hello?
Fisher only played 7 games in his first season...you didn't tell everyone about that little tid bit, before crapping on his marking averages!
Also in the 2nd half of his 2nd season he was averaging 20 disposals a game...that doesn't take into consideration the countless marking spoils he made...what an absurd comparison.

Fisher was a fit , fast, awesome player. Comparing Paddy or Billings to him is bordering on blasphemy lol

The game is played much differently now with the zone as well. There's plenty of marks and possessions for all, without making an impact on the game whatsoever...especially when you kick backwards a million times.

I didn't compare them as players.

You weren't?...now I'm really confused
I think I know what you're doing - trying to say that everyone has potential?
I'm going to have to disagree with you and say they don't. 5 years is more than telling

[dragit]

x

[rodgerfox]

Again back to the stats - hello?
Fisher only played 7 games in his first season...you didn't tell everyone about that little tid bit, before crapping on his marking averages!
Also in the 2nd half of his 2nd season he was averaging 20 disposals a game...that doesn't take into consideration the countless marking spoils he made...what an absurd comparison.

Fisher was a fit , fast, awesome player. Comparing Paddy or Billings to him is bordering on blasphemy lol

The game is played much differently now with the zone as well. There's plenty of marks and possessions for all, without making an impact on the game whatsoever...especially when you kick backwards a million times.

I didn't compare them as players.

You weren't?...now I'm really confused
I think I know what you're doing - trying to say that everyone has potential?
I'm going to have to disagree with you and say they don't. 5 years is more than telling

Not really.

Just saying that they could turn out to be good players, even though they have started fairly slowly. Plenty of really good players didn't burst onto the scene.

However back to the OP, good teams usually only become good teams when they have good senior players, good middle aged players, and a couple of young guns.

In terms of a rebuild, I still think we're on track to achieve that. The rebuild was only ever going to bear fruit when we had that list balance - and that was always only ever going to happen around 2020.

So we're spot on track to achieve that.



Whether it's a good enough list to win a flag once it's built - is a very different story.

[David-Lee]

Paddy in the seconds wouldn't help IMO, isn't he way too good for VFL standard. Isn't the best outcome for his fitness and development to play out the whole year without interruption, and hopefully with Bruce and Members along side him.

If that happens I recon we will see some cause for optimism towards the end of the season.

Bookmark this.

Is Paddy too good for VFL though? The times he has played there when he has been fit he hasn't exactly set the world on fire. From what I have seen of Battle he is a better mark, better kick and a much better athlete than Paddy is capable of being.

Battle is a better all round athlete - I rate him in much higher esteem - in fact, I think he will be a gun

Paddy had to kick a bag to get back in last year, Battle hasn't done that yet!!!!!

I have watched Josh since under 15's (closely), he may make it, but he won't be a gun!!!!!

Did I miss a game? When did Paddy ever kick a bag? Do you mean the 3 he kicked against GWS?
Is that a bag now? On a totally separate note...
I thought 5 + was a bag?
But Dermie said a player kicked a bag and he had 3 for the game! Is a bag 3+?

I think he was saying that Paddy had to kick that bag of 7 in the ressies to get his spot back.

I see. Yes I agree 7 doth qualify for a royal bag...even in the underleague

[desertsaint]

about the only thing we're on track for is to draft lukasius. but watch us stuff that up somewhere.

[Con Gorozidis]

I think we're on track.

Not the same track that the club spruiked in regards to 'top 4 by 2018' etc. etc., but on track in terms of improving naturally.


People have made two mistakes:

1) Believing the club's blueprint for success
2) Comparing our development to Melbourne's


Melbourne started building back in about 2010. They have added steadily since, and have only come good now. We didn't really get going with our rebuild until 2013.

To be any good, you need good old guys, really good middle age guys, and some good kids. Putting it simply.


In my opinion, we can't expect to be any good, until the Stevens, Ross', Bruces, Carlisles, Hickeys, etc are our old guys. We have such a void in the 'good old guys' space that it renders us useless. We had Dempster, Gilbert, Roo and Joey - now we don't. When we had those guys, we had a huge void in the 'really good middle age guys' space, and no good kids at all.

The way we're building, in 2-3 years these guys will be an outstanding senior core - and Billings, Gresham, Acres, Dunstan, Long, Steele, Marshall, Webster, Goddard, McCartin and co. will be a really good core of middle aged dudes. Coffield, Hunter-Clark and anyone drafted since then (including a top 3 pick this year) will be a really good crop of youngsters.

We will be a very good side in 2 years. Forget this year, we're playing like a team with no good senior players and heaps of injuries. Which guess what? We are.

Next year we will improve, and the year after we'll be really good.

If we can add a ready made player or two on top of this, we will be a very, very good team in 2 years. Bookmark it!

[Con Gorozidis]

I think we're on track.

Not the same track that the club spruiked in regards to 'top 4 by 2018' etc. etc., but on track in terms of improving naturally.


People have made two mistakes:

1) Believing the club's blueprint for success
2) Comparing our development to Melbourne's


Melbourne started building back in about 2010. They have added steadily since, and have only come good now. We didn't really get going with our rebuild until 2013.

To be any good, you need good old guys, really good middle age guys, and some good kids. Putting it simply.


In my opinion, we can't expect to be any good, until the Stevens, Ross', Bruces, Carlisles, Hickeys, etc are our old guys. We have such a void in the 'good old guys' space that it renders us useless. We had Dempster, Gilbert, Roo and Joey - now we don't. When we had those guys, we had a huge void in the 'really good middle age guys' space, and no good kids at all.

The way we're building, in 2-3 years these guys will be an outstanding senior core - and Billings, Gresham, Acres, Dunstan, Long, Steele, Marshall, Webster, Goddard, McCartin and co. will be a really good core of middle aged dudes. Coffield, Hunter-Clark and anyone drafted since then (including a top 3 pick this year) will be a really good crop of youngsters.

We will be a very good side in 2 years. Forget this year, we're playing like a team with no good senior players and heaps of injuries. Which guess what? We are.

Next year we will improve, and the year after we'll be really good.

If we can add a ready made player or two on top of this, we will be a very, very good team in 2 years. Bookmark it!

[saintadamski]

Haha ROTFLMAO!!!
Billings, Steele, Marshall, Goddard, McCartin, Newnes, Weller "good core" lololololololololol comedy gold!!!!!

[portosaint]

F*** me! Can we seriously do without the lol, lmfao, rotflmaoabcdefg bulls***?!

I feel like I'm reading text messages from my 15 year old daughter. Geeez

[saynta]

F*** me! Can we seriously do without the lol, lmfao, rotflmaoabcdefg bulls***?!

I feel like I'm reading text messages from my 15 year old daughter. Geeez

You might well be. Kids anyway.

[rodgerfox]

Haha ROTFLMAO!!!
Billings, Steele, Marshall, Goddard, McCartin, Newnes, Weller "good core" lololololololololol comedy gold!!!!!

I think McCartin, Billings and Steele will be part of a very good core.

And I think the young crop will be really good too.


I still absolutely think we're on track. As I said, once we have a decent, solid senior group. Which will be in 18 months to 2 years.

[saintadamski]

And I disagree with you ... please enlighten me. ... what have you seen on the field that could possibly make you believe that? Are you sure you're watching St Kilda play.
You may have watched Sydney and gotten the names wrong... honest mistake haha

[chico2001]

Cant see some of these players at St Kilda in 2 years. A new coach would be totally ruthless and so he should be.

[Con Gorozidis]

The perennial 'we will be good in two years' post.

Two years is far enough away so that it can't verified and near enough to give people hope.

Similar to the old fave - 'A.Hammil two weeks'.