On the Couch- brilliant

[SaintPav]

Makes depressing reading.

No quick fixes.

We’re stuffed.

[barneyboyz]

8 x games in Tassie
10 x games at Etihad
4 x away

Make the move. Long term financial stability and puts us front and centre in Tassie again. Tassie Saints no issue here. Pick up a few extra draft concessions and away.

Two bases one in Tassie and one in Moorabbin.

At least we might be hard to beat at two venues, eventually. Lets face it, after 140 odd years, 50 odd since a flag, it aint getting any easier. I got grand kids that might never see one otherwise

[To the top]

I did start a thread before the season commenced that this would be a year of watching individual performances and crossing our fingers

I then broke the players into certain watch list catagories

So we look to Carlisle - and Roberton on 2017 performances

Then those we have drafted with Draft Picks 25 and under because that is where our investment is - including Freeman

We have Steven

Then there may be a couple we have attracted from other Clubs because of the lack of opportunity at those Clubs - so fingers crossed they perform to a level to occasion regret at the Clubs they left

Then our experience where career performances are the limitation but, unfortunately they are the experience which remains and our Achilles heel because they dictate that pressure is exactly where we do not want it being on those Drafted in recent years for the reason that pressure on them is premature

The summary is that we watch for indications - as we saw with Dal Santo in a match v Sydney when he did something that made you think he could be something

Hopefully across the remainder of this very young season we come away from games thinking there is something there

Wins will take a bit more - and may be few and far between but this is a season of looking for signs and crossing our fingers, not necessarily wins

Clubs go thru those stages so stick fat and enjoy

And to one contributor, Unions are collectives of people with a common interest being vocation and the terms and conditions of employment in that vocation

They are a very important part of our society

Enjoy!!!

And I will continue to periodically peruse this site in case of any meaningful inside knowledge being conveyed such as Freeman's progress and commentary on VFL performances and the trials and tribulations of the Club struggling with what is on its shoulders and any improvement in the circumstances of the Club both off the field and on

[bigred]

8 x games in Tassie
10 x games at Etihad
4 x away

Make the move. Long term financial stability and puts us front and centre in Tassie again. Tassie Saints no issue here. Pick up a few extra draft concessions and away.

Two bases one in Tassie and one in Moorabbin.

At least we might be hard to beat at two venues, eventually. Lets face it, after 140 odd years, 50 odd since a flag, it aint getting any easier. I got grand kids that might never see one otherwise

Nah go ten games in Tassie.

Make it stick. I mean really, make it work.

And milk the AFL for absolutely everything they have got to get free flags.

[asiu]

better in Tassy than dead

[asiu]

and at the G

i like that edit

[barneyboyz]

8 x games in Tassie
10 x games at Etihad
4 x away

Make the move. Long term financial stability and puts us front and centre in Tassie again. Tassie Saints no issue here. Pick up a few extra draft concessions and away.

Two bases one in Tassie and one in Moorabbin.

At least we might be hard to beat at two venues, eventually. Lets face it, after 140 odd years, 50 odd since a flag, it aint getting any easier. I got grand kids that might never see one otherwise

Nah go ten games in Tassie.

Make it stick. I mean really, make it work.

And milk the AFL for absolutely everything they have got to get free flags.

Yeah, I didn't like leaving Tassie, just a pity that we couldn't win there and kept playing our bogey team Port

[spert]

Coaches with finals experience as player or senior coach who took us to finals- from memory.

Sheldon- premiership experience - Saints to finals
Alves - premiership experience - Saints to GF
GT- country premiership coach x4 - Saints to finals


Coaches with finals experience as player or coach who failed to take us to finals:
Jewell
Jezza
Patterson (almost)
Watters
Richo (so far)

No finals playing or senior coaching experience:
Jeans - Saints to premiership
RL- - Saints to 2 GFs
Gellie

Slight correction Spert - Ross Lyon was Sydney's Senior Assistant & midfield coach during their Premiership year. More than experienced (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-09-27/l ... ub-to-king)

Having said that - you're dead right - our entire coaching list of bereft of anyone who's had Premiership experience. Simon Lethlean said something very interesting recently - 'sooner or later, you need to get people into your club who know how to get it done'. A none too pointed jibe at our distinct lack of people at our club who have zero idea/experience on how to get it done.

I should have said as head coach rather than a senior assistant position- ta

[Saintmatt]

Coaches with finals experience as player or senior coach who took us to finals- from memory.

Sheldon- premiership experience - Saints to finals
Alves - premiership experience - Saints to GF
GT- country premiership coach x4 - Saints to finals


Coaches with finals experience as player or coach who failed to take us to finals:
Jewell
Jezza
Patterson (almost)
Watters
Richo (so far)

No finals playing or senior coaching experience:
Jeans - Saints to premiership
RL- - Saints to 2 GFs
Gellie

Slight correction Spert - Ross Lyon was Sydney's Senior Assistant & midfield coach during their Premiership year. More than experienced (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-09-27/l ... ub-to-king)

Having said that - you're dead right - our entire coaching list of bereft of anyone who's had Premiership experience. Simon Lethlean said something very interesting recently - 'sooner or later, you need to get people into your club who know how to get it done'. A none too pointed jibe at our distinct lack of people at our club who have zero idea/experience on how to get it done.

I should have said as head coach rather than a senior assistant position- ta

All good mate. Geez our coaching group at present is just totally bereft though. They talk about leadership on the ground being important; where the leadership amongst the coaching group?

[degruch]

Yeah, I didn't like leaving Tassie, just a pity that we couldn't win there and kept playing our bogey team Port

Exactly...Tassie sucked, lets not go there again, unless at gunpoint.

[saynta]

Yeah, I didn't like leaving Tassie, just a pity that we couldn't win there and kept playing our bogey team Port

Exactly...Tassie sucked, lets not go there again, unless at gunpoint.

I agree, I lived there once, arse end of the world.

And you can really feel that it is exactly that living there.

[spert]

To quote Richo: .."yeah/ nah"

[degruch]

Yeah, I didn't like leaving Tassie, just a pity that we couldn't win there and kept playing our bogey team Port

Exactly...Tassie sucked, lets not go there again, unless at gunpoint.

I agree, I lived there once, arse end of the world.

And you can really feel that it is exactly that living there.

It's a great place to visit, but we couldn't win a game of football down there against the Burnie Dockers first 8! Totally disrupted otherwise good seasons. Its weird that we seem to have retained some following down there despite being 'non-participants' for over a decade.

[freely]

Expect that following's because of the Riewoldt connection.

[repta]

NZ 10,000 members .... haha ....

Next time we trial games interstate, overseas or wherever (or on a marquee day like Good Friday), some advice.

TURN UP and WIN AT ALL COSTS.

Otherwise it is doomed to failure. Zero wins in New Zealand. 1 or 2 in Tassy?

Cant build a supporter base if the team doesnt show up and turn it on.

[saintsRrising]

Now

-There are different paths to success including through how you build a list.
-No one gets all their picks correct.

Now having made those two points with the Saints:

- We have very few outperforms. With most of our trades and draft picks we have under-performed. If not for the fringe FA's of Membrey and Robo it would be even worse. But remember all clubs pick up some good rejects and so again we have not out-performed in this regard
- With players gained from other clubs all have been fringe except for Carlisle who had "issues" when we gained him (and just after!!!). This is not how you become a Top 4 Team.
- FA is terms of guns has been a complete failure. The faith in the Saints being able to exploit this was way over-estimated and was probably based on such players choosing us only for $$$. Problem is genuine guns do not swap clubs based solely on $$$
- Rookies. Our poor picking of players is not confined to the main list. With Rookies in recent years we have so far only had one winner in Sinclair, and Marshall who looks likey. Again this is an outperform.

The pick swap with Hawthorn was one of our few wins. But remember this did not entail any quality judgements to be made except to total up the points (which any moron could do) . That 2 second picks were gained in year 1 and a first round in year 2 spread the risk, but in all scenarios we ended up in the positive. HOWEVER I suspect we mainly did this deal so that we could trade for a star in Year 2, and in this we failed.

One year later we counter that with trading our second rounder for pick 34. This entailed a judgement call on picks from 2 different years. It looks likely we have stuffed this up badly as that second rounder looks now to be early 20's.



BOTTOM LINE:
- We are a poor is assessing what players to recruit/draft. That Trout is still in charge of this boggles the mind. He has had enough of a record in this now that we know that he will continue to under-perform.
- We are poor at attracting quality players. Given our form of this year you would have to speculate that this is unlikely to change in 2018.

[MrCordz]

A lot of hindsight mastery from Paul Roos last night IMO.

I don't recall him coming out in 2014 - 2017 stating the Saints strategy is wrong or many on here dismissing the plan either.

Obviously it has not worked but they formulated a bold plan and went for it.
Better to do that than proceed aimlessly.

Now it's time to play the first half of the season, give the team the chance to turn it around and if not devise a new plan.

Roos has bagged the Saints ever since his mate RL departed. He is the king of hindsight mastery.

[Wayne42]

The AFL is compromised by the differing resources of Clubs, the reliance of the AFL on the success of those well resourced and well supported Clubs, father/son which gave advantage to certain Clubs, compromised Drafts because of entry Clubs and now Free Agency where players will seek to transfer to well resourced, successful Clubs to the detriment of struggling Clubs and now the prospect of a mid season Draft said to benefit struggling Clubs when the opposite will occur

This results from power and influence at the AFL Board Table with a number of Clubs compromised because they rely on AFL handouts to survive

It is a toxic mix from the top down - and Clubs such as St Kilda will struggle to survive

The structural damage is just too deep and too entrenched

The experience St Kilda rely on in attempting to become competitive is now Gilbert, Geary, Armitage returning from injury and Brown - so those Drafted with high picks are being asked to accept a responsibility with no relief because none of those experienced players would command a spot in any other side

The danger is that Free Agency and a mid season Draft further destroys the St Kilda list as talented youth depart looking for playing success

Under 20,000 last weekend was indicative of the problems - and particularly given the debt the Club has courtesy of Docklands

High Draft picks are players who performed at Under 18 level in the lead up to being drafted

And if they are then joining a Club with such a paucity of experienced talent (and none at St Kilda now) the on field problems escalate to the detriment of the competition

The AFL does not understand the damage it has done to the competition and the interest in it by pandering to who it panders to stoking egos of people with no interest in the game

Melbourne have rebuilt about 5 times in the last 10 years, they have made more mistakes than we have, look at them now, much better than us.
Why wasn't their rebuild under Roos affected by all the negatives listed in this post ?

[degruch]

The AFL is compromised by the differing resources of Clubs, the reliance of the AFL on the success of those well resourced and well supported Clubs, father/son which gave advantage to certain Clubs, compromised Drafts because of entry Clubs and now Free Agency where players will seek to transfer to well resourced, successful Clubs to the detriment of struggling Clubs and now the prospect of a mid season Draft said to benefit struggling Clubs when the opposite will occur

This results from power and influence at the AFL Board Table with a number of Clubs compromised because they rely on AFL handouts to survive

It is a toxic mix from the top down - and Clubs such as St Kilda will struggle to survive

The structural damage is just too deep and too entrenched

The experience St Kilda rely on in attempting to become competitive is now Gilbert, Geary, Armitage returning from injury and Brown - so those Drafted with high picks are being asked to accept a responsibility with no relief because none of those experienced players would command a spot in any other side

The danger is that Free Agency and a mid season Draft further destroys the St Kilda list as talented youth depart looking for playing success

Under 20,000 last weekend was indicative of the problems - and particularly given the debt the Club has courtesy of Docklands

High Draft picks are players who performed at Under 18 level in the lead up to being drafted

And if they are then joining a Club with such a paucity of experienced talent (and none at St Kilda now) the on field problems escalate to the detriment of the competition

The AFL does not understand the damage it has done to the competition and the interest in it by pandering to who it panders to stoking egos of people with no interest in the game

Melbourne have rebuilt about 5 times in the last 10 years, they have made more mistakes than we have, look at them now, much better than us.
Why wasn't their rebuild under Roos affected by all the negatives listed in this post ?

They did actually benefit from a lot of those negatives...they had useful father/sons, 10 years of high draft picks (thanks to some creative coaching...not tanking ), compensation picks, overly compensated for FA losses, coach paid for, decent resources with no crappy stadium deal, no high expectations or threat of disappearing (despite all the historical merger crap...seriously, a formation club, called 'Melbourne' was going to go???) and plenty of financial support (as we have had, but without the bad press.

I think they're proof you can be completely mis-managed and still come out of it okay...geez, Western Bulldogs and Richmond have both won premierships in the last 2 years, do we need any more evidence?

[prwilkinson]

The AFL is compromised by the differing resources of Clubs, the reliance of the AFL on the success of those well resourced and well supported Clubs, father/son which gave advantage to certain Clubs, compromised Drafts because of entry Clubs and now Free Agency where players will seek to transfer to well resourced, successful Clubs to the detriment of struggling Clubs and now the prospect of a mid season Draft said to benefit struggling Clubs when the opposite will occur

This results from power and influence at the AFL Board Table with a number of Clubs compromised because they rely on AFL handouts to survive

It is a toxic mix from the top down - and Clubs such as St Kilda will struggle to survive

The structural damage is just too deep and too entrenched

The experience St Kilda rely on in attempting to become competitive is now Gilbert, Geary, Armitage returning from injury and Brown - so those Drafted with high picks are being asked to accept a responsibility with no relief because none of those experienced players would command a spot in any other side

The danger is that Free Agency and a mid season Draft further destroys the St Kilda list as talented youth depart looking for playing success

Under 20,000 last weekend was indicative of the problems - and particularly given the debt the Club has courtesy of Docklands

High Draft picks are players who performed at Under 18 level in the lead up to being drafted

And if they are then joining a Club with such a paucity of experienced talent (and none at St Kilda now) the on field problems escalate to the detriment of the competition

The AFL does not understand the damage it has done to the competition and the interest in it by pandering to who it panders to stoking egos of people with no interest in the game

Melbourne have rebuilt about 5 times in the last 10 years, they have made more mistakes than we have, look at them now, much better than us.
Why wasn't their rebuild under Roos affected by all the negatives listed in this post ?

They did actually benefit from a lot of those negatives...they had useful father/sons, 10 years of high draft picks (thanks to some creative coaching...not tanking ), compensation picks, overly compensated for FA losses, coach paid for, decent resources with no crappy stadium deal, no high expectations or threat of disappearing (despite all the historical merger crap...seriously, a formation club, called 'Melbourne' was going to go???) and plenty of financial support (as we have had, but without the bad press.

I think they're proof you can be completely mis-managed and still come out of it okay...geez, Western Bulldogs and Richmond have both won premierships in the last 2 years, do we need any more evidence?

Melbourne were literally nurse fed by the AFL and the MCC into being a half decent football club again.

[Superboot]

Yeah, I didn't like leaving Tassie, just a pity that we couldn't win there and kept playing our bogey team Port

Exactly...Tassie sucked, lets not go there again, unless at gunpoint.

I agree, I lived there once, arse end of the world.

And you can really feel that it is exactly that living there.

It's a great place to visit, but we couldn't win a game of football down there against the Burnie Dockers first 8! Totally disrupted otherwise good seasons. Its weird that we seem to have retained some following down there despite being 'non-participants' for over a decade.

Probably traditional; Baldock, Stewart, Bonney etc.

Tim Lane once said that he was the only kid in his class who didn’t barrack for the Saints

[Linton Lodger]

We should be playing games in Ballarat, how on earth did we let the Bulldogs grab that! The Bulldogs have bugger all support in that Nth Western corridor, we have a fair bit.

[ace]

I wasn’t aware of the NZ member thing,or at least forgot about it. LOL!!! Absolute kindergarten fantasy stuff. The amount of failure in all those points made in 14 is staggering. Didn’t come within a bulls roar!

Hey but you never saw the Power Point slides.
They were premiership winners.

[happy feet]

A demographics analysis firm called iD - it stands for Informed Decisions carried out an analysis for the Richmond FC and four that they were targeting their membership activities in the wrong area. They made some recommendations about what areas to target and what to offer and the results were very successful. I think the story is still on their website www.id.com.au have a look.

[ace]

Yeah, I didn't like leaving Tassie, just a pity that we couldn't win there and kept playing our bogey team Port

Exactly...Tassie sucked, lets not go there again, unless at gunpoint.

I agree, I lived there once, arse end of the world.

And you can really feel that it is exactly that living there.

It's a great place to visit, but we couldn't win a game of football down there against the Burnie Dockers first 8! Totally disrupted otherwise good seasons. Its weird that we seem to have retained some following down there despite being 'non-participants' for over a decade.

Probably traditional; Baldock, Stewart, Bonney etc.

Tim Lane once said that he was the only kid in his class who didn’t barrack for the Saints

Then the Dawks moved into our territory by stealing Peter Hudson.
They have been moving in our territory and are still doing it in the City of Kingston just east of our Moorabbin ground.