Is anyone else worried?

[Drake Huggins]

I'm starting to feel a bit uneasy about some of the messages coming out of the Death Star. Old Gill has put us right on notice about our finances, which has us with the greatest debt of any Victorian Club. Our membership is also a concern. We were second last for members out of the Victorian clubs, beating home only the irrelevant Norf by a whisker in that category. Our preseason form is hardly going to send people rushing to the club to snap up memberships. In fact, we may have lost a few diehards after the past fortnight. Even the skiers and dogs have gone past us. It wasn't so long ago we were on par with Richmond. They're now aiming at 100,000 members, while we are trying for around 42K.

Is the timing of Gill's little blast coincidental with his trip to Tasmania? I believe the purpose of the trip is to save Tasmania's Football leagues from extinction. I can't help feeling there will be plenty of robust discussion about Tassie having a team in the AFL, sooner, rather than later. It's the only way to save the game in the long term on the Apple Isle. Which brings me to the point of the OP.

The last time our team was relevant was when RL was coach. That's seven long years ago. We have undergone two rebuilds in that time, the first, a misfire under the Pelican, who hastily left the job to the flathead. Our current rebuild appears to be falling short of the mark, with several glaring deficiencies still apparent. Still no outside, pacey, good ball users. No dynamic small to medium forwards who can turn a game and an opponent inside out. Apart from Shane Savage, we don't appear to have a lot of rebound out of defence, either. How has this happened? We've had lots of early draft picks and picked up some handy B graders in trades. These are the blokes every team needs, but ours appear to be amongst our best players.

My fear is that in the not too distant future, if we don't get our finances and rebuild of the list in order, keep missing finals and perform mediocrely, when the time comes, Gill will tap us on the shoulder and send us down there, or gulp, worse, ship us to the GC to prop up that schmozzle. Either scenario would be the death of our club. As Rachel Hunter said in her shampoo commercial, "It won't hippin overnight, but it will hippin."

Someone will end up down in Tassie. The current arrangements with Norf and Hawthorn do not satisfy the locals needs and they've made that very plain in the media. They want their own side down there and in the current climate and with the future of footy at stake down there, it will have to happen. Eventually. The AFL has repeatedly stated it doesn't want to hand out any more new licenses, so relocation is the obvious solution for both the AFL and Tassie. The obvious candidates are Norf and unfortunately, us. Years away maybe, but so was the last time we played in a final.

[saintspremiers]

Gil can go f*** himself.

Had we had a FAIR stadium deal for the past 17 years like what we’ve got now you could add $2M to the bottom line EVERY YEAR THIS FRIGGIN CENTURY!!!

[MC Gusto]

If tassie meant flags a la Syd and Brian I’m there baby

[iwantmeseats]

Not sure about the relocation thing...
But anyone who thinks we will make the 8 this year is living in a fools paradise.
This team looks shockingly vanilla. There is really precious little there.

[SaintPav]

I’m worried too, but as a supporter I can’t ever remember a time when I wasn’t.

I’m going to suspend judgement. I’ll give it four weeks.

I’m really worried about 2 players and both play in defence. One has zero rebound ability while the other is limited. You might be able to can carry one stopper in defence (he better let zero goals get through to make up for it) but you definitely can’t carry 2.

[degruch]

Meh...I've been here before, and we've survived worse.

[SaintPav]

Ostrich effect.

[degruch]

Not quite, some supporters just have more ticker than others. Had we won two practice matches we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Bruce G McAbee]

The first 2 games will tell against teams we should beat. If we are mediocre with them and just win or worse lose to either of them at Etihad, that will confirm our fears.

[SaintPav]

Not quite, some supporters just have more ticker than others.

Strawman argument

Had we won two practice matches we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Catch 22 logic. A circular argument.

[Linton Lodger]

What exactly has the pompous schoolboy said?

There is one reason and one reason only for our financial state and that's the exploitative and corrupt stadium deal contrived by the AFL. Where else in the known Universe do you lose money with a crowd of 25,000?

Most sporting teams in the world, including in the Premier League (with the exception of the big teams) would be delighted with the crowds we get in ordinary seasons.

That smarmy wanker can go and f**k himself.

I don't know precisely what Gilligan did say, but I would suggest that Finnis publicly respond to such comments with: "So how is the AFL going to compensate us for the corrupt stadium deal it forced the St Kilda FC into?" Then he might publicise the intricate grubby details of that stadium deal and who the snouts in the trough were.

Then he should ring Gilligan and say: "Unless you want one of your Clubs litigating for compensation over corrupt stadium deals, shut the f**k up". Then I might add a parting comment: "mate, if you think AFLX will be your legacy, then you really are an intellectually deficient wanker".

That's the only way to deal with men such as Gilligan McLachlan.

[degruch]

Not quite, some supporters just have more ticker than others.

Strawman argument.

Armchair response to a factual statement?

Had we won two practice matches we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Catch 22 logic. A circular argument.[/quote]

Not really...when have you seen this D&G raised during the pre-season to date? Our financial situation has been documented, our membership reflects a club who has achieved little success in several years and has no household names, Tassie would be speculation at best and could theoretically have been on the cards since the 90's...but until today I've heard crickets chirping. What's circular about that?

[Linton Lodger]

If tassie meant flags a la Syd and Brian I’m there baby

Sydney were propped up by the AFL for 22 years in Sydney and were never actually viable for that period, before they fluked a Premiership as the 5the best team in 2005. Their first real Premiership was in 2012.

How are Brisbane going now? Gee packing them in aren't they, in a State that doesn't give a hoot about AFL footy. They didn't win their Premierships because of relocation, the won them by building a good list and appointing Leigh Matthews as Coach.

[SaintPav]

Not quite, some supporters just have more ticker than others.

Strawman argument.

Armchair response to a factual statement?

Had we won two practice matches we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Catch 22 logic. A circular argument.

Not really...when have you seen this D&G raised during the pre-season to date? Our financial situation has been documented, our membership reflects a club who has achieved little success in several years and has no household names, Tassie would be speculation at best and could theoretically have been on the cards since the 90's...but until today I've heard crickets chirping. What's circular about that?[/quote]

===========================================

When in doubt, revert to jibba jabba.

[degruch]

Not quite, some supporters just have more ticker than others.

Strawman argument.

Armchair response to a factual statement?

Had we won two practice matches we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Catch 22 logic. A circular argument.

Not really...when have you seen this D&G raised during the pre-season to date? Our financial situation has been documented, our membership reflects a club who has achieved little success in several years and has no household names, Tassie would be speculation at best and could theoretically have been on the cards since the 90's...but until today I've heard crickets chirping. What's circular about that?

===========================================

When in doubt, revert to jibba jabba.[/quote]

So, don't have an answer? The answer is, no...even though everything in the OP was active in the background the sky didn't fall until we lost our second practice match. Someone call the club and let them know.

Gee, all this countering your own statements, quippy one liners that contribute nothing and overuse the phrase 'circular argument', I could swear you've been possessed by the spirit of P66 lately Pav ol' chum!

[SaintPav]

Christ, you love your red herrings.

It's circular logic to say that if we would have won, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. All your responses are non-sensical.

Read your first dismissive and arrogant response on this thread. You really are projecting.

[degruch]

Christ, you love your red herrings.

It's circular logic to say that if we would have won, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. All your responses are none sensical.

Read your first dismissive and arrogant response on this thread. You really are projecting.

Circular logic is starting and ending with the same point...I can separate it into 'had we won' and 'had we lost' scenarios if it removes the question of logical fallacy (urgh...now I'm saying it)?

Dismissive, yes...arrogant, not intentionally...was a pretty casual statement...are you sure I'm the one projecting?

Anyway, you're saying we haven't been in a worse position and supporters haven't survived, the club is unaware and we should all freak out? I just believe the loss of 2 training runs is a lousy premise for panic in March, I'm not sure why punters would be quite so nervous at this point of the year, other than we're still collapsing under the weight of 2017's expectation?

[Vazelos]

I may be off the mark but I think he said that to get any cynical people off his back who think he looked after his boyhood club.
Look at what has happened the last few years:
Sends us key AFL people to help run the club
Strongly supports & helps finance the Moorabbin rebuild with AFL monies & Govt backing
Finalises an Etihad deal that apprently will bring in 2 million a year on current gate numbers...

If ever the AFL has looked after us its been the last few years...

The clip ove rthe ear remark was a bit unfair but I think he did it to ensure no recourse back on him re favoritism etc...

[SaintPav]

Christ, you love your red herrings.

It's circular logic to say that if we would have won, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. All your responses are none sensical.

Read your first dismissive and arrogant response on this thread. You really are projecting.

Circular logic is starting and ending with the same point...I can separate it into 'had we won' and 'had we lost' scenarios if it removes the question of logical fallacy (urgh...now I'm saying it)?

Dismissive, yes...arrogant, not intentionally...was a pretty casual statement...are you sure I'm the one projecting?

Anyway, you're saying we haven't been in a worse position and supporters haven't survived, the club is unaware and we should all freak out? I just believe the loss of 2 training runs is a lousy premise for panic in March, I'm not sure why punters would be quite so nervous at this point of the year, other than we're still collapsing under the weight of 2017's expectation?

If we won two practice matches (X), we wouldn't be having this conversation (Y).

or stated another way.

We're having this conversation (X), because we didn't win two practice matches (Y)

X is true because of Y.

Y is true because of X.

This is circular reasoning.

[iwantmeseats]

Its got nothing at ALL to do with winning or losing,. these games.,
It is all about what you see/dont see.

I see and dont see enough to be able to imagine that game style against other opposition, and well.....yeah.
Really expectations for me are for about where we finished last year.
There is no way in hell anyone can convince me they have seen anything that bodes well for a bigger year than 2017.
If it wasnt for Paddy McCartin actually making it through a couple of games, Id say there was literally zero development on where we where at in pre season 2017.

[degruch]

I think, using my initial dismissive that's simplifying the overall statement, but thankyou for clearing that up.

I understand it's only a handful of posters, but I can't fathom the sheer panic at the moment...I'm getting 2007 flashbacks, when the world was caving in and a bottom 2 position was assured, only for us to narrowly miss the finals.

[SaintPav]

Its got nothing at ALL to do with winning or losing,. these games.,
It is all about what you see/dont see.

I see and dont see enough to be able to imagine that game style against other opposition, and well.....yeah.
Really expectations for me are for about where we finished last year.
There is no way in hell anyone can convince me they have seen anything that bodes well for a bigger year than 2017.
If it wasnt for Paddy McCartin actually making it through a couple of games, Id say there was literally zero development on where we where at in pre season 2017.

Basically.

[degruch]

Last year we absolutely whalloped the Carlton witches hats at Ikon, but struggled a little against them during the season.

We narrowly lost to Sydney at a neutral venue, yet were thumped by them at home during the season.

The only game that looked (from a result perspective) like one of our H&A results was our narrow loss to Port at home.

Personnel were missing from these games...some guys had interrupted or no pre-season...some didn't...some were played out of position. I can't remember our 'game plan' looking much like what we executed during 2017 and I think these results illustrate why you can't read much into it. However, like I'm seeing the guys get a reasonable run, gaining some confidence and some kids getting exposure, as much as a whole load of crap play, you'll see what you want to see to some extent.

[Drake Huggins]

Not quite, some supporters just have more ticker than others. Had we won two practice matches we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It has nothing to do with ticker, Degruch, and we've seen too many tough times as saints. Many fans on here have been following us for 40 years plus, so I doubt I'd been accusing them of lacking ticker. I don't know any group of fans, who, collectively have more. All of the factors that would make us a source of speculation about relocation are currently in place. Poor membership numbers, poor performance, worst debt level of any Victorian club, etc.....these were the same factors that pushed Fitzroy and South Melbourne under.

These are different times of course and things have changed, but our relevance and value to the competition will determine our ultimate fate, as their is now real competition for an AFL licence. Nineteen into eighteen won't go and you can bet that Tassie will get in, eventually. As long as the TV stations demand 9 games a round and get them, they'll be happy. They don't give a stuff whether one or two minor clubs merge, go under or relocate. It's in their interests to get ratings, which we're struggling to deliver as well. The signs are not great. Delusion as to where we're at is not an effective medium or long term strategy.

[CQ SAINT]

I'm starting to feel a bit uneasy about some of the messages coming out of the Death Star. Old Gill has put us right on notice about our finances, which has us with the greatest debt of any Victorian Club. Our membership is also a concern. We were second last for members out of the Victorian clubs, beating home only the irrelevant Norf by a whisker in that category. Our preseason form is hardly going to send people rushing to the club to snap up memberships. In fact, we may have lost a few diehards after the past fortnight. Even the skiers and dogs have gone past us. It wasn't so long ago we were on par with Richmond. They're now aiming at 100,000 members, while we are trying for around 42K.

Is the timing of Gill's little blast coincidental with his trip to Tasmania? I believe the purpose of the trip is to save Tasmania's Football leagues from extinction. I can't help feeling there will be plenty of robust discussion about Tassie having a team in the AFL, sooner, rather than later. It's the only way to save the game in the long term on the Apple Isle. Which brings me to the point of the OP.

The last time our team was relevant was when RL was coach. That's seven long years ago. We have undergone two rebuilds in that time, the first, a misfire under the Pelican, who hastily left the job to the flathead. Our current rebuild appears to be falling short of the mark, with several glaring deficiencies still apparent. Still no outside, pacey, good ball users. No dynamic small to medium forwards who can turn a game and an opponent inside out. Apart from Shane Savage, we don't appear to have a lot of rebound out of defence, either. How has this happened? We've had lots of early draft picks and picked up some handy B graders in trades. These are the blokes every team needs, but ours appear to be amongst our best players.

My fear is that in the not too distant future, if we don't get our finances and rebuild of the list in order, keep missing finals and perform mediocrely, when the time comes, Gill will tap us on the shoulder and send us down there, or gulp, worse, ship us to the GC to prop up that schmozzle. Either scenario would be the death of our club. As Rachel Hunter said in her shampoo commercial, "It won't hippin overnight, but it will hippin."

Someone will end up down in Tassie. The current arrangements with Norf and Hawthorn do not satisfy the locals needs and they've made that very plain in the media. They want their own side down there and in the current climate and with the future of footy at stake down there, it will have to happen. Eventually. The AFL has repeatedly stated it doesn't want to hand out any more new licenses, so relocation is the obvious solution for both the AFL and Tassie. The obvious candidates are Norf and unfortunately, us. Years away maybe, but so was the last time we played in a final.

I dont think it is very likely that a Melbourne club will need to relocate at all.

The AFL will flog the death out of the GCS until they are so irrelevant and so deep in debt that they will have no choice but to fold and that will happen long before it happens to North or St.Kilda.or before NSW gets a third team.

Then the plan B Tassie investment will come into play and the gap in the draw will be there. The AFL.have the money to solve Tassie's problems at the flick of a switch and the talent pool there is much more accessible than it is North of Brisbane.

We have a lot more chance of landing Tom Lynch next year than Tassie has of getting a team and doing so would serve our long-term purpose two fold. We have already staked a strategic bid for him and the looting of Qld clubs of high profile players that are recruited ftom historic AFL dominant states will continue to hamper AFL develop in Queensland until it implodes. It is a dead horse and all this talk about Tamania is just noise to silence the death knells.

The GCS will crumble and a financially sustainable Qld league that feeds the Lions and state development squads will emerge. That is all that will come of the many millions the AFL is pouring into Qld.

The talent pool in Tassie is far more accessible than in NRL dominated Regional Queensland and having lived in Central Queensland and been involved in both local and state AFL development for 20 years, I can tell you that grassroots AFL is in a sorry state since the birth of the GCS.

In Gympie, Wide Bay, Rockhampton and Mackay, where I have been involved as a player and league and club official for 2 decades, clubs are struggling to field reserve grade teams and many guys like me play A grade into their 40's. The end of the mining boom hit these places hard and most of the ex-pat Victorian, South Australian and Western Australian working footballers have gone home and they took their kids with them.

I have watched many ex- pat families who established themselved in the 90's and 00's move South to give their talented kids a chance to play in better competitions.

20 years ago these leagues where thriving.

The biggest growth currently, is in womens football but that will take 20 years to influence the male side of the code.

Yes there has been lots of investment in Queensland but within the parameters you set in your statement above our 41000 members and 100000 supporters out weighs this whole State and our debt is a mere drop in the ocean.