Club explanation

[Darth Vader]

I have read the age article - no problems with it. To fix the NBN now will cost over 100bn - better to have done it properly the first time, even if it cost 80bn.

Or better yet not done it at all rather than knock something half-baked up by Rudd and Conroy on the back of a napkin (literally) then leave it to the next guy to tidy up after you get kicked out.

[kosifantutti]

Can we cut the politics and just get back to taking pot shots at each other.

[saynta]

Can we cut the politics and just get back to taking pot shots at each other.

[To the top]

Anyone defending this government and the outcome of its impact on the NBN, delivering a sub standard facility to homes, businesses and facilities, has a monumental job ahead of them - as the majority of public opinion will attest

In regards government, and the description on these pages of the Whitlam government, in the first 100 days:-

Abolished Conscription and National Service
Pulled troops out of Vietnam
Established diplomatic relations with China
Lowered the voting age to 18
Re-opened equal pay for women case
Scrapped British Honours list
Banned sporting contact with South Africa
Lifted education, transport and health funding
Gave Public Servant's an extra week's holiday leave (to 4 weeks a year)
Axed Sales Tax on the contraceptive pill
Began search for a new National Anthem
Announced paid maternity leave for Public Servants
Froze new leases on lands claimed by aborigines
Lifted censorship on banned publications
Boosted pensions and social security benefits

In the first 100 days!

No wonder Conservatives were, and still are, incensed at the change of order Whitlam ushered in.

[takeaway]

I agree with you TTT. Whitlam did more positive long term things for Australia in his brief tenure than all those after put together, including the ALP Govts.

Even an old foe, Malcolm Fraser, who became a great friend of Whitlam, has stated to this effect. We are now back in the quagmire of nothing happening and going backwards.

HOWEVER, there are other forums for this stuff, and we should get back to football.

[Joffa Burns]

And let us never forget that Whitlam stopped Conscription, Conscription which had cost over 300, 20 year old Australians their lives in Vietnam because their names were drawn from a barrel - and multiples of that number problems for life

And withdrew Australia from the Vietnam conflict where the Americans uttimately fled with their tails between their legs

So, 50 years on, what was the impact of those 20 year olds at the commencement of their lives being conscripted and sent to their death in Vietnam?

Now, now let’s put things into perspective.

YES, Whitlam did end conscription, which I feel most Australians were truly grateful.

However, withdrawal of Australian troops from Vietnam commenced November (may have been December) 1970. It was a ‘phased withdrawal’. More troops were withdrawn in April 1971. In July 1971 the Prime Minister Bill McMahon, advised Australian operation would cease in October that year. The last Australian battalion left Vietnam in December 1971.

The forces who remained were ‘Advisors’, training Vietnam troops.

Whitlam only finished off in 1973 what had already been commenced by the previous conservative government. So don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story TTT.

Also I think you’ll find your statement , “Conscription which had cost over 300, 20 year old Australians their lives IN Vietnam.....”, to be out by 100 conscripts.

202 conscripts were killed. IMHO, that was one conscript too many, but that is only my opinion. I’m just pointing out facts to you.

I think if you wish to continue to lecture us Saintsational dunderheads (on a football forum) on politics, corporate governance/ethics or military history, please try to provide us with facts, not jaundiced opinions. Otherwise if we repeat your claims elsewhere, we may be shown up as pedaling half baked claims, which will make us look complete dunderheads!

I do appreciate and like reading your opinions on football matters, even though I disagree with your opinions on Geary; however, opinions are just like ar$eholes we all have them, some are not as odious as others!!!!

Brilliantly written Loris and thank you for the history lesson.

I am a keen student of WWI & WWII but have not yet progressed to Korea or Vietnam in any depth.
Being born in 1962 I have recollection of Vietnam on TV as a child and though I lean to the conservative side of politics now due to my vocation of the last 25 years, I vividly recall handing out how to vote Labour flyers as a child for the ’72 & ’72 elections as dad (recently departed mad saints man) was a long term member of the Labour Party.

Though a conservative, I list my Australian political hero as John Curtain and am also a fan of Whitlam for his innovation in education and woman’s rights but more so his rebuke of Sir Winston Turnbull (the Country Member) and his pro-abortion line delivered to the heckler at the Bankstown rally (from memory of what I have read). One only wishes the Whitlam government had the fiscal discipline of the Hawke/Keating era.

I respect your point of view and agree that pedalling half-baked claims and trying to pass them off as fact certainly drags us less educated forumites to dunderhead level and thank you for pointing out the inaccuracies to the less informed such as myself.

I certainly hope we have reached our fill of posts bemoaning trickle-down economics, self-regulation, privatisation and the Murdoch media it is like seeing a comedian each year at the comedy festival who hasn’t updated his material and is hoping no one remembers his last show as he has used his full repertoire.

[saynta]

Anyone defending this government and the outcome of its impact on the NBN, delivering a sub standard facility to homes, businesses and facilities, has a monumental job ahead of them - as the majority of public opinion will attest

In regards government, and the description on these pages of the Whitlam government, in the first 100 days:-

Abolished Conscription and National Service
Pulled troops out of Vietnam
Established diplomatic relations with China
Lowered the voting age to 18
Re-opened equal pay for women case
Scrapped British Honours list
Banned sporting contact with South Africa
Lifted education, transport and health funding
Gave Public Servant's an extra week's holiday leave (to 4 weeks a year)
Axed Sales Tax on the contraceptive pill
Began search for a new National Anthem
Announced paid maternity leave for Public Servants
Froze new leases on lands claimed by aborigines
Lifted censorship on banned publications
Boosted pensions and social security benefits

In the first 100 days!

No wonder Conservatives were, and still are, incensed at the change of order Whitlam ushered in.

Your last comment is pure make believe, and not true

This is my last comment on this subject as you have your views an I have mine. Neither of us is going to change, Credit where credit is due though.

AS YOU SAY THEY DID DO SOME TIMELY GOOD THINGS.

But, you forgot to add how crooked they were and their attempts to borrow millions of dollars from Gaddaffi, through a corrupt and shadowy broker.

Rex Conners, Jim Cairns, Lionel Murphy and Al Grassby, crooks each and every one of them.. Disgracefull. They should have all ended up in gaol.

I was close to the action at the time , although young ,I held a responsible position at the time in the federal government and knew what was going on. Appears now that the Queen did as well.

Gough did however give me a 17 1/2 % pay rise and 4 weeks leave.

Although, Bob and his mate Paul took my pay rise all back and then some with their 17 1/2 % interest rates on my mortgage.

[Joffa Burns]

In regards government, and the description on these pages of the Whitlam government, in the first 100 days:-

Abolished Conscription and National Service
Pulled troops out of Vietnam
Established diplomatic relations with China
Lowered the voting age to 18
Re-opened equal pay for women case
Scrapped British Honours list
Banned sporting contact with South Africa
Lifted education, transport and health funding
Gave Public Servant's an extra week's holiday leave (to 4 weeks a year)
Axed Sales Tax on the contraceptive pill
Began search for a new National Anthem
Announced paid maternity leave for Public Servants
Froze new leases on lands claimed by aborigines
Lifted censorship on banned publications
Boosted pensions and social security benefits

In the first 100 days!

No wonder Conservatives were, and still are, incensed at the change of order Whitlam ushered in.

I agree with you to the top, this breakneck pace and lack of adherence to strict & sound fiscal strategy & ensured the increase spending of public expenditure quickly reached an unsustainable level plunging the economy into crisis.

You are correct, this change and policy implementation within 100 days was reckless.

I agree that these innovative and long reaching positive changes would be Gough’s greatest legacy if planned and managed them on a sound financial platform.

[Darth Vader]

Fair to say no-one ever convinced anyone of anything in a debate on an internet forum. On this topic, 45% will lean left, 45% will lean right, and the remaining 10% will swing either way not that there’s anything wrong with that, and no-one will change their original position on anything. What it has to do with St Kilda football club is not obvious.

[jonesy]

Gough one of GT’s great ideas. Anzac Day medalist in the rain few years later running around in the border hoppers league

[saynta]

Fair to say no-one ever convinced anyone of anything in a debate on an internet forum. On this topic, 45% will lean left, 45% will lean right, and the remaining 10% will swing either way not that there’s anything wrong with that, and no-one will change their original position on anything. What it has to do with St Kilda football club is not obvious.

Correct.

[Joffa Burns]

Gough one of GT’s great ideas. Anzac Day medalist in the rain few years later running around in the border hoppers league

Ladies and gentleman, well may we say God Save GT, because nothing will save the The President Butterrs

[loris]

Gough one of GT’s great ideas. Anzac Day medalist in the rain few years later running around in the border hoppers league

Ladies and gentleman, well may we say God Save GT, because nothing will save the The President Butterrs

A tie for Gold here Gentlemen........ I cannot split you.

I love the wit on this site, defuses all the poppycock and bunkum we prattle on about at times....just love it

[Trev from the Bush]

I agree the NBN is flawed. Mine is so reliable I have (too much) access to this mindless crap!

Sent from my Wireless NBN using Crappatalk

PS: Thankyou Loris for setting the historically flawed TTT straight. I have read a few of the card-carrying member of Gough's fan club's posts on this thread and nearly shaken my head off at his authoritative howlers. I was a year short of voting age in '72 but old enough to be politically aware. Probably would have been swept up in the wave of emotion and gone with Gough just like the muppets did with Rudd in '07. No doubt we are at an age where we are (a) old enough to clearly remember the past 45 years; (b) hanging in their mentally before dementia kicks in; or (c) just plumb ignorant!

[mr six o'clock]

I have read the age article - no problems with it. To fix the NBN now will cost over 100bn - better to have done it properly the first time, even if it cost 80bn.

Or better yet not done it at all rather than knock something half-baked up by Rudd and Conroy on the back of a napkin (literally) then leave it to the next guy to tidy up after you get kicked out.

Always thought it would be a waste of money
That's what we do best in this country

[loris]

I agree the NBN is flawed. Mine is so reliable I have (too much) access to this mindless crap!

Sent from my Wireless NBN using Crappatalk

PS: Thankyou Loris for setting the historically flawed TTT straight. I have read a few of the card-carrying member of Gough's fan club's posts on this thread and nearly shaken my head off at his authoritative howlers. I was a year short of voting age in '72 but old enough to be politically aware. Probably would have been swept up in the wave of emotion and gone with Gough just like the muppets did with Rudd in '07. No doubt we are at an age where we are (a) old enough to clearly remember the past 45 years; (b) hanging in their mentally before dementia kicks in; or (c) just plumb ignorant!

I'll admit to (c) Trev.

When I think back on my life and recall all those ideological 'truths' I espoused with arrogant confidence, bejesus I must have been a bore - so I'll put my hand up for a definite (c) and cross my fingers I'm staving off (b) for some time yet.

[parkeysainter]

http://www.news.com.au/technology/onlin ... a12a851ba0

[loris]

And let us never forget that Whitlam stopped Conscription, Conscription which had cost over 300, 20 year old Australians their lives in Vietnam because their names were drawn from a barrel - and multiples of that number problems for life

And withdrew Australia from the Vietnam conflict where the Americans uttimately fled with their tails between their legs

So, 50 years on, what was the impact of those 20 year olds at the commencement of their lives being conscripted and sent to their death in Vietnam?

Now, now let’s put things into perspective.

YES, Whitlam did end conscription, which I feel most Australians were truly grateful.

However, withdrawal of Australian troops from Vietnam commenced November (may have been December) 1970. It was a ‘phased withdrawal’. More troops were withdrawn in April 1971. In July 1971 the Prime Minister Bill McMahon, advised Australian operation would cease in October that year. The last Australian battalion left Vietnam in December 1971.

The forces who remained were ‘Advisors’, training Vietnam troops.

Whitlam only finished off in 1973 what had already been commenced by the previous conservative government. So don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story TTT.

Also I think you’ll find your statement , “Conscription which had cost over 300, 20 year old Australians their lives IN Vietnam.....”, to be out by 100 conscripts.

202 conscripts were killed. IMHO, that was one conscript too many, but that is only my opinion. I’m just pointing out facts to you.

I think if you wish to continue to lecture us Saintsational dunderheads (on a football forum) on politics, corporate governance/ethics or military history, please try to provide us with facts, not jaundiced opinions. Otherwise if we repeat your claims elsewhere, we may be shown up as pedaling half baked claims, which will make us look complete dunderheads!

I do appreciate and like reading your opinions on football matters, even though I disagree with your opinions on Geary; however, opinions are just like ar$eholes we all have them, some are not as odious as others!!!!

Brilliantly written Loris and thank you for the history lesson.

I am a keen student of WWI & WWII but have not yet progressed to Korea or Vietnam in any depth.
Being born in 1962 I have recollection of Vietnam on TV as a child and though I lean to the conservative side of politics now due to my vocation of the last 25 years, I vividly recall handing out how to vote Labour flyers as a child for the ’72 & ’72 elections as dad (recently departed mad saints man) was a long term member of the Labour Party.

Though a conservative, I list my Australian political hero as John Curtain and am also a fan of Whitlam for his innovation in education and woman’s rights but more so his rebuke of Sir Winston Turnbull (the Country Member) and his pro-abortion line delivered to the heckler at the Bankstown rally (from memory of what I have read). One only wishes the Whitlam government had the fiscal discipline of the Hawke/Keating era.

I respect your point of view and agree that pedalling half-baked claims and trying to pass them off as fact certainly drags us less educated forumites to dunderhead level and thank you for pointing out the inaccuracies to the less informed such as myself.

I certainly hope we have reached our fill of posts bemoaning trickle-down economics, self-regulation, privatisation and the Murdoch media it is like seeing a comedian each year at the comedy festival who hasn’t updated his material and is hoping no one remembers his last show as he has used his full repertoire.

Oooophs I must correct an inadvertent error (typo) I made in my history lesson JB.

I wrote ....... “The forces who remained were ‘Advisors’, training Vietnam troops”. That should read, South Vietnamese troops. I must be factual, otherwise I’m the pot calling the kettle black!!!

We had similar Dad’s JB, though I think mine was more left than yours.
He was a card carrying member of The Australian Communist Party, which was a bit hard to stomach as kids, as in the 50’s & early 60’s Menzies had everyone looking for Commies under the beds.

My sister and I, after we had our banjo lesson in the city of a Saturday morning, during the 1950’s we had to meet Dad outside Myer where he would be selling the Guardian newspaper ......... shouting out, “Get Your Worker’s paper, buy the Guardian”. I used to be so embarrassed I was always fearful some kid from school would see me there. At that age all one ever wants is to have is their parents to be like every other kids parents, not a radical. And the abuse he used to get directed at him from some shoppers wasn’t too nice. Often the Police would move him on...... so, so humiliating.

Worse was when elections were on. In those days, Pollies would spruik at Town Halls, or on the back of trucks etc. Dad would target Sir Robert Menzies, he would take us along (don’t know why) and he’d be up the back of the hall heckling Menzies. Well that was grist for the mill for Menzies, as he was such a great orator, he would make Dad look a complete idiot. Yep, so hard having a Dad that took on the status quo in the 1950’s. However he did mellow over the years, he became firm buddies with Dr Evatt and became a member of the ALP. Eventually I grew to understand and respect Dad’s courage of his convictions, but it was so hard to swallow when I was very young.

Years later I got to read the Victoria Police Special Branch file that they had on Dad ........ pity he had died by then and I could never tell him what was in it.

[BackFromUSA]

Back from overseas business trip. Locking this thread until I have enough time to split it and move each post on politics / NBN to the general forum. Thanks to all those who ignored the fact that this is a footy forum. Your selfishness wastes my time.