Transgender in the AFLW to be drafted?

[satchmo]

I have just realized I am an archaic bigot.

...and a moral guardian. Those two things go hand in hand. And tongue on tongue

[Drake Huggins]

Everyone, he's a dude!

[suss]

Suss, no amount of moralizing and fart cupping, will change the fact he's a man playing against women. Not fair. Well, perhaps not in your world.

Hey, I’m just saying “hi”. Relax.

It’s not an easy one this one.

[Numpty]

I've already banned this person from my army. I think I can't do much better, right? #makingmoralguardianscupfartsagain

[Enrico_Misso]

So where is our all moralising all sermonising AFL now?

Two weeks ago they were busy hoisting a big YES sign up at AFL HQ and telling us how to vote on gay marriage and boasting how much they supported the LGBTQI (add more random letters here).

Then when they get the chance to demonstrate this precious much espoused inclusiveness they tell this LGBTIQ person to piss off as the women's league is not a freak show!

[Drake Huggins]

Suss, no amount of moralizing and fart cupping, will change the fact he's a man playing against women. Not fair. Well, perhaps not in your world.

Hey, I’m just saying “hi”. Relax.

It’s not an easy one this one.

Exactly, suss. This is extremely complex. I think the AFL is buying itself some think time on this. There was a case recently in the USA where a sixteen-year-old high school student who identified as a woman, won a state 100 metres championship. Physically he was still a man, but he couldn't make the finals in the boys' section, so he swapped over. Predictably, the girls running against him were not happy, and legal action is pending. This has the potential to be a legal nightmare. We discriminate in sport all the time. This is routinely done on the basis of gender, or else there would be no men or women's sport. Just sport. That would have terrible ramifications for women trying to compete at the elite level. Apart from horse racing, I can't think of another high profile, elite level sport where men and women compete on a level playing field and against each other.

We live in a society where the rights of the individual are highly valued and therefore we often relegate the needs and rights of the collective. The system of gender discrimination is the very reason AFLW exists in the first place. It has provided an opportunity for girl's and women of all ages to play the greatest game in the world, with a pathway to professionalism clearly established. Men posing as women, crashing in where they don't belong threatens the whole nature of the competition. Cases like that of Caster Semenya highlight the greyness of the whole area. Semenya, now the Olympic 800 metre women's champion, was suspended for two years while officials determined her sex. She has external female genitalia, but undescended testes where her ovaries would normally be. She produces high levels of testosterone but has been cleared to compete again. Several of her rivals have complained that they feel as though they are running against a man. Semenya is trapped by her physiology. She has no choice. Mouncey does. If he completes his transition, including surgery, he will probably get cleared to play. Even then, the physical advantages he enjoys being a biological male, will always be present to a certain extent. Given experiences in the courts overseas, he'll win in the end. I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers lining up to represent him.

[Drake Huggins]

Why is there now a Q instead of I in this LGTB acronym?

It's for queer. The full acronym is LGBTIQA+. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex (Indeterminate), Queer, Asexual/Androgynous. The plus sign caters for other categories too numerous to mention. There are variations, depending on who you're talking to.

[Enrico_Misso]

Why is there now a Q instead of I in this LGTB acronym?

It's for queer. The full acronym is LGBTIQA+. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex (Indeterminate), Queer, Asexual/Androgynous. The plus sign caters for other categories too numerous to mention. There are variations, depending on who you're talking to.

Can you help me out with this as I have obviously led a very sheltered life.

Firstly how is Queer different to Gay?
And what on earth is this + = "categories too numerous to mention"?

[parkeysainter]

Why is there now a Q instead of I in this LGTB acronym?

It's for queer. The full acronym is LGBTIQA+. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex (Indeterminate), Queer, Asexual/Androgynous. The plus sign caters for other categories too numerous to mention. There are variations, depending on who you're talking to.

This is just getting ridiculous. Nothing against any of the people that identify with this acronym either.

Now every workplace in Australia will now to have to update their training packages for this new acronym and what is associated with it. xc

I might start my own club up. It will be called the White Caucasian Australian Male Heterosexual Group = WCAMHG. It sounds pretty good. Who is in? Bet that would go down well in this PC mad world!

[Sainternist]

Why is there now a Q instead of I in this LGTB acronym?

It's for queer. The full acronym is LGBTIQA+. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex (Indeterminate), Queer, Asexual/Androgynous. The plus sign caters for other categories too numerous to mention. There are variations, depending on who you're talking to.

This is just getting ridiculous. Nothing against any of the people that identify with this acronym either.

Now every workplace in Australia will now to have to update their training packages for this new acronym and what is associated with it. xc

I might start my own club up. It will be called the White Caucasian Australian Male Heterosexual Group = WCAMHG. It sounds pretty good. Who is in? Bet that would go down well in this PC mad world!

It shouldn't have to come down to all this. I don't buy into this PC stuff, either. For me, PC is mainly Clinton-era white guilt and token diplomacy. I just think it's sad when people are discriminated against for their ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender etc. At the end of the day we're all human. Life is hard enough without any of that crap. It'd be great if we had a world where we could look past all of that and learn to get along. With the current state of the world, it would appear it needs a little more love. I realise it's more complicated than this, but I think people could make a difference in just making a little effort in learning to accept those who are different. I know a couple of transgender people and they really don't go through with it for any sort of advantage. From what I gather, they experience an internal trauma with having to come to terms with not feeling comfortable about the gender they were born with. Then the whole transformation of gender just sounds like nothing but hell for them. There's no way in my mind Hannah Mouncey tried to qualify for the AFLW draft to get an edge over women. That just seems completely absurd. For what I gather, Hannah Mouncey is just a person who loves footy and wanted to try their hand at playing at the highest level.

[ace]

Why is there now a Q instead of I in this LGTB acronym?

I know why there is a Q instead of an H.

They feared that Heterosexuals may demand equal rights.

[Drake Huggins]

Why is there now a Q instead of I in this LGTB acronym?

It's for queer. The full acronym is LGBTIQA+. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex (Indeterminate), Queer, Asexual/Androgynous. The plus sign caters for other categories too numerous to mention. There are variations, depending on who you're talking to.

This is just getting ridiculous. Nothing against any of the people that identify with this acronym either.

Now every workplace in Australia will now to have to update their training packages for this new acronym and what is associated with it. xc

I might start my own club up. It will be called the White Caucasian Australian Male Heterosexual Group = WCAMHG. It sounds pretty good. Who is in? Bet that would go down well in this PC mad world!

It shouldn't have to come down to all this. I don't buy into this PC stuff, either. For me, PC is mainly Clinton-era white guilt and token diplomacy. I just think it's sad when people are discriminated against for their ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender etc. At the end of the day we're all human. Life is hard enough without any of that crap. It'd be great if we had a world where we could look past all of that and learn to get along. With the current state of the world, it would appear it needs a little more love. I realise it's more complicated than this, but I think people could make a difference in just making a little effort in learning to accept those who are different. I know a couple of transgender people and they really don't go through with it for any sort of advantage. From what I gather, they experience an internal trauma with having to come to terms with not feeling comfortable about the gender they were born with. Then the whole transformation of gender just sounds like nothing but hell for them. There's no way in my mind Hannah Mouncey tried to qualify for the AFLW draft to get an edge over women. That just seems completely absurd. For what I gather, Hannah Mouncey is just a person who loves footy and wanted to try their hand at playing at the highest level.

Good post, sainternist. I had a good friend in the military who transitioned fully in 2006. He was a captain in the army, married, with a young daughter and was fiercely intelligent and capable. His decision to trans came as a complete shock. He seemed to have things together and from the outside appeared to have it all. But he harboured a deep secret since his late teens. To complicate things, he suffered from a mild form of Kleinfelder's Syndrome, in his case meaning he had an extra set of sex chromosomes. He was XXYY, as opposed to XY for a male and XX for a woman. This didn't cause him too many problems and he was a very good athlete, measuring 203 cm tall and weighing in at 110 kilos. His transition was traumatic, particularly the reassignment surgery, which saw him come close to suiciding. While the Army was generally supportive, it was relatively early days in relation to this issue and he eventually resigned. His parents disowned him and put a death notice for him in the Adelaide Advertiser the day of his surgery.

As a woman, she set up a successful HR consulting business that went well for a short time. The people who bullied her most were other transgender people, who were in her so-called support network. She showed me a couple of letters that had been sent to her by the group. They were as disturbing as they were abusive and distressing. As if she didn't have enough problems, the treatment she received at their hands was the last straw. She retreated to Sydney and eventually committed suicide. I'd stayed in touch and I thought she was doing ok. She'd closed the business, but was working and seemed settled. As is often the case, a sense of calm had descended on her after she'd made the decision to end her life.

As far as Hannah Mouncey is concerned, the courts will eventually decide and she'll probably play sometime in the near future. Clearly, the safety of other players is not the issue. She's been playing in Canberra without apparent concern. Given Mouncey is 20 kg heavier than the next heaviest player in AFLW, would we ban Liz Cambage, the basketballer who is much taller and heavier than Mouncey from playing? Cambage, having seen AFLW take off, has openly expressed her interest in possibly making the swap. Erin Philips winning the competition B & F shows basketballers can make the transition well. Cambage would dominate the comp. purely on her size. What if she had nominated for this year's draft? Would they have stopped her? I don't believe so.

I believe this is a case of the AFL not knowing exactly what to do. There are so many variables and legal issues involved. Mouncey's case was probably not helped by the fact he hasn't transitioned completely, even though in her mind she identifies as a woman. It will be fascinating to see how this plays out. The definition of what exactly gender is, guidelines for testing and inclusion/exclusion based on that testing, and the concerns women have in competing against what they see as males who have altered themselves. Pass the popcorn.

[Sainternist]

Why is there now a Q instead of I in this LGTB acronym?

It's for queer. The full acronym is LGBTIQA+. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex (Indeterminate), Queer, Asexual/Androgynous. The plus sign caters for other categories too numerous to mention. There are variations, depending on who you're talking to.

This is just getting ridiculous. Nothing against any of the people that identify with this acronym either.

Now every workplace in Australia will now to have to update their training packages for this new acronym and what is associated with it. xc

I might start my own club up. It will be called the White Caucasian Australian Male Heterosexual Group = WCAMHG. It sounds pretty good. Who is in? Bet that would go down well in this PC mad world!

It shouldn't have to come down to all this. I don't buy into this PC stuff, either. For me, PC is mainly Clinton-era white guilt and token diplomacy. I just think it's sad when people are discriminated against for their ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender etc. At the end of the day we're all human. Life is hard enough without any of that crap. It'd be great if we had a world where we could look past all of that and learn to get along. With the current state of the world, it would appear it needs a little more love. I realise it's more complicated than this, but I think people could make a difference in just making a little effort in learning to accept those who are different. I know a couple of transgender people and they really don't go through with it for any sort of advantage. From what I gather, they experience an internal trauma with having to come to terms with not feeling comfortable about the gender they were born with. Then the whole transformation of gender just sounds like nothing but hell for them. There's no way in my mind Hannah Mouncey tried to qualify for the AFLW draft to get an edge over women. That just seems completely absurd. For what I gather, Hannah Mouncey is just a person who loves footy and wanted to try their hand at playing at the highest level.

Good post, sainternist. I had a good friend in the military who transitioned fully in 2006. He was a captain in the army, married, with a young daughter and was fiercely intelligent and capable. His decision to trans came as a complete shock. He seemed to have things together and from the outside appeared to have it all. But he harboured a deep secret since his late teens. To complicate things, he suffered from a mild form of Kleinfelder's Syndrome, in his case meaning he had an extra set of sex chromosomes. He was XXYY, as opposed to XY for a male and XX for a woman. This didn't cause him too many problems and he was a very good athlete, measuring 203 cm tall and weighing in at 110 kilos. His transition was traumatic, particularly the reassignment surgery, which saw him come close to suiciding. While the Army was generally supportive, it was relatively early days in relation to this issue and he eventually resigned. His parents disowned him and put a death notice for him in the Adelaide Advertiser the day of his surgery.

As a woman, she set up a successful HR consulting business that went well for a short time. The people who bullied her most were other transgender people, who were in her so-called support network. She showed me a couple of letters that had been sent to her by the group. They were as disturbing as they were abusive and distressing. As if she didn't have enough problems, the treatment she received at their hands was the last straw. She retreated to Sydney and eventually committed suicide. I'd stayed in touch and I thought she was doing ok. She'd closed the business, but was working and seemed settled. As is often the case, a sense of calm had descended on her after she'd made the decision to end her life.

As far as Hannah Mouncey is concerned, the courts will eventually decide and she'll probably play sometime in the near future. Clearly, the safety of other players is not the issue. She's been playing in Canberra without apparent concern. Given Mouncey is 20 kg heavier than the next heaviest player in AFLW, would we ban Liz Cambage, the basketballer who is much taller and heavier than Mouncey from playing? Cambage, having seen AFLW take off, has openly expressed her interest in possibly making the swap. Erin Philips winning the competition B & F shows basketballers can make the transition well. Cambage would dominate the comp. purely on her size. What if she had nominated for this year's draft? Would they have stopped her? I don't believe so.

I believe this is a case of the AFL not knowing exactly what to do. There are so many variables and legal issues involved. Mouncey's case was probably not helped by the fact he hasn't transitioned completely, even though in her mind she identifies as a woman. It will be fascinating to see how this plays out. The definition of what exactly gender is, guidelines for testing and inclusion/exclusion based on that testing, and the concerns women have in competing against what they see as males who have altered themselves. Pass the popcorn.

Thanks for sharing, DH. So sorry to hear about your good friend and colleague. That is so tragic. Bullied by people in the so-called safe haven of a support group. Sounds like a nasty mob mentality going on in that place. Ironic that the Army ultimately showed more compassion.

The Mouncey case is indeed a complex issue. Perhaps just hot to handle for the AFL right now. A credit to Mouncey in graciously accepting the AFL's decision and even thanking them for considering her be included in the draft. We may see the AFLW's first transgender woman by next year. How rapidly times are changing!

[desertsaint]

wish they'd just change the lbtqi...to a simple x or + when referring to the whole. i've read so many variations. you can,t just put a few in and settle for a + at the end of it and say that's for others. either they are all + or come up with another symbol to recognise them all.

[Sainternist]

wish they'd just change the lbtqi...to a simple x or + when referring to the whole. i've read so many variations. you can,t just put a few in and settle for a + at the end of it and say that's for others. either they are all + or come up with another symbol to recognise them all.

Eh, it's just another acronym. There are so many different acronyms being made these days it seems impossible to keep up with it all. My favourite one has always been NWA!

[Sainter_Dad]

Why doesn't the AFL set up a separate transgender league.

In all seriousness - this is the only viable solution.

If it were to be over turned and she plays against XX women the possibility of a law suit when she hurts another girl is what will be stopping the AFL sanctioning her playing - after all - in their eyes it would be such a great publicity story.

[Sainter_Dad]

Suss, no amount of moralizing and fart cupping, will change the fact he's a man playing against women. Not fair. Well, perhaps not in your world.

Hey, I’m just saying “hi”. Relax.

It’s not an easy one this one.

Exactly, suss. This is extremely complex. I think the AFL is buying itself some think time on this. There was a case recently in the USA where a sixteen-year-old high school student who identified as a woman, won a state 100 metres championship. Physically he was still a man, but he couldn't make the finals in the boys' section, so he swapped over. Predictably, the girls running against him were not happy, and legal action is pending. This has the potential to be a legal nightmare. We discriminate in sport all the time. This is routinely done on the basis of gender, or else there would be no men or women's sport. Just sport. That would have terrible ramifications for women trying to compete at the elite level. Apart from horse racing, I can't think of another high profile, elite level sport where men and women compete on a level playing field and against each other.

We live in a society where the rights of the individual are highly valued and therefore we often relegate the needs and rights of the collective. The system of gender discrimination is the very reason AFLW exists in the first place. It has provided an opportunity for girl's and women of all ages to play the greatest game in the world, with a pathway to professionalism clearly established. Men posing as women, crashing in where they don't belong threatens the whole nature of the competition. Cases like that of Caster Semenya highlight the greyness of the whole area. Semenya, now the Olympic 800 metre women's champion, was suspended for two years while officials determined her sex. She has external female genitalia, but undescended testes where her ovaries would normally be. She produces high levels of testosterone but has been cleared to compete again. Several of her rivals have complained that they feel as though they are running against a man. Semenya is trapped by her physiology. She has no choice. Mouncey does. If he completes his transition, including surgery, he will probably get cleared to play. Even then, the physical advantages he enjoys being a biological male, will always be present to a certain extent. Given experiences in the courts overseas, he'll win in the end. I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers lining up to represent him.

And this is why only women are gender tested in the Olympics - the Olympics recognize that if a woman wants to complete in a male event she can, but will have to overcome extreme physical disadvantages - not so the other way around.

[Drake Huggins]

Why is there now a Q instead of I in this LGTB acronym?

It's for queer. The full acronym is LGBTIQA+. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex (Indeterminate), Queer, Asexual/Androgynous. The plus sign caters for other categories too numerous to mention. There are variations, depending on who you're talking to.

The term queer has many different facets. It is a term that can be used interchangeably with gay. It has also been "reclaimed" by some as a response to its pejorative nature until the recent past. Some use it to encompass all non-heterosexual, non-cisgender identities.

[Saintly66]

Why doesn't the AFL set up a separate transgender league.

In all seriousness - this is the only viable solution.

If it were to be over turned and she plays against XX women the possibility of a law suit when she hurts another girl is what will be stopping the AFL sanctioning her playing - after all - in their eyes it would be such a great publicity story.

Agree with what you’ve said and the suggestion from Ace, just don’t see the point myself of setting something up for such a small percentage of Australian society and not all would want to play which brings the percentage down further.
The women’s league though I definitely think is fantastic and should be left at that.

[supersaints]

Geez ... I remember when Gay meant Happy, Camp was something you did in the bush at Easter. The world is going crazy
What next the Paraphilia league???

[supersaints]

Geez ... I remember when Gay meant Happy, Camp was something you did in the bush at Easter. The world is going crazy
What next the Paraphilia league???

[supersaints]

Geez ... I remember when Gay meant Happy, Camp was something you did in the bush at Easter. The world is going crazy
What next the Paraphilia league???

[Drake Huggins]

Geez ... I remember when Gay meant Happy, Camp was something you did in the bush at Easter. The world is going crazy
What next the Paraphilia league???

That's so crazy it might just work! We could set up a league for sadomasochistic necrophiles who are into bestiality. Then again, that could be seen as flogging a dead horse. And yes, ss, remember the days you could watch The Flinstones having a gay old time, while sucking on a fag and feeling a little queer (ill), without batting an eyelid?

[Enrico_Misso]

Isn't it a bit sexist that Lesso's get their own "L" gig,
Whilst gay blokes are just lumped in as Gay?

Plus in the old days male and female homos we're proud to be called Queer.
So why all the doubling up?

Plus what actually is plus???

[Drake Huggins]

Isn't it a bit sexist that Lesso's get their own "L" gig,
Whilst gay blokes are just lumped in as Gay?

Plus in the old days male and female homos we're proud to be called Queer.
So why all the doubling up?

Plus what actually is plus???

Covers every other variation, apparently. Some recognise up to 57 genders and sexual orientation variations. The one that should disturb everyone is the lobby to include "age different attracted" in the acronym. To the general population, that means pedophile. I s*** you not. Gary Dowsett, co-author of the SSP and colleague of Roz Ward, is leading the charge. He is openly fighting for the rights of pedophiles and did a thesis back in the 80's on man/boy sexual relationships.