1 way we went backwards in '17 - Toughness

[carn_sainter]

I'm not saying it's all doom and gloom, we are irredeemably hopeless and the list is rubbish. But I think it's worth pointing out a massive failure for the season.

Last year we were much harder to play against. Pressure on the man with the ball, pressure on the ground ball, better hunting in numbers, more intensity.

This year, we are, to use an ugly word, softer. Add to this that we have not learned to set up better around the ball, and we are now far less tough.

Our inability to put scoreboard pressure is another form of softness, itself caused by softness.

Our woeful obsession with tiny, useless 1-2 handballs is another form of softness, itself caused by softness.

This year, we do not run as hard as we did last year - forward or back.

This year, we do not attack the corridor. We are too soft to go for the throat, straight down the guts. How often do we just kick long down the line? This became more and more prevalent as the year went on - we were never tough enough to take a risk and go down the middle hard, neither kicker nor presenter. Our kick-ins are easy to defend because we just pop it up like we're playing kick to kick.

We fell for the idea of the zone and the high-press, but too often got caught between attacking the ball carrier and defending the next kick, effectively doing nothing at all. The high-press and lack of forward line has stopped so much of our run this year and only works if you have the leg speed and desire to work back harder than we do. We're too soft.

Worse, we got easier and easier to play against as the year went on. Even today, we afforded Richmond so many sighs of relief. When we had them down, not only did we not put our foot on their throat, we lent them a hand to get back on their feet.


So, on the issue of toughness, I'd be interested to read people's thoughts (not including Roo & Joey).

Top 3 Toughness - Physical
- Geary
- Carlisle
- Gilbert

I define physical toughness as intensity, who goes the hardest at the contest. These aren't the only three - for example, Webster is pretty damn tough, as are Bruce, Newnes, Membrey and Steele.


Top 3 Toughness - Mental
- Roberton
- Sinclair
- Geary

This I define as constancy, not folding or adjusting how you play based on the circumstances. Having balls to trust yourself and pick yourself up and go again.


To me, the most disappointing part of the season was how easy we can be to play against. We too often have been easy to defend, easy to score against and completely unable to make the opposition pay. Lift this and we'll be bloody dangerous in 2018.

[fugazi]

Yep...if there was a stat for tackles broken, we'd win it.

[philtee]

+ 1.
Also the inner toughness to gut run 25m to tackle an opponent, even though you're kn@ckered.

[Wayne42]

Is blocking a sign of toughness ?

[GregPackhamsHeadband]

Lever and Kitchen just rang. They are offering us Softly Fabric Softener as our jumper sponsor for next year, thereby guaranteeing we are the softest in the competition, and that we will feel the softest when we are tackled. Pleasing.

[Jacks Back]

I don't agree that Carlisle is tough at all. In fact I think he is rather weak. He can sure take a mark but that's about it.

[elizabethr]

The overrating of Carlisle is palpable. ..

[Sainternist]

Yeah Carlisle is overrated... Numpty!

[Roland]

I agree with Jacks Back I don't think Carlisle is tough either.
I mean I don't see him physically bumping or tackling or putting great pressure on the opposition.
He's to slow and basically just plays that loose defender who marks under pressure miss kicks.
The only time he looked good at the Dopers was when he was up forward.
But Richo's to smart to make that move.

[ace]

Lever and Kitchen just rang. They are offering us Softly Fabric Softener as our jumper sponsor for next year, thereby guaranteeing we are the softest in the competition, and that we will feel the softest when we are tackled. Pleasing.

Is Lever available to play for us ?

[Sainternist]

I agree with Jacks Back I don't think Carlisle is tough either.
I mean I don't see him physically bumping or tackling or putting great pressure on the opposition.
He's to slow and basically just plays that loose defender who marks under pressure miss kicks.
The only time he looked good at the Dopers was when he was up forward.
But Richo's to smart to make that move.

Jesus, you two must have had your heads up your rear ends all year. He had a ripper season.

[carn_sainter]

Carlisle is as tough as nails.

He contests everything in the air. Don't underestimate that. He comes often from way far back, often peeling off his man, always puts himself in the path of the ball, never runs under it or doesn't get there, he has the guts to spot up targets rather than bomb down the line and is physically a very strong man, he sticks his tackles (relatively few that they are. If you mark everything, there are fewer opportunities to tackle).

Ask his opponents or just look up his one-on-one stats to see if he's tough or not.

He puts his body on the line a lot. And he's willing to push and shove a little bit, which doesn't mean much - true - but at least lets the opposition know he's intent on making it hard for them. Compare this to some of our younger players who barely touch their opponents.

[Scollop]

One of the main reasons we are sofffteeerrr

Shinner out - Brown in

I don't give a stuff if he gets in the top 5 in the best and fairest ( we all know that coaches and match committee will reward him and justify their own decisions in recruiting and selecting him each week) but we have gone backwards with Nathan Brown in the team.

Could you ever accuse Shinner of being a spectator? I don't know how many times this year I've seen Nathan lose his opponent. If that is not spectating, what is it? If Shinner had the size and weight of Brown there'd be 2-3 in the opposition with corkies or bruised ribs each week. Brown just fails to use his weight and fails to impact enough contests for a guy his size who is supposed to be our Full Back.

Brown does not have an ability to judge the flight of the ball. Fair enough as a backman your job is to defend and not to mark the footy, but if you are clueless, then you not only fail to get any fist on the footy, but you can't work out where to best position yourself to protect the footy. He's been carried in a way by Geary, Webster, Robbo and Carlisle, who have crashed packs countless times more than he has.

Nathan looks like a big burly tough guy, but he is soft. Dempster occassionally took a speccy which means he had courage. Also ( most importantly as far as this thread is concerned) Sean had the 'aggression' which Nathan lacks. Nathan seems like he just does not want the ball. In some ways he reminds me of Zac Dawson in that he is a negator rather than an accummulator of possessions, but that's where the comparison ends because Zac was better defensively and he had an ounce of meanness.

Nathan is too nice( he's your backmans version of Rhys Stanley). If he changes his mindset and gets a bit nasty he might be useful in 2018, but I can't see his overall game changing. I can't see a guy who is going to be creative enough as a backman for us. It proves to me personally that you need younsters. I say that because I think Nathan has achieved as much as he probably already planned to in his AFL life. Right now, where is his hunger? Where is his passion?

[SaintPav]

A good op wrecked by a few numpty dumpties who wouldn't have a clue about toughness or how to define it.

There is a really good reason for that.

This place is quickly turning into deadsh*t central.

[MickThomas]

A good op wrecked by a few numpty dumpties who wouldn't have a clue about toughness or how to define it.

There is a really good reason for that.

This place is quickly turning into deadsh*t central.

But you're the king of the numpties; they're simply following your example

[Impatient Sainter]

I'm not saying it's all doom and gloom, we are irredeemably hopeless and the list is rubbish. But I think it's worth pointing out a massive failure for the season.

Last year we were much harder to play against. Pressure on the man with the ball, pressure on the ground ball, better hunting in numbers, more intensity.

This year, we are, to use an ugly word, softer. Add to this that we have not learned to set up better around the ball, and we are now far less tough.

Our inability to put scoreboard pressure is another form of softness, itself caused by softness.

Our woeful obsession with tiny, useless 1-2 handballs is another form of softness, itself caused by softness.

This year, we do not run as hard as we did last year - forward or back.

This year, we do not attack the corridor. We are too soft to go for the throat, straight down the guts. How often do we just kick long down the line? This became more and more prevalent as the year went on - we were never tough enough to take a risk and go down the middle hard, neither kicker nor presenter. Our kick-ins are easy to defend because we just pop it up like we're playing kick to kick.

We fell for the idea of the zone and the high-press, but too often got caught between attacking the ball carrier and defending the next kick, effectively doing nothing at all. The high-press and lack of forward line has stopped so much of our run this year and only works if you have the leg speed and desire to work back harder than we do. We're too soft.

Worse, we got easier and easier to play against as the year went on. Even today, we afforded Richmond so many sighs of relief. When we had them down, not only did we not put our foot on their throat, we lent them a hand to get back on their feet.


So, on the issue of toughness, I'd be interested to read people's thoughts (not including Roo & Joey).

Top 3 Toughness - Physical
- Geary
- Carlisle
- Gilbert

I define physical toughness as intensity, who goes the hardest at the contest. These aren't the only three - for example, Webster is pretty damn tough, as are Bruce, Newnes, Membrey and Steele.


Top 3 Toughness - Mental
- Roberton
- Sinclair
- Geary

This I define as constancy, not folding or adjusting how you play based on the circumstances. Having balls to trust yourself and pick yourself up and go again.


To me, the most disappointing part of the season was how easy we can be to play against. We too often have been easy to defend, easy to score against and completely unable to make the opposition pay. Lift this and we'll be bloody dangerous in 2018.

Excellent summary Carn Sainter...

[SaintPav]

A good op wrecked by a few numpty dumpties who wouldn't have a clue about toughness or how to define it.

There is a really good reason for that.

This place is quickly turning into deadsh*t central.

But you're the king of the numpties; they're simply following your example

If the shoe fits, Wellard...

As Dragit said, you have been slagging off on the club and most of the players all year.

take it to the AE if you want to continue this..

[GregPackhamsHeadband]

I think the problem is part of our overall performance. When we are "on" we seem to be as good and tough as anyone else. When we are "off" we're bloody terrible. The difference between our best and worst is simply too great. Sometimes this happens within a game as well. Our last third of the season was diabolical. 2-5 over the last seven weeks when there was all to play for and even top four was a possibility. Maybe we ran out of gas. Maybe injuries took their toll. Maybe we rely on Roo more than we like to admit. Whatever it is, we're going nowhere until the consistency issue is fixed, be that in terms of skills, kicking for goal, or toughness. Over to you, AR.

[spert]

We are a one-dimensional team with a one- dimensional coach. That is why we are either good or bad with nothing in-between. This will only be resolved by replacing the coach. The club needs to make a big call, otherwise it be much of the same regardless of who gets recruited during for Richo's tenure.