Longer!!!!!

[stonecold]

I think the Longer love is being exaggerated by only one poster on here.

One Poster?????

Playing group, coaching staff, opposition coaches, former AFL Champions v' a handful of spuds on this forum, now that IS FUNNY, keep the dream alive KC'S!!!!!

I wonder who that poster could be ???

As mentioned above, could be any of the true experts as qouted, but none of the KC's as mentioned, which group are you in Fiery?????

I know which one I trust!!!!!

Anyway, Billy doesn't need my help, just check the coaches votes if your not sure!!!!!

Don't pick a fight with Stonecold Fiery, you should know better!!!!!

[samoht]

Here's average metres gained for the current season by some of the opposition ruckmen .....
(Longer gains 14.2 metres ave/ game as a comparison!)

Jacobs 183.3, Kruezer 197.8, Ryder 198.3, Nankervis 160 metres, Grundy 172.6, Stefan Martin 167 metres, Griffin 147 metres, Tom Hickey 136 metres (last year).

A 14.2 metres gain is not much of a gain - I'm sure Lewis Pierce would do a lot better than that - and I hope our selectors give him a chance to prove it.

Ryder, Kruezer, Jacobs, Grundy, Martin, Nankervis not only bring other team mates into play, they also gain 150 metres plus more than Longer does for their team, and thereby create another 3-4 shots at goal on average for their team (than Longer does for ours).

If every one of the players on our team was worth 1 less shot at goal - that would mean our team would have 20 less kicks at goal than our opponents - yet here is a player who's worth 3 to 4 less shots at goal to our team - and we persist with them to the exclusion of giving a go to others (such as Pierce).

[sunsaint]

I think the Longer love is being exaggerated by only one poster on here.

One Poster?????

Playing group, coaching staff, opposition coaches, former AFL Champions v' a handful of spuds on this forum, now that IS FUNNY, keep the dream alive KC'S!!!!!

I wonder who that poster could be ???

I think stonecold might actually be Longers agent

[sunsaint]

Don't pick a fight with Stonecold Fiery, you should know better!!!!!

You do know what happens to stones under intense heat dont you ?
they crack and explode!

[The Fireman]

Don't pick a fight with Stonecold Fiery, you should know better!!!!!

I didn't mention names Stone ... and if it seemed the Firey alluded to anything please forgive the Firey.... The Firey is no idiot and definitely don't want to end up with Bluthy .. where ever he is...can you see the fear in my texting ?

[To the top]

In the AFL article discussing the AA credentials of ruckman where is Longer's name even mentioned?

If we aspire to adding to our 1966 premiership (our only one) we need players pressing for AA inclusion, polling Brownlow votes and therefore influencing results - and that includes where the game commences in the ruck

We trust Hickey is fully fit and contributes at 2016 levels in 2018 because that is the start we need to improve (noting all other Clubs will improve so we have to firstly catch the premiership side and their improvement for 2018)

Those who try, no matter their commitment, do not cut it in premiership sides

If we accept that Longer's performances are the benchmark we have absolutely no hope of featuring in September football

The days of a knock ruckman disappeared in the 1960's - and they ain't coming back

[stonecold]

Don't pick a fight with Stonecold Fiery, you should know better!!!!!

I didn't mention names Stone ... and if it seemed the Firey alluded to anything please forgive the Firey.... The Firey is no idiot and definitely don't want to end up with Bluthy .. where ever he is...can you see the fear in my texting ?

I did put a wink on it!!!!!

[stonecold]

TOT, if you knew anything about modern day ruckwork, you would know the no third man up rule has killed Hickey off!!!!!

Not going to argue with you about it, your entitled to your opinion, so go for it!!!!!

So at 24, you carnt see any improvement in Billy????? That's the question I ask you?????

[Jacks Back]

I think the Longer love is being exaggerated by only one poster on here.

billy don't be a hero (re-mix)
(murray, callender, austin and gordo')

billy don't be a statistical zero
be cool with your footballing life
take a steadying mark when your team is in strife.

and as billy started to go
all the on-ballers said
"keep your pretty centre of gravity low.
don't fall over ffs!!! help get the footy to come back to me."

the battle was ragin' all around
the team runner cried "you're marking, you've gotta hang on ffs billy!!!
we gotta hold out, have a win this round.”

i heard a supporter got a letter
that told how billy played today
33000 taps, the letter said that he was a hero
you should be proud he played that way
but 2 kicks, 1 handball, 1 mark?
and goals? ffs!!! again a big fat zero.

i heard stoney threw that letter away.

I heard he threw the letter away. Classic!

[Jacks Back]

In the AFL article discussing the AA credentials of ruckman where is Longer's name even mentioned?

If we aspire to adding to our 1966 premiership (our only one) we need players pressing for AA inclusion, polling Brownlow votes and therefore influencing results - and that includes where the game commences in the ruck

We trust Hickey is fully fit and contributes at 2016 levels in 2018 because that is the start we need to improve (noting all other Clubs will improve so we have to firstly catch the premiership side and their improvement for 2018)

Those who try, no matter their commitment, do not cut it in premiership sides

If we accept that Longer's performances are the benchmark we have absolutely no hope of featuring in September football

The days of a knock ruckman disappeared in the 1960's - and they ain't coming back

+1

[The_Dud]

So Stonecold, can you name another clubs number 1 ruckman who Billy is a better player than?

[skeptic]

Surely nobody is seriously arguing that the current version of Longer is exactly what we want!!!??

I like Longer and he's played a few good games this season but his very best games are the bare minimum standard that is required every game if we're going to be a legitimate threat.

Longer is ALWAYS competitive in the centre. In about 1/4 of the games he's played this season he's had a moderate impact around the ground. Surely we must think he can get much better right?

[Jacks Back]

Surely nobody is seriously arguing that the current version of Longer is exactly what we want!!!??

I like Longer and he's played a few good games this season but his very best games are the bare minimum standard that is required every game if we're going to be a legitimate threat.

Longer is ALWAYS competitive in the centre. In about 1/4 of the games he's played this season he's had a moderate impact around the ground. Surely we must think he can get much better right?

+1

Surely winning hit outs is not all stonecold is on about. The truly great ruckmen also do stuff around the ground. How did Dempsey, Madden, Moore, Ditterich, Scott do around the ground? No possessions? No marks? Billy tries hard but is not the long term answer.

[stonecold]

So Stonecold, can you name another clubs number 1 ruckman who Billy is a better player than?

For starters, compare Billy to other Ruckman in the league he's age, he is a developing ruck, not a seasoned Ruckman such the other number 1's at other clubs!!!!!

Is he our best Ruckman????? Yes, by along way!!!!!

Does he have to work on things????? Yes, he's got lots to work on!!!!!

Has he constantly improved throughout the season????? Yes!!!!!

Is he highly rated by those in the know(at the Club and outside) Yes!!!!!

Keyboard Cowboys v Players/Coaches etc, well, no need to respond really, I rest my case!!!!!

You guys can jump up and down and have all the opinions you want, but those that REALLY MATTER, have confidence in Billy, so I know which opinion I'll go with!!!!!!

[stonecold]

Don't pick a fight with Stonecold Fiery, you should know better!!!!!

You do know what happens to stones under intense heat dont you ?
they crack and explode!

Who's bringing the intense heat????? You?????

Don't make me laugh, Banana Benda!!!!!

We all know what happens to Bananas under intense heat!!!!!

[To the top]

If he is a "developing" ruckman who is "just" 24 years of age develop him in the VFL

That is what the VFL side is there for

Not to be exposed as he is in regards his football performance at AFL level

His contributions in respect to disposals and marks are what they are - woefully inadequate and they have not improved across the 23 rounds so far played in 2017

And they are consistent across his 60 plus AFL games to date

At least he is consistent!!!

[stonecold]

If he is a "developing" ruckman who is "just" 24 years of age develop him in the VFL

That is what the VFL side is there for

Not to be exposed as he is in regards his football performance at AFL level

His contributions in respect to disposals and marks are what they are - woefully inadequate and they have not improved across the 23 rounds so far played in 2017

And they are consistent across his 60 plus AFL games to date

At least he is consistent!!!

So, who are you playing ahead of him then?????

Didn't he have 12 or 15 disposals last game or the game before?????

[shrodes]

Here's average metres gained for the current season by some of the opposition ruckmen .....
(Longer gains 14.2 metres ave/ game as a comparison!)

Jacobs 183.3, Kruezer 197.8, Ryder 198.3, Nankervis 160 metres, Grundy 172.6, Stefan Martin 167 metres, Griffin 147 metres, Tom Hickey 136 metres (last year).

A 14.2 metres gain is not much of a gain - I'm sure Lewis Pierce would do a lot better than that - and I hope our selectors give him a chance to prove it.

Ryder, Kruezer, Jacobs, Grundy, Martin, Nankervis not only bring other team mates into play, they also gain 150 metres plus more than Longer does for their team, and thereby create another 3-4 shots at goal on average for their team (than Longer does for ours).

If every one of the players on our team was worth 1 less shot at goal - that would mean our team would have 20 less kicks at goal than our opponents - yet here is a player who's worth 3 to 4 less shots at goal to our team - and we persist with them to the exclusion of giving a go to others (such as Pierce).

An interesting point. I would say that Longer's metres gained is so low because he isn't confident enough to kick (or has been told not to).
He is almost guaranteed to handball to a teammate 5m behind him after a free kick or taking a mark.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing - ruckmen are far less likely to be able to hit a target easily so would normally resort to a long kick down the line to a contest, which as we've discussed before will generally be considered an effective disposal whilst not really providing a big benefit to ball movement. I don't agree that an extra 100-150m gained translates to 3-4 shots on goal in this case.

I would say that Hickey is much better at field kicking, or at least more confident to try it rather than handball, so his metres gained figure is higher for that reason.

With that said, if Billy can back himself (and potentially hone that skill) to hit a teammate with a kick then I agree he will be a much better and more useful player than he currently is.

[1966]

What a ridiculous argument.
We could just not play a ruckman and go with an extra midfielder to get us "metres gained"
Of course we would lose every clearance but hey that doesn't matter.
There would be plenty of opportunity to get metres gained when every centre bounce goes to the opposition goal square before we get the ball back.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion but having a go at Longer for lack of metres gained is moronic.

[samoht]

With that said, if Billy can back himself (and potentially hone that skill) to hit a teammate with a kick then I agree he will be a much better and more useful player than he currently is.

The point is the other ruckmen also dish out handballs (the five or so effective handballs that Longer averages) but on top of this they also have an extra 5 - 10 kicks - and they back themselves by holding on to the ball. They are not panicky or rushed - they are footballers, first and foremost, who make good decisions.
They use the ball more effectively, run with it and combine with team mates. They put their team mates into dangerous/attacking positions by kicking it to them.They gain an extra 150- 180 metres for their side over what Longer brings.

These ruckmen create a 3-4 extra shot at goal differential/advantage for their team over what Longer brings (or bring about 3-4 less shots for the opposition, relatively speaking - you could look at it either way). They also take important marks.
It can be looked at in these terms - an extra 3-4 shots at goal. Metres gained is an important stat. That's the way I see it, anyway.

[samoht]

What a ridiculous argument.
We could just not play a ruckman and go with an extra midfielder to get us "metres gained"
Of course we would lose every clearance but hey that doesn't matter.
There would be plenty of opportunity to get metres gained when every centre bounce goes to the opposition goal square before we get the ball back.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion but having a go at Longer for lack of metres gained is moronic.

Who said anything about replacing a ruckman with a midfielder? You do need a contest in the ruck!
But the point is a good ruckman does all the things I've suggested - take marks, gain metres for his team as well as compete in the ruck.

And re: hitouts -
Cox and Nat averaged 30 more hitouts as a combo than the average - yet it didn't result in 30 more clearances for their team - their team didn't average 30 more clearances or even 15 more clearances - maybe it was 3 or 4 at the most above the average team - and this is from the best ever and most dominant ruck duo - which suggests the hitouts for the most part end up going anywhere (if the best at it can't make it work for their team).
It's not a controlled situation.

Knobel won 22 hitouts (Kosi only won 13 that day) in the prelim final vs Port Adelaide and had no possessions - but one of Knobel's hitouts which he clearly won went to Wanganeen who kicked the winning goal. He won the most hitouts that day - whoopey do!
That's how important hitouts are - and why ruckmen need to be footballers first and foremost.

[dragit]

These ruckmen create a 3-4 extra shot at goal differential/advantage for their team

I love your completely made up stats.

[samoht]

These ruckmen create a 3-4 extra shot at goal differential/advantage for their team

I love your completely made up stats.

It's the way I see it, that's all.

You mean to say Kruezer doesn't make this sort of difference to his team by gaining another 180 metres over Longer, by taking important marks, by kicking it long and setting up team mates in dangerous positions - by putting his team on the front foot and closer to goal by another 180 metres?

I think he does (I think it's got to make a 3-4 shot at goal difference - if it's quantified?).

[The Fireman]

Is Stonecold Billy Longers mother ????

[Sock Puppet]

So Stonecold, can you name another clubs number 1 ruckman who Billy is a better player than?

For starters, compare Billy to other Ruckman in the league he's age, he is a developing ruck, not a seasoned Ruckman such the other number 1's at other clubs!!!!!