Longer!!!!!

[dragit]

Gawn had 8 kicks, 8 handballs, took 5 marks and kicked 1.1 (from marks in the forward line)- and gave away a number of free kicks in the ruck merry go around

Gawn playing for St Kilda and St Kilda win

May I remind you that prior to this season we have beaten Melbourne time in memorial - and this season they have beaten us twice including in a season defining game last weekend

So why has this been the case?

And particularly as we had the "benefit" of Longer's "contribution" last weekend?

Longer took 1 mark - so he had a very good game by his standards

I focus on how we can address our weaknesses so that our future is enhanced over and above our past

I also note there is no McCartin/Petracca comment

With McCartin we have won that one - easily

One can only assume that you didn't actually watch the match judging from this post.

[Crossy66]

Gawn had 8 kicks, 8 handballs, took 5 marks and kicked 1.1 (from marks in the forward line)- and gave away a number of free kicks in the ruck merry go around

Gawn playing for St Kilda and St Kilda win

May I remind you that prior to this season we have beaten Melbourne time in memorial - and this season they have beaten us twice including in a season defining game last weekend

So why has this been the case?

And particularly as we had the "benefit" of Longer's "contribution" last weekend?

Longer took 1 mark - so he had a very good game by his standards

I focus on how we can address our weaknesses so that our future is enhanced over and above our past

I also note there is no McCartin/Petracca comment

With McCartin we have won that one - easily

One can only assume that you didn't actually watch the match judging from this post.

Thought we were over the Billy bashing.
Gawn said he was soundly beaten by Billy
Billy the only saint to get coaches votes
Petrie comes out in the WA news and says Longer was the difference
Every commentator has jumped on board
etc etc etc
Seems the only ones who havent are a few StKilda "supporters"

I think the big improvement to come will be actually going for marks. Billy gets to the contest but is happy to spoil. I think he just needs a little confidence and to stop reading this SS forum

[stonecold]

Good post Crossy and Dragit, but 'That particular Poster' won't take any of that common sense on board, based on previous history, he/she is a serial Billy basher!!!!!

As you are aware, Billy is continuing to improve and will continue to so!!!!!

He may well even finish Top 10 in our B & F!!!!!

[WellardSaint]

Good post Crossy and Dragit, but 'That particular Poster' won't take any of that common sense on board, based on previous history, he/she is a serial Billy basher!!!!!

As you are aware, Billy is continuing to improve and will continue to so!!!!!

He may well even finish Top 10 in our B & F!!!!!

I understand that Billy has a huge heart bigger than Phar Lap, and he works his bum off, and he's improving, and he'd be in the top 4 rucks in the comp now...
but do you love the big unit because you (Stonefish) are a big unit yourself?

You had said that
-you're about 3 inches shorter than the Eureka Tower
-CASA insists you wear a yellow beacon on your Saints beany to warn low-flying aircraft
- there's a 10 degree difference in temperature between your feet and your head, due to altitude
-at Etihad, they ask you to sit down before they can close the roof

I think you might be biased just a tad

Go Saints !!! to hell with the rest !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stonecold]

Play nice now Welly, I never said any of those things, no baiting Stonecold now please!!!!!

Stick to what you know!!!!!

[sunsaint]

Stick to what you know!!!!!

you are right - lets stick to facts
1/3 of Billys possessions came from Gawn free kicks
seeing how you are all over things ruck
just wondering what you thought of the infringements?
and Gawns' statement he gave up on contesting the ruck dual to avoid being constantly penalised?

[magnifisaint]

Then technically Billy is a better ruckman.

[WellardSaint]

Stick to what you know!!!!!

you are right - lets stick to facts
1/3 of Billys possessions came from Gawn free kicks
seeing how you are all over things ruck
just wondering what you thought of the infringements?
and Gawns' statement he gave up on contesting the ruck dual to avoid being constantly penalised?

I'm sure the Dees' coaches would be thrilled to see Gawn admitted to "tanking"

How will that go in the post game review at Mt Buller, I wonder?

[Crossy66]

Stick to what you know!!!!!

you are right - lets stick to facts
1/3 of Billys possessions came from Gawn free kicks
seeing how you are all over things ruck
just wondering what you thought of the infringements?
and Gawns' statement he gave up on contesting the ruck dual to avoid being constantly penalised?

I'm sure the Dees' coaches would be thrilled to see Gawn admitted to "tanking"

How will that go in the post game review at Mt Buller, I wonder?

Re the infringements, Gawn knew he couldnt out jump Billy so he deviced a tactic to use his arm to protect space at the drop of the ball - thats not allowed. I dont think he gave up. Maybe gave up new ideas.
The best part of Billy's game were when Gawn tried to take him to the forward line and Billy spoilt him half a dozen times. Not sure he would have kept up in the first half of the year.
He has really improved his ground work and clearance work. i just dont get why anyone would be unhappy with his development and big step up in the last few months.

[WellardSaint]

Stick to what you know!!!!!

you are right - lets stick to facts
1/3 of Billys possessions came from Gawn free kicks
seeing how you are all over things ruck
just wondering what you thought of the infringements?
and Gawns' statement he gave up on contesting the ruck dual to avoid being constantly penalised?

I'm sure the Dees' coaches would be thrilled to see Gawn admitted to "tanking"

How will that go in the post game review at Mt Buller, I wonder?

Re the infringements, Gawn knew he couldnt out jump Billy so he deviced a tactic to use his arm to protect space at the drop of the ball - thats not allowed. I dont think he gave up. Maybe gave up new ideas.
The best part of Billy's game were when Gawn tried to take him to the forward line and Billy spoilt him half a dozen times. Not sure he would have kept up in the first half of the year.
He has really improved his ground work and clearance work. i just dont get why anyone would be unhappy with his development and big step up in the last few months.

I am very happy that he has found a spot and is getting better all the time.
He, like the other players, does all the running, gym work, training, listening, and he has really shone and is very valuable now. I would say in the top 4 rucks in the comp, now

[Proph3t of egan]

Good post Crossy and Dragit, but 'That particular Poster' won't take any of that common sense on board, based on previous history, he/she is a serial Billy basher!!!!!

As you are aware, Billy is continuing to improve and will continue to so!!!!!

He may well even finish Top 10 in our B & F!!!!!

I understand that Billy has a huge heart bigger than Phar Lap, and he works his bum off, and he's improving, and he'd be in the top 4 rucks in the comp now...
but do you love the big unit because you (Stonefish) are a big unit yourself?

You had said that
-you're about 3 inches shorter than the Eureka Tower
-CASA insists you wear a yellow beacon on your Saints beany to warn low-flying aircraft
- there's a 10 degree difference in temperature between your feet and your head, due to altitude
-at Etihad, they ask you to sit down before they can close the roof

I think you might be biased just a tad

Go Saints !!! to hell with the rest !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my absolute favorite post of this year so far, ticks all the boxes

[sunsaint]

"I gave away free kicks that I've never given away in my life. I don't know why they were free kicks but they kept on blowing the whistle, so I was getting a bit frustrated," Gawn told ABC radio after the game.

"I ended up having to let Billy Longer just win them in the end, because I didn't know what to do."

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-08-15/c ... awn-frees-

[Proph3t of egan]

"I gave away free kicks that I've never given away in my life. I don't know why they were free kicks but they kept on blowing the whistle, so I was getting a bit frustrated," Gawn told ABC radio after the game.

"I ended up having to let Billy Longer just win them in the end, because I didn't know what to do."

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-08-15/c ... awn-frees-

helped focus it for you, you're welcome

[stonecold]

Stick to what you know!!!!!

you are right - lets stick to facts
1/3 of Billys possessions came from Gawn free kicks
seeing how you are all over things ruck
just wondering what you thought of the infringements?
and Gawns' statement he gave up on contesting the ruck dual to avoid being constantly penalised?

You want an honest answer, Gawn was having trouble with Billy's leap, so tried to use a straight arm block to make Bill miss time he's jump, which is not legal, thus, the free kicks!!!!!

[dragit]

I would say in the top 4 rucks in the comp, now

He was flogged by a second gamer a few weeks ago and I can think of about a dozen better ruckmen, but he is definitely improving.

[saints66]

I will take some of that pie @stonecold. I was not sold on Billy early and was a Hickey man. Billy has had an opportunity, worked at his game and improved tremendously. He still has someway to go but deservingly he is our Number 1 ruckman now. I seem to remember he was in 2015 but was overtaken by Hickey in 2016.

Great to have competition between two potentially top rucks. Dont know where this is going but it can only be to our benefit having two young capable rucks working on their game.

[Spinner]

What a game by Longer - destroyed Gawn.

[samuraisaint]

Stick to what you know!!!!!

you are right - lets stick to facts
1/3 of Billys possessions came from Gawn free kicks
seeing how you are all over things ruck
just wondering what you thought of the infringements?
and Gawns' statement he gave up on contesting the ruck dual to avoid being constantly penalised?

That means Billy outsmarted him. Gawn was found out and Billy took advantage. Well played. I still think Hickey is better around the ground, but the fact that Billy gave us the momentum in the third quarter cannot be denied.

[Crossy66]

I would say in the top 4 rucks in the comp, now

He was flogged by a second gamer a few weeks ago and I can think of about a dozen better ruckmen, but he is definitely improving.

who flogged who a few weeks ago?

[samoht]

Longer's metres gained per game average this year is 13 metres!
Which means he treats the ball like a hot potato - doesn't kick it - just gets rid of it.

Max Gawn's metres gained per game average this year is 130 metres - which is not great either, but at least he gets some kicks in there too, and provides some drive for his team.
I think Stefan Martin gains close to 200 metres per game for his team.

We need a ruckman who is good around the ground, takes marks, kicks the ball and provides drive (even if it's 100 metres worth - it's still way better than 13 metres).
I'd rather Pierce in the ruck, or even a tall pinch hitter who contributes around the ground.

This fascination with tapouts and raw hitout numbers is misguided --
WCE dominated the hitouts when they had both Cox and Nat playing in the ruck, but this dominance didn't translate into more clearances for their team - it's the around the ground contribution of Cox with his marks and kicks, the drive he provided with his 20 individual possessions, his goal saving and goal kicking marks that made the real difference. That's where his worth was and what made him great.

[shrodes]

Longer's metres gained per game average this year is 13 metres!
Which means he treats the ball like a hot potato - doesn't kick it - just gets rid of it.

Max Gawn's metres gained per game average this year is 130 metres - which is not great either, but at least he gets some kicks in there too, and provides some drive for his team.
I think Stefan Martin gains close to 200 metres per game for his team.

We need a ruckman who is good around the ground, takes marks, kicks the ball and provides drive (even if it's 100 metres worth - it's still way better than 13 metres).
I'd rather Pierce in the ruck, or even a tall pinch hitter who contributes around the ground.

This fascination with tapouts and raw hitout numbers is misguided --
WCE dominated the hitouts when they had both Cox and Nat playing in the ruck, but this dominance didn't translate into more clearances for their team - it's the around the ground contribution of Cox with his marks and kicks, the drive he provided with his 20 individual possessions, his goal saving and goal kicking marks that made the real difference. That's where his worth was and what made him great.

Longer is only 24 which means he has decent upside. I have noticed him clunking a few marks and even backing himself to kick on occasion too over the last month or so.

[samoht]

Longer's showing something in some recent games - I agree, shrodes - to be fair.
Pierce impressed me in a recent game playing as a key back - he moves well. He and Marshall were played as key defenders vs Casey.

[stonecold]

Longer's showing something in some games - I agree, shrodes - to be fair.
Pierce impressed me in a recent game playing as a key back - he moves well. He and Marshall were played as key defenders vs Casey.

Maybe that's Pierce's go, cause he airnt a Ruckman, so let's hope he continues to develop as a Key Position prospect!!!!!

[samoht]

Longer's showing something in some games - I agree, shrodes - to be fair.
Pierce impressed me in a recent game playing as a key back - he moves well. He and Marshall were played as key defenders vs Casey.

Maybe that's Pierce's go, cause he airnt a Ruckman, so let's hope he continues to develop as a Key Position prospect!!!!!

'

The thing is a ruckman has to be a good footballer, they can't hide behind their hitouts and be a passenger around the ground. I mean the best of the best hitout combo in Cox and Nat didn't help their team win more clearances.
'
Little Gresham took 8 or 9 marks last week vs Longer's one.

[To the top]

So this is still going!!!!!

I'll point you to 2 efforts by St Kilda ruckmen that impacted on the result of a game.

1. Michael Gardiner v Geelong at Docklands.
2. Jason Blake (yes!) v Hawthorn at Docklands when we turned a game on its head after half time.

I note a reference to Longer spoiling Gawn inside the Melbourne F50 arc on multiple occasions (and Gawn kicked 1 and hit the post with another).

Well, I did not notice that but, then again, I do not wear Longer rose colored glasses waiting for him to actually take a mark or win a kick (except a free kick, where Gawn gave him a few).

The question I have tho, is that Gawn was going forward, obviously.

We again lost with only Bruce and the 188cm Membrey playing forward (and Bruce rucking as did Brown - once!).

Given the lack of tall options forward, did Longer drag Gawn to our F50?

Were we able to "park" Longer forward to rest him from ruck duties so we could "hit the square"?

In fact, given in the two games I mentioned, both Gardiner and Blake kicked 4 goals apiece, what danger does Longer bring to scoreboard pressure?

Longer is what he is, competitive in the ruck contest with his big body (given he gets to the contest aka Ryder), otherwise as honest as the day is long, no doubt liked by his fellow players but a very, very, very long way short from what we need if we are to add to our 1966 Premiership.

Yes, he is "only" 24 - but that is no excuse.

The tools to do what Gardiner and Blake did are absent.

Longer simply does not win the ball, overhead or at ground level and is a liability.

Look at his stats.

We have to get Hickey fit and firing to progress.

The end equation is that, with Longer in the side and the game being our most important for some years, St Kilda lost the game.

That is the starting point.

Not rose colored glasses.

That should be good for another volley of 10 or so pages!!!