At what point do you cease supporting, and start resenting?

[Con Gorozidis]

How do you think our football department system would have looked this year if we didn't add Carlisle, Brown, Steele and Stevens to the team?

Exactly.
Everyone here is claiming we improved from last year because we didn't have the 100+ point blow outs but that can be put down purely to Brown and Carlisle stopping a few goals from tall fwds. That's it.

I'm not sure what your expectations were for this year but we are in the region that most non-biased fans would have predicted, the 8-11th range.

There are 8 - 10 better sides than us this year, but if you thought we were top 4 material then I can see why you would be disappointed.

The football department can do whatever they like, it isn't going to hide the fact that we have a pretty ordinary list and we had a very tough draw this year.

My expectation was 10th.
We are as average I expected.
So I'm not disappointed.
But the idea we are on track for top 4 is ludicrous and the thing I am challenging.
Other sides won't just get worse. Every side is bringing in talented youth.
We had about 16 games at Etihad. Hardly a tough draw.

[dragit]

How do you think our football department system would have looked this year if we didn't add Carlisle, Brown, Steele and Stevens to the team?

Exactly.
Everyone here is claiming we improved from last year because we didn't have the 100+ point blow outs but that can be put down purely to Brown and Carlisle stopping a few goals from tall fwds. That's it.

I'm not sure what your expectations were for this year but we are in the region that most non-biased fans would have predicted, the 8-11th range.

There are 8 - 10 better sides than us this year, but if you thought we were top 4 material then I can see why you would be disappointed.

The football department can do whatever they like, it isn't going to hide the fact that we have a pretty ordinary list and we had a very tough draw this year.

The football department's job is to the improve players, and improve the team.

They're failing.

Yeah I think you predicted earlier this year that no player on the list had any improvement in them so I know you'll cling on to that prediction to the death.

I think a good 8-10 players have clearly improved this year, a few vets have dropped off and retired since last year so we are treading water ladder wise.

[dragit]

My expectation was 10th.
We are as average I expected.
So I'm not disappointed.
But the idea we are on track for top 4 is ludicrous and the thing I am challenging.
Other sides won't just get worse. Every side is bringing in talented youth.
We had about 16 games at Etihad. Hardly a tough draw.

Tue 01 Nov 2016 7:23pm

My prediction for next year:

GWS
Bulldogs
Crows
Saints
Swans
Demons
Cats
Bombers
Eagles
Hawks

The rest

http://saintsational.net/viewtopic.php? ... 2&start=25

And our draw was considered one of the toughest in the comp by most, we only play one side below us twice.

[Johnny Member]

Yeah I think you predicted earlier this year that no player on the list had any improvement in them so I know you'll cling on to that prediction to the death.

Well that is just a lie.

[meher baba]

Ok.

How do you think our football department system would have looked this year if we didn't add Carlisle, Brown, Steele and Stevens to the team?

I'm not sure of the point of this question. As in any other year, the club should be acquiring additional talent, and the new talent should be contributing to our onfield performance. The whole setup needs to be looked at holistically.

I look at the state of the club, the playing list and the coaching strategy at this point in time and I believe there has been an improvement since the end of 2016. It hasn't translated into an improvement in our position on the ladder, which is somewhat disappointing, but there have been glimpses throughout the season that the team is capable of performing at the level required to make at least the second last week of the football year in 2018 or 2019: particularly if, as we all hope, we can bring in some proven talent from another club or clubs during the off-season.

To me, we look quite capable of making the finals over the next few years. We're certainly not awash with major talent in the way that we were in 2003-04, but, as I posted earlier, we have quite a consistent level of talent across the field, with the forward line being our only significant problem.

I really don't know what you or some of the others on here expect. The current club leadership - Summers, Finnis, Bains, Richo, etc. - took over after we hit rock bottom during a period of poor club leadership, terrible coaching and shocking recruiting. Perhaps they haven't performed perfectly, but they weren't dealt a particularly easy hand. At first, the draft process was compromised by the assistance given to the Gold Coast and the Giants. No matter how much we would like to have had a repeat of our drafting success in the early 2000s (which some on here don't acknowledge anyway because they can't get over the fact that we passed on Judd), it wasn't possible. We've had early draft picks in a few years in which there have been pretty lean pickings: maybe we could have chosen the Bont ahead of Billings, but I reckon Billings is pretty good. And, while McCartin might sadly turn out to be a non-performer, it's not as if Petracca looked all that great on Sunday. And even the Bont isn't a Riewoldt, Hodge or Judd.

What the current club leadership has been able to do is to recruit the likes of Roberton, Carlisle and Membrey (all of whom are a cut above "moneyball" level IMO) and Bruce, Brown and Stevens. (I had probably better not mention Weller at this stage, although I for one haven't written him off). And the football department has developed Ross, Newnes, Webster, Billings, Gresham, Longer, etc. And Richo has moulded all the talent we have into a cohesive team with an effective game plan. Sure, the execution hasn't always been up to scratch, and that needs to be worked on.

But I reckon the people in charge since 2013 have done pretty well with what they were given when they started. And they've been able to save up money and draft picks to try to do more.

But I realise it's no good trying to change someone's mind when they are in the meltdown phase.

[dragit]

Yeah I think you predicted earlier this year that no player on the list had any improvement in them so I know you'll cling on to that prediction to the death.

Well that is just a lie.

okay…

Ok, I'll admit it - I'm cynical about our prospects this season and beyond.

I'd argue that outside of Gresham and last year's draftees - no one else will get much better than they will be this season.

So we have a bunch of players that you don't think will improve, but you are also singling out our development team for not turning the same players into superstars?

Dat's pretty funky.

Longer, Acres, Billings, Steele, Membrey, Sinclair, White, McKenzie, Lonie, McCartin, Goddard - all pretty much at their peak right now.

[Johnny Member]

Yeah I think you predicted earlier this year that no player on the list had any improvement in them so I know you'll cling on to that prediction to the death.

Well that is just a lie.

okay…

Ok, I'll admit it - I'm cynical about our prospects this season and beyond.

I'd argue that outside of Gresham and last year's draftees - no one else will get much better than they will be this season.

So we have a bunch of players that you don't think will improve, but you are also singling out our development team for not turning the same players into superstars?

Dat's pretty funky.

Longer, Acres, Billings, Steele, Membrey, Sinclair, White, McKenzie, Lonie, McCartin, Goddard - all pretty much at their peak right now.

How about you read that quote again. Slowly this time.

[Johnny Member]

But I realise it's no good trying to change someone's mind when they are in the meltdown phase.

Meltdown phase?

Would you care to point how my attitude and/opinion has differed from the pre-season?


Accusing someone of a 'meltdown' is a pretty soft throwaway line to hide behind when you don't like what they're saying.

[Proph3t of egan]

But I realise it's no good trying to change someone's mind when they are in the meltdown phase.

Meltdown phase?

Would you care to point how my attitude and/opinion has differed from the pre-season?


Accusing someone of a 'meltdown' is a pretty soft throwaway line to hide behind when you don't like what they're saying.

Really don't see you come on here after a win and say this stuff, to me looks like a reaction to a loss

[meher baba]

But I realise it's no good trying to change someone's mind when they are in the meltdown phase.

Meltdown phase?

Would you care to point how my attitude and/opinion has differed from the pre-season?


Accusing someone of a 'meltdown' is a pretty soft throwaway line to hide behind when you don't like what they're saying.

My comment wasn't meant to be specifically directed at you, but at a sentiment expressed on this forum since Saturday by a number of posters (and by more on Big Footy, if anyone is interested in looking over there).

If you want specific feedback about your own posts: well, yes, I can agree with you that you've been pretty negative about the team all season. It must be extremely gratifying for you that we haven't made the 8 this year and that you can therefore feel that you were right.

I neither like nor dislike what you have been saying. On the whole, I have found it irrelevant, as I don't understand the benchmark against which you are assessing the club. As I have already pointed out, we were in a bad way at the end of 2013. We had been wasteful and ineffective in our recruitment for about 5 years, our list didn't look like capable of going anywhere, the team's morale was shot, and we were looking set to become a long-term basket case.

I'm saying that, given that we were in that situation only four years ago, I reckon Summers, Finnis, Richo et al have done a pretty good job in turning things around. Our playing list, while not good enough to win a flag, has improved significantly over what it was at the end of 2013. Our team morale appears to be pretty good, and the players seem settled. It's far from a perfect situation, but look where we started.

So, in short, I'm assessing the club against the benchmark of how we were four years ago. What's your benchmark: how the Giants or Swans are going? Or, to make perhaps a fairer comparison, how Hawthorn and Geelong have been over the last decade?

If the latter, I will return to my point that, if we had wanted to be like Hawthorn and Geelong over the past decade, we wouldn't have started from where we started: that is, after three years of being one of the top teams in the comp, we wouldn't have sacked our coach, then our chairman and then our CEO (after he had effectively engineered the sacking of the coach and chairman). We would have stuck to the strategy that had brought us the success we had enjoyed. Instead, we rolled the dice and brought in a super coach who, thank goodness, turned out to be one (given that his main recommendation seems to have been that Robert Walls liked him, he might well have not turned out to be any good). But the super coach was more inclined to use up resources rather than build them up, so he left us in 2011 in a terrible mess which was then made worse by Nettlefold, Watters, Pelchen, etc.

So, between 2006 and 2013, we weren't following the path of the consistently successful clubs. So the current regime has been starting from a long way back. It's therefore completely unfair not to cut them a fair bit of slack. Come back in 2019 and, if we are still languishing in the middle of the table, I'll agree with you that they have failed. But, until then, I don't see your analysis as being relevant to anything much, other than to tell us what we already know: ie, that quite a few other clubs (some with a fair bit of help from the AFL) have managed themselves into a better current position than us.

[thejiggingsaint]

The burning question for me is..............

Can this thread get to SIX pages?!

[WellardSaint]

The burning question for me is..............

Can this thread get to SIX pages?!

what about your posts? 7804 currently,
what happens at 8000? Do you get a grease and oil change and rotate your tyres?
flush the radiator and add some medicinal compound?

[Teflon]

I know it's a big call, but I reckon this is the worst thread I've ever read in my 12 or so years of reading threads on Saintsational. A lot of carrying on about nothing much by a poster who I find it difficult to take at all seriously, and whose only supporters seem to be posters with whom I regularly find myself in disagreement.

We had an ok season. Quite a few players took some forward strides in their development - Ross, Sinclair, Billings, Webster, White, Membrey, Gresham, Longer - and some new faces at the club went well too: Carlisle, Brown, Steele, Stevens. After looking like his career was over, Savage made quite a good comeback later in the season. For sure, Jack Steven didn't have a great year, and I was also a bit disappointed in Newnes, Bruce and several others. But, on the whole, I still think the team is going forward rather than backwards.

In the end, Melbourne beat us by not that much in a game on their home ground (where we hadn't played all season) and in which they had a bit of luck on their side. If we'd beaten Melbourne, we'd have probably made the finals and would have had a measurable improvement over 2016. But it looks like the end result for 2017 isn't going to be any better than 2016.

But I still think that, on the whole, we are improving. If we can snare some talent over the off season - ideally Kelly, but perhaps there are other options - then I'm confident we'll make the finals next year.

I hope/trust that those in charge of the club don't panic and do something drastic like sack Richo. Our club's biggest problem is that we have panicked and then chopped and changed too much over the years. Unfashionable though my view is, I still regret that we were unable to stick with Thomas beyond 2006. My preference for the club has always been that we plan for the long-term and try to turn ourselves into one of the top clubs. I think that, after we abandoned that goal between 2006 and 2013, the current leadership of the club is now on that journey.

Of course there will be ups and downs along the way. Yesterday was a down moment, but I for one will be keeping the faith.

2017 isn't better than 2016 but on the whole.....we've improved?
Just odd.
And fancy you not liking a thread cause people who think it's ok to question the club and have an opinion are ones you don't usually agree with cause your in blind faith mode??
Let me guess.... bring back GT and all will be right again?

[rodgerfox]

Hate to say it, but I think Johnny is no longer alone in this view!

[iwantmeseats]

Something will click with the team next year at some stage or hopefully it starts at the beginning of next year. It may even occur in 2019.

I think we're in a similar kind of position and it reminds of when Ross Lyon was in his 2nd year back in 2008. We were treading water, destined to be a good ordinary side and then bang...something clicked and the Saints made the top 4 that year unexpectedly. Then we made the GF 2 years straight and barely lost a home and away game.

Part of following a sports team is riding the highs and lows of going up and down the ladder. Lets be honest, the Hawks are probably the only side that has truly avoided that in the past 10 years.

Except the 08 side was chock full of champions and great players. This ‘18 side has not ONE a grader. No not even Carlisle in my opinion.