Our Moneyball type rebuild has failed.

[saintsRrising]

The St Kilda rebuild has been built on trying to get players that others have passed on, that we believe are better value. Our recruiters have tried to be too clever and while there have been some successes, overall the result lacks quality. There have been some successes, but on the whole our draft picks are an under-perform. And remember too that we let BJ and Dal go to get extra picks. And so this under-performance is worse as it is from a basis of having more picks. We have traded dearly to get young rucks in, but neither are good ruckmen.

Our rebuild has failed without even making the finals. We need to commence Rebuild Mark 2.

Problem is that on the whole our recruiting department have not been clever in getting players that others should have passed on. If I hear our recruiters say one more time that player X has slipped, and we cannot believe we got them so cheap I will puke. They clearly have in the main slipped for a reason.

Time to overhaul our burgeoning recruiting department to actually get people that can make reasonable decisions on who to draft. if not then we will just keep repeating our selections and gain yet more poorly skilled players that good teams pass on.

We are way, way, off the pace of any team with a genuine chance at the flag, with a team lacking skill and pace. Gameplan and coaching is a whole other discussion. However are people and processes in picking the right players is not of a suitable standard.

This coming draft and trade period will probably make or break us as we have way too many depth players, and way too few genuinely good players.

The Saints have been beating the drum for a while about creating a huge war-chest to land some guns. Well the time is now, and unless a genuinely good gun or two is landed in this trade period I genuinely fear for the competitive future of the Saints. So hopefully Bains and Co can deliver on all the hype.

[saintspremiers]

Great post if we deliver up more shyte next week the big fish may choose to swim past our pond and go elsewhere though.

[saintsRrising]

Great post if we deliver up more shyte next week the big fish may choose to swim past our pond and go elsewhere though.

Indeed.. I have read that some people think we are a "destination club" now. They are dreaming.

[Scollop]

The Nathan Brown recruitment will haunt me for another 2 years. Let's hope Hughy or someone else can replace him sooner rather than later

[bobmurray]

We are Farked.. We have been rebuilding for 51 years and we are still way way off the pace.

[White Winmar]

A destination for players like the ones described by SR. "Almost" types. I still believe our recruiting and development coaches have a lot to answer for. When you look at our recruiting under Elshaug, it has been below average at best. Numerous picks that we let good players go for have been busts, early picks have yet to bear fruit. Too many average types, no guns, apart from Carlisle, yet. Ross and Gresham might yet get there, but that is an appalling return for five years of numerous early and top 20 picks.

If we are to be a destination club for elite players, we are not doing ourselves any favours ATM. Hawthorn looms large and even Carlton might have more appeal. Fortunately, Norf's in worse shape than us, so I doubt anyone will go there. What happened to the strategy of only recruiting elite kicks, supposedly implemented by the Pelican? A definite bust on that score.

[bobmurray]

A destination for players like the ones described by SR. "Almost" types. I still believe our recruiting and development coaches have a lot to answer for. When you look at our recruiting under Elshaug, it has been below average at best. Numerous picks that we let good players go for have been busts, early picks have yet to bear fruit. Too many average types, no guns, apart from Carlisle, yet. Ross and Gresham might yet get there, but that is an appalling return for five years of numerous early and top 20 picks.

If we are to be a destination club for elite players, we are not doing ourselves any favours ATM. Hawthorn looms large and even Carlton might have more appeal. Fortunately, Norf's in worse shape than us, so I doubt anyone will go there. What happened to the strategy of only recruiting elite kicks, supposedly implemented by the Pelican? A definite bust on that score.

The pelican knew what he was doing which meant he had no place at the Saints. We prefer farkwits making decisions. Mission accomplished.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

If I hear our recruiters say one more time that player X has slipped, and we cannot believe we got them so cheap I will puke. .

I'll puke if I hear someone say one more time that this year's draft is make or break time.

We've had those five years in a row with precious few results.

[saintsRrising]

.

If we are to be a destination club for elite players, we are not doing ourselves any favours ATM. .

If a destination club is one that players will choose to join in preference and at a lower wage than the market rate for them, then 1/ We have not become that and 2/ We certainly will not be that by this draft period or next year.

I hope like hell that Kelly has already agreed to have joined us, for if has not then his interest must be rapidly waning.

At this stage we may well be hitting the draft with our two draft first round draft picks. And the St Kilda pick may well be earlier than our Hawthorn pick now. But neither Top 5 picks.

[Johnny Member]

??

I said this in March and was mauled for it.

[Jacks Back]

Too many average types, no guns, apart from Carlisle, yet.

Carlisle is SO over rated on here it's not funny. He is too weak for such a 'big' man and picks and chooses when he goes for the ball. If he was a star he would be taking 10+ intercept marks every game like a Fisher or a Demspter used to (not once in every 6 or 7 games).

[White Winmar]

The general consensus is he's been very good this year, especially for a guy who's missed 12 months of footy. Tonight was his first poor game for the year. Most week's he's been very good.

[SuperSaint]

A destination for players like the ones described by SR. "Almost" types. I still believe our recruiting and development coaches have a lot to answer for. When you look at our recruiting under Elshaug, it has been below average at best. Numerous picks that we let good players go for have been busts, early picks have yet to bear fruit. Too many average types, no guns, apart from Carlisle, yet. Ross and Gresham might yet get there, but that is an appalling return for five years of numerous early and top 20 picks.

If we are to be a destination club for elite players, we are not doing ourselves any favours ATM. Hawthorn looms large and even Carlton might have more appeal. Fortunately, Norf's in worse shape than us, so I doubt anyone will go there. What happened to the strategy of only recruiting elite kicks, supposedly implemented by the Pelican? A definite bust on that score.

Good post. Definitely below average recruiting at best.

[The OtherThommo]

A destination for players like the ones described by SR. "Almost" types. I still believe our recruiting and development coaches have a lot to answer for. When you look at our recruiting under Elshaug, it has been below average at best. Numerous picks that we let good players go for have been busts, early picks have yet to bear fruit. Too many average types, no guns, apart from Carlisle, yet. Ross and Gresham might yet get there, but that is an appalling return for five years of numerous early and top 20 picks.

If we are to be a destination club for elite players, we are not doing ourselves any favours ATM. Hawthorn looms large and even Carlton might have more appeal. Fortunately, Norf's in worse shape than us, so I doubt anyone will go there. What happened to the strategy of only recruiting elite kicks, supposedly implemented by the Pelican? A definite bust on that score.

Generally with ya, WW, but I'd step up one from Elshaug - the much heralded?

As far as the thread subject goes, Richo and the Much Heralded are not Billy Beane & Paul DePodesta.

So say the results.

[meher baba]

Talk about an overreaction.

The club continues to build. We have some good talent we have developed ourselves: Webster, Ross, Gresham, Newnes, etc. We have also brought in some good players from elsewhere, most of whom are still young and developing.

As I have posted often enough on this forum, our main problem ATM is that we don't have much depth, especially outside the midfield. We have desperately missed Membrey over the past two games. We also really missed Longer against the Bombers and Gilbert last night. That's the stage we're at: we are good enough to beat just about anyone on our day, but we need everything to go right, especially up forward.

I still see a lot of upside, if we can recruit well over the next two years.

[SaintPav]

Not an overreaction. All the signs are there that the way the team and club is set up we'll be treading water, then probably go backwards.

Club needs an overhaul in recruiting, development and coaching.

It's becoming obvious.

[saintsRrising]

Talk about an overreaction.

The club continues to build. We have some good talent we have developed ourselves: Webster, Ross, Gresham, Newnes, etc. We have also brought in some good players from elsewhere, most of whom are still young and developing.

As I have posted often enough on this forum, our main problem ATM is that we don't have much depth, especially outside the midfield. We have desperately missed Membrey over the past two games. We also really missed Longer against the Bombers and Gilbert last night. That's the stage we're at: we are good enough to beat just about anyone on our day, but we need everything to go right, especially up forward.

I still see a lot of upside, if we can recruit well over the next two years.

We have been rebuilding since 2011 finished. That is six years. Another two years to recruit, and then what? That will be eight years. Eight years in the wilderness before we can start to be a really competitive team again? At this rate a number of the kids we have gained will have finished playing before we are ready to have a crack again.

We have some good talent? Yes we do, but not enough. Every club even if they pick poorly will have some good talent.

The club continues to build? On form, right here and now we do not have one elite player. Not one. Roo is not what he was and Steven has been tagged out of games more often than not. Ross has become very good, but will not be elite till he hurts the opposition.

We are good enough to beat anyone on our day? This season against teams in form we have been rubbish if they have turned up to play with the exception of GWS. The Tigers played like witches hats for the first half. So basically only ONCE against quality opponents who have turned up to play have the Saints put in an acceptable performance. And remember that you can lose and still play well. Against good teams this season we have in the main been poor.


The harsh reality is right here and now that:
- Our list is not in good shape and in particular we lack true top end talent
- Our gameplan is fundamentally flawed
- Our development of players seems to be flawed
- For whatever reason the skills of our players are on the whole poor

No something is very fundamentally wrong as St Kilda at present:
- Our drafting and list management team are under-performing
- Our coaches are under-performing. Is it Richo, is it the assistants, is it them all all? I do not know, but the end result we are not a well drilled, well executed team. Good teams crack us open and we wilt badly.
- Our players do not execute well


The Saints are in competition with other teams. The question is not are we doing well when looking at the team with blinkers on, but are they doing well when compared to all the other teams? Are we making progress when compared with them?

This season the signs are not good. The signs are of a team not on the rise, but of one treading water.

It is not too late. There is a basis to work from. But more of the same will just see us as bottom 4 next season.


The club needs to take a good hard cold look at everything and changes are required. What exact changes I do not know. But the list management and coaching teams are not producing the goods at present. If the club just sits on its hands and thinks that everything will come good, will thinks will only get uglier and uglier the next two years.


Up until last night I remained hopeful. Yes the Swans are a a very good team in very good form. But they like any team that us been up and about have exposed us to be pretenders this season. last night my "hope bubble" burst. Just hoping is not going to alter things The club needs to act. What we are doing at present is flawed, it is broken, and we will not become a Top 4 team if we just keep doing what we are doing.

[st.byron]

So is it that we don't have good enough players or that they are good enough, they're just not being developed well?
Whichever it is, something is not right.
This season has been mostly disappointing apart from a couple of stand out games.

[iwantmeseats]

No money. No culture. No professionalism. No hope. Same old story.
Don't be expecting success when you follow st kinda. Lol.

[SaintPav]

and the trolls come out.

[SaintPav]

We have been rebuilding since 2011 finished. That is six years.

In fairness, we started rebuilding around half way through 2013. Though it should have started in 2012 but we got sold a dud and the club believed it.

[meher baba]

We have been rebuilding since 2011 finished. That is six years.

In fairness, we started rebuilding around half way through 2013. Though it should have started in 2012 but we got sold a dud and the club believed it.

Yep: October 2011 was ground zero. And we barely got above ground level until early 2014: indeed, it was only at the beginning of 2015 that I started to get the sense we were going anywhere. Some of you are far too impatient: understandably, given our history. But you can't keep tearing everything down and starting again. We've got an ok base and we need to build on it. Finnis, Bains, Richo et al are good leaders. We'll get somewhere in the next few years, you'll see.

[saintsRrising]

We have been rebuilding since 2011 finished. That is six years.

In fairness, we started rebuilding around half way through 2013. Though it should have started in 2012 but we got sold a dud and the club believed it.

Yep: October 2011 was ground zero. And we barely got above ground level until early 2014: indeed, it was only at the beginning of 2015 that I started to get the sense we were going anywhere. Some of you are far too impatient: understandably, given our history. But you can't keep tearing everything down and starting again. We've got an ok base and we need to build on it. Finnis, Bains, Richo et al are good leaders. We'll get somewhere in the next few years, you'll see.

I hope so. But quite frankly, and sadly, I have lost the faith at present.




There is the basis of a team there. But we lack top end talent offield and on.

I do not think it is a case of tearing everything down and starting again. But equally our offield team is clearly not up to it and some changes are required. Maybe it is just a matter of getting Richo a top assistant coach (none of our current assistants smack of high quality) and a different head recruiter. Maybe it is more.

Just more of the same will only achieve more of the same, and the current portents are grim.

[St DAC]

Really the OP is both true and not true. I agree we lack top end talent at present, and have far too many B graders who are GOPS. We do need another 2/3 A graders to be a genuine flag threat at all, let alone any sort of Favourite. On exposed form this year we are not good enough overall to play finals, and I doubt we will. Even if we somehow scraped in we wouldn't raise much concern amongst the top teams.

But on our day we can mix it with good teams; we've done so at times this year. GWS, Richmond, even Geelong for 3 quarters. But Sydney is just a bad opponent for us; too strong and slick everywhere, and we have no answer for them.

We need to improve across the board, but in particular ball usage just kills us against good opposition. We turn it over way too much, and our supposed elite kicks (Webster, Newnes, Savage et al) are often the main culprits. And they tend to turn it over in the middle where the resulting damage is extreme. Even Essendon kick it far better than we do.

Until our skills improve to the level of good teams we won't be more than a middle ranked side.

[SMS]

????
Membrey - tick
Bruce - tick
Savage - tick
Steele - will be massive tick

The problem? Clearly Hamil as forward coach, fitness coach, possibly richo himself, time to move on rooey and monty - We HAVE the talent time to question how we develop it before its too late.
I got a bad feeling Acres Gresham Billings even lonie would all be the best yougsters in league if they were at geelong or hawks or swans.